Statement from NASRPC

Witcher

This all started with a certain range operator spreading rumours on FB from what I can see.

rowa

Band of sh1t stirrers, i wouldn't trust them as far as i could throw them.

juice1304

I just read this on facebook.

"Wild Deer Association of Ireland
Clarification on the suggestion that proposals to amend firearm licensing in Ireland have been made.

We received a statement claiming An Garda Síochána had made proposals to the Minister for Justice, Equity and Defence Alan Shatter TD suggesting:

The banning of almost all currently licensed handguns, semi-automatic shotguns, pump action shotguns, centre fire semi-automatic rifles, 30 calibre rifles.

We have sought clarification on this matter from An Garda Síochána they have confirmed, while they are regularly in contact with the Department of Justice, Equity and Defence no such proposals have been made by them. They are aware of a review by the department on the licensing of restricted firearms. Furthermore if any amendments were to be made this would involve a full consultation with all stakeholders. The Department of Justice, Equity and Defence have also confirmed this.

Restricted Firearms and Ammunition Order 2008 defined restricted and prohibited weapons. Automatic firearms and their ammunition were declared to be prohibited firearms under the EU Directive on Control of the Acquisition and Possession of Weapons; military-style semi-automatic firearms and semi-automatic firearms which resemble automatic firearms are considered restricted. Shotguns with a magazine capacity of more than three cartridges, long guns over .308 (7.62mm) calibre, rimfire rifles holding more than 10 rounds, all handguns other than air-operated firearms of 4.5mm (.177) calibre and those using .22 rimfire percussion ammunition and designed for use in connection with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee regulations as well as penetrating, explosive or incendiary ammunition, shotgun slugs and sabots were also declared restricted.

While we object to any restriction on licensed hunting practices or competition shooting, of the approx 160,000 licensed firearms in Ireland, approx 1% are classified as restricted, of this approx 40 are restricted rifles i.e. long guns over .308 (7.62mm) calibre, rimfire rifles holding more than 10 rounds.

We have been assured that no restrictions are being considered for licensed deer stalkers or game hunters in Ireland.

Please share & like this post"

Cass

Sparks posted it above.

We are seeking clarification ourselves on the matter.

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

So no guess work there. They simply rang, asked and got an answer.

It absolutely shocks me that more people don't do this. You'd swear we had the PTB on a pillar. They have email and phones and so do we, but for some reason everyone thinks of them as being unreachable.

Must see if we can get something similar, and do what should have been done before this farce was started.

Yup, so I took my own advice and called the DoJ. Here's what they said, in point form:

• Firstly, the Garda Commissioner is legally required under the Firearms Act (and there have been PQs asked in the Dail asking for their progress here) to conduct a review and submit a report to the Minister on the operation of the Firearms Act. That happens annually, so there are always AGS reviews going on and suggestions coming in.

  Firearms Act Section 3E wrote:

  3E.— The Commissioner shall conduct an annual review of the operation of the Firearms Acts 1925 to 2009 and shall submit a report to the Minister specifying the number and classes of certificates and authorisations issued under the Acts. The Minister shall lay a copy of such report before each House of the Oireachtas.

• After Garrett Byrne left last summer and the new head of the firearms unit (Marion Walsh if I remember correctly but I'm lousy with names) came in, the DoJ met with the NARGC and the NASRPC last October (specifically Des Crofton, Declan Cahill, Michael Tope, Lyall Plant and the NARGC chairman whose name I'm after forgetting) and both the Firearms Range Inspector and the new head of the Firearms Unit subsequently went to Harbour House for a demonstration of the sport.
• In the process of that meeting in October, the DoJ told the NARGC and NASRPC that there was a review about to get underway that November with the AGS of how the restricted firearms legislation was being enforced. At that stage of things, the DoJ couldn't get into specifics (for a start they hadn't met the AGS yet), but they'd meet the AGS, and talk through their proposals and would then send them on to the Minister (thus preventing a proposal that wasn't legal or nonsensical from going up the chain). That report is going to go up the chain sometime this month, after which the Minister considers it and then will meet with all the shooting bodies as well as insurers and other stakeholders.
• We wouldn't see everything shut down overnight with the stroke of a pen; we don't know if changes will be made at all but if they were, it would be via a new Act and that's a long, long process (I've gone through two of these, they're not kidding, it's a years-long process -sparks)
• The DoJ is currently inundated with lots of angry people yelling about how the law is about to be changed without consultation at the whim of the AGS. They're finding it a bit hard to keep up with explaining that that's not how this kind of thing works and would in fact be illegal and unconstitutional, let alone likely.
• The DoJ and Minister will be meeting with the shooting bodies about this if the Minister decides to do anything about the report, which isn't a given.
• The AGS (specifically the Firearms Policy Unit) have also met with the NASRPC and NTSA late last year, so there are communication channels open there.
• Nobody has seen the proposals yet because the report hasn't been finalised, they're confidential because the AGS wouldn't meet the DoJ if the DoJ was going to take drafts and publish them.

So that's where the state of play is.

Why anyone thinks this is worthy of the-sky-is-falling levels of panic, I don't know, we've seen far nastier things coming out of that recent DC judgement and that was being hailed as a great victory.

We have the legally required AGS review&report that's been given in every year since 2009, we have the DoJ and the AGS meeting the shooting organisations who are now panicing almost half a year ago and telling them this review was upcoming, and we have everyone talking about this and nobody out in the cold.

I can't take what the WDAI just released and what the DoJ just told me and make it fit what the NARGC and NASRPC have just written in their press release, but personally, I think I believe the WDAI/AGS/DoJ statement to be more accurate.

Sparks

BTW, if you read the chairperson's address in the NASRPC's december newsletter, it specifically mentions the meetings the NASRPC had with the DoJ and the upcoming reviews.

Cass

Sweet baby Jesus. So what we now know is:

• Firslty it's all a farce. Nothing has happened, nothing will happen (at least not immediately and not without consultation with the relevant shooting bodies.
• They knew and met with the DoJ/AGS 5 months ago, were explained to what was going on, and only now decided to scare the living crap out of shooters. For no reason
• They posted multiple notices on their website asking for members to write to the DoJ, politicians and other demanding they stand up for us, when no such action was needed, and as was said above, is actually having the opposite effect.
• They met as the NASRPC/NARGC. So to all that asked where the NTSA, NRAI, IPC, etc. were here is your answer. They are members of the FSIA, but as FSIA did not meet with the DoJ/AGS they were not privy to what was going on.

This is not a case of me or any one individual being right, as i'm sure more than a few of us knew this was scaremongering from the start, but what a load of nonsense (and i'm really trying to remain polite here). For any group to do this is reprehensible. If they done so out of ignorance, you'd be pissed, but could understand it, to a degree. However within a day it has been shown to be crap. They knew it was for 5 months, but stil proceeded with whatever their game was.


I'm pure sickened by this, and also seriously scared of what the people of these organisations are getting up. The damage and harm they have caused in the past and now in the last 2 weeks is unbelievable, and i urge everyone now:

Stop e-mailing Td's/AGS/DoJ.

It's having a negative effect, and is totally unnecessary. You'd be better served e-mailing the NASRPC & NARGC and asking what all this was about.

rowa

It will be good to read their next statement and see how they justify all this nonsense. Personally even though i was told that this was all a hoax, i had a niggling doubt and could see my guns getting chopped up or sold.

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

They are members of the FSIA, but as FSIA did not meet with the DoJ/AGS they were not privy to what was going on.

I could be wrong, but I think it's actually worse than that - the last time I checked, the NASRPC were the ones who were running the FISA.

Background for those who think I've just sneezed on my keyboard again:
Back in 2011, the Federation of Irish Shooting Associations (FISA) replaced the SSAI a while back as the overall umbrella body for the NASRPC, the NRAI, the NSAI, the IBS and the IPC. The idea was that to eliminate the politics and powerplays, they'd just say that every six months, the next group would take over the running of the Federation completely, and then the next and so on, round-robin fashion. That way, why do politics, you get to run it all soon enough anyways. That should eliminate the source of the NASRPC's complaints at the time that the SSAI wasn't a fair representation for them on the FCP (even though it was an NASRPC lad who'd drafted the rules and he was very gung ho about them until he wasn't voted onto the FCP seat by the SSAI).

Apparently, this move didn't work so well, as under the SSAI there were regular meetings with the DoJ and lots of two-way information flow; the DoJ confirmed today that they've never met the FISA at all since 2011 and in fact the lad I was talking to didn't even know what had happened to the SSAI at all.

Perhaps sometimes it's easier to complain about someone else's work than to do it yourself?

Sparks

Not to push the pendulum too far though lads, I don't think you can use the word "hoax". Farce, yes, hoax no. There is a review, it's just that it's something that was flagged a long time ago, it's not being shoved through behind closed doors, everyone knows what's going on, there's a long long period of consultation ahead, and even then if there were to be changes - which is not a given and if the Commissioner keeps embarrassing the Minister then that might have a chilling effect on any AGS proposals here - the Minister would do it via a new Act (wouldn't you spread any blame to the Dail if you could as the Minister? ) and at a dozen stages along the way we get our say.

Should you write to your TD? Well, yes, just not right now. Wait till we see what the story actually is. That could be in a month or two. At that point, yes, a grassroots campaign saying "Hey, we think you should listen to us please" could be a good thing, or it might be completely unnecessary, we just don't know.

There's a phrase in the IT industry - FUD. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. It's a marketing technique used to sell products by making customers worry unnecessarily about competing products (which are actually perfectly sound, if not better than the marketer's product). I think we just got given a large dose of FUD here.

clivej

Who do you believe now??????

E-Mail received from WDAI.


"We received a statement claiming An Garda Síochána had made proposals to the Minister for Justice, Equity and Defence Alan Shatter TD suggesting:

The banning of almost all currently licensed handguns, semi-automatic shotguns, pump action shotguns, centre fire semi-automatic rifles, 30 calibre rifles.

We have sought clarification on this matter from An Garda Síochána they have confirmed, while they are regularly in contact with the Department of Justice, Equity and Defence no such proposals have been made by them. They are aware of a review by the department of justice on the licensing of restricted firearms. Furthermore if any amendments were to be made this would involve a full consultation with all stakeholders. The Department of Justice, Equity and Defence have also confirmed this.

Restricted Firearms and Ammunition Order 2008 defined restricted and prohibited weapons. Automatic firearms and their ammunition were declared to be prohibited firearms under the EU Directive on Control of the Acquisition and Possession of Weapons; military-style semi-automatic firearms and semi-automatic firearms which resemble automatic firearms are considered restricted. Shotguns with a magazine capacity of more than three cartridges, long guns over .308 (7.62mm) calibre, rimfire rifles holding more than 10 rounds, all handguns other than air-operated firearms of 4.5mm (.177) calibre and those using .22 rimfire percussion ammunition and designed for use in connection with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee regulations as well as penetrating, explosive or incendiary ammunition, shotgun slugs and sabots were also declared restricted.

While we object to any restriction on licensed hunting practices or competition shooting, of the approx 160,000 licensed firearms in Ireland, approx 1% are classified as restricted, of this approx 40 are restricted rifles i.e. long guns over .308 (7.62mm) calibre, rimfire rifles holding more than 10 rounds.

We have been assured that no restrictions are being considered for licensed deer stalkers or game hunters in Ireland.

Secretary
Wild Deer Association of Ireland
www.wilddeerireland.com"

Cass

I'll believe the DoJ, and AGS Clive.

Check out posts 179, 184, and specifically 186. All confirmed it.

I've broken it down here in post 188.

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

Should you write to your TD? Well, yes, just not right now. Wait till we see what the story actually is. That could be in a month or two. At that point, yes, a grassroots campaign saying "Hey, we think you should listen to us please" could be a good thing, or it might be completely unnecessary, we just don't know.

Got to agree with that - now we know what's actually been happening.

dc99

OOPS, now I am sorry I jumped the gun and emailed my TD....Guess my nerve went......

I guess the fact that my substitution is pending on a case (someone elses) in the DC about a gun being 'capable' of taking a 10 round mag is pressuring me......also heard someone trying to licence a rifle has been asked the same question.........Is this just a Kerry thing of is everyone in the country dealing with this?

Isn't it amazing how we (I include myself in this) are so gullable? Something plays on our insecuritys and we (inc. me) fall apart.....

Grizzly 45

One thing for sure is ,somones backside should be in a very hot seat when this is over,and I would call on any gun owner to now start demanding some very serious answers from the repersentatives of these bodies who issued the statement as to;Wwho,what,when where,why and how this goddam mess came about in the first place,and whose bright idea it was to start this rumour off or not even make an effort to quell it before it got out of hand. Also, if there is a guilty party in this,what sanctions will they face for;

1] Scaring unnecessarily the shooters of ireland for the last four months appx with this rumour and making us all look like a bunch of fools.Not to mind us making complete edjits of ourselves here with one or two threads.:mad:

2]Relationships between us the AGS/DOJ are strained at the best of times so what was the purpose of aggravating the whole situation,when by rights some effort at bridge building is more in order?

3] Do they expect to get paid OUR monies subscriptions and donations into their organisations for this sort of gross edjitery???..Because if this is the sort of foolery my money is buying me to repersent me.I'd rather spend it down in the pub renting a good amount of beer for a few hours to return it via my kidnyes in the said establishments water closet. It would be just as effective repersentation.:mad:

4]This is not somthing that can be sorted out by a "internal comittee review" and then hushed up and shoved under the carpet by any one organisation.This is much more serious that goes well outside the remit of any one organistion and has contaminated now at least three organisations..

In short there are far too many very serious questions now to be answerd by the people who are supposed to repersent us and they will have to come very clean and answer this in a public forum.
Also there had better be the guilty parties blood on the walls and once found out removal immediate from office.
The day is now at hand that we demand the end of the me fein,primma donnas and fiefdom builders in our organisations and get on with getting proper competant repersentatives into office who put their sport first and their wellbeing second.

Cass

Between the above and this:

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So do you think this is someone's ulterior motive to come out looking like the hero of the hour in this??By either saving us all from a total gun ban or saying it was all a tea cup tempest?? .

You can ask them yourself. Seems an AGM just so happened to be scheduled for March.

However given this is their third strike in 4 years and no explanations were forthcoming for the other two i wouldn't hold my breath.

dc99

There is an email address to send questions to be asked.......(or is that evil?)

Dian Cecht

ace86

dc99 wrote: »

There is an email address to send questions to be asked.......(or is that evil?)

Would it be not a good idea to submit a bunch of questions from guys on here some fellows are very good at saying what they think and know what there on about to all the shooting organisation's concerned if a consultation process was going to happen?

cookimonster

Just in hot off the internet from NARGC :

Dear Supporters,

We are in urgent need of your assistance. There are proposals from An Garda Siochana (The Irish Police) with our Minster for Justice to seriously restrict the possession of firearms for sporting purposes. A full brief on the issue is attached.

We would appreciate your support by emailing our Minister for Justice, Mr. Alan Shatter, T.D. at minister@justice.ie and express your deep concern that law abiding citizens could possibly be penalised in this way in favour of a discredited Government institution which has been repeatedly held by the Courts to have broken the law and ask him to please retain the status quo.

With much appreciation,

Des Crofton, National Director, NARGC

And

Representative of the listed Irish Sports Shooting Interests

bravestar

cookimonster wrote: »

Just in hot off the internet from NARGC :

Dear Supporters,

We are in urgent need of your assistance. There are proposals from An Garda Siochana (The Irish Police) with our Minster for Justice to seriously restrict the possession of firearms for sporting purposes. A full brief on the issue is attached.

We would appreciate your support by emailing our Minister for Justice, Mr. Alan Shatter, T.D. at minister@justice.ie and express your deep concern that law abiding citizens could possibly be penalised in this way in favour of a discredited Government institution which has been repeatedly held by the Courts to have broken the law and ask him to please retain the status quo.

With much appreciation,

Des Crofton, National Director, NARGC

And

Representative of the listed Irish Sports Shooting Interests

Where is the full brief???

Sparks

bravestar wrote: »

Where is the full brief???

There was no attachment on the email, but I presume they mean the document that's been mentioned several times on this thread, which is here.

Tackleberry.

I just got the same Nargc email tis morn also and went and sent a email to Minister Shatter but then I came onto boards to catch up on the goings on..
The WDAI and Doj statements are a breath of fresh air ... But WTF are the Nargc emailing me tis morning for...
What's the correct line now?

hiddenmongoose

As a member of their compensation fund I emailed the NARGC asking for clarification on their source of the 'AGS proposals'considering that the WDAI have gotten a response from the AGS saying they have not put forth any such proposals.I have still not received a reply from the NARGC.How can the Nargc still claim there is such proposals now that they have been denied without issuing some proof or names?

Witcher

Des Crofton posted a reply on the NARGC'S Facebook page to the WDAI's post if anyone is interested.

edd156

If anybody , particularly sparks thinks that the department of Justice and the Gardai will protect your rights as law abiding firearms owner the. You are sadly misguided by the statements you are making here . The only way to deal with the department and the Gardai is in a court ! Period !

They have shown time and time again that they simply can't be trusted . How many more examples do you people need .

Sparks I question your ability to impartially moderate a forum like this . You are not impartial ! You should have the decency to vacate your position .

Sparks

The NARGC seem to be saying on their facebook page that the WDAI are circulating incorrect information to the shooting community and that if the NARGC was wrong, the AGS or DoJ should issue a statement denying what the NARGC is saying.

Which I kind of thought was exactly what the DoJ had done when they told us to go publish openly what they were saying (and our point of contact was John Guinane in case anyone wants to go double-check), but if the NARGC wants a signature instead of trusting the same people they have to work with, I guess that's how they want to do their business.

Mind you, two way street and a double edged sword, that kind of thing...

And while I'll let you read the rest of their statement yourself (we don't have permission to republish it here and I doubt we'd get it if we asked for it), I think it should be noted that the NARGC go on to say:

every shooting person should take careful note of the WDAI’s efforts to undermine a campaign by all the other shooting associations to protect the interests of shooters.

I think it ought to be noted that all the other shooting associations haven't actually been included in this "campaign" for a start, and that both the AGS and DoJ are the ones doing the undermining (unless the NARGC's saying that people are making up statements from the AGS or DoJ which is kindof a big deal, at least for the AGS statements - impersonating a garda is an actual criminal offence, last I checked...).

ace86

Here is the statement that the N.A.R.G.C made
https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Association-of-Regional-Game-Councils-NARGC/190104431023958?ref=stream

Sparks

edd156 wrote: »

If anybody , particularly sparks thinks that the department of Justice and the Gardai will protect your rights as law abiding firearms owner the.

I don't expect them to because I happen to know we don't have any rights with regard to firearms. At all. And never have had.

You are sadly misguided by the statements you are making here . The only way to deal with the department and the Gardai is in a court ! Period !

Some fecking days, you'd swear people didn't learn.

YOU.
CANNOT.
USE.
THE.
COURTS.
TO.
BEAT.
THE.
GOVERNMENT.

You just can't. The courts won't allow you to try and the government writes the law the courts use as the rulebook, so even if a justice decided to let you use his courtroom to try to show up a Minister, you'd fail.
How many examples do you need us to go through of this happening before you figure this out for yourself? Was Dunne not enough? Did you also need McCarron, McVeigh and Hayes? Because you have them. We keep going to court and losing every time it's done to try to beat the government. When it's one guy getting adjudication by a court within the law, we've won more than we've lost (but it's never been a sure thing) - but whenever someone decides they'll put manners on the AGS or Minister with the courts, we all wind up taking it in the shorts. Every. Single. Time.

Sparks I question your ability to impartially moderate a forum like this . You are not impartial ! You should have the decency to vacate your position .

Are you banned?
Did I delete your post?
Have I actually modded anything you've ever written?

Dian Cecht

Sparks you're source in DOJ is the Range Inspector, am I correct?

Not being funny or trying to undermine his position but maybe he is not privy to all the facts?

If these proposals are correct they will affect a lot more than ranges!