Enterprise refurbishment comes closer?

goingnowhere

All the dual modes I've seen, I've stood in the cab of the Stadler Euro Dual, Bombardier Traxx and Siemens Vectron. Even within a UIC gauge body its really really right through the engine room. All Bo Bo, all over the IE axle limits and typically won't be much good over 160kph. These are really targeting last mile freight not passenger ops (Each coach will need ~30kW hotel power)

IE was looking at a RailJet style Viaggio/Venture coaches, would be ideal if we had end to end electrification but given requirements we are looking at something like this which is really really like the UK Class 80x

8 ~24m coaches

1/8 end cars + 600hp underfloor diesel engine +1500V DC pantograph

2/7 600hp underfloor diesel engine

3/6 600hp underfloor diesel engine

4 battery

5 battery replaceable with a 25kV transformer AC-DC link + pantograph

That would give about 2.2MW on Diesel (before you lean on the batteries for a boost), over 3MW on DC and probably 5MW on 25KV.

Verdict is simple, just electrify and don't bother with an insanely complicated bodge of a train

end of the road

the correct verdect, so it won't happen.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547033#Comment_120547033

Hodge Bodge and Ireland go hand in hand unfortunately, look at nearly everything we've built in the last 20 years and you'll see some degree of corner cutting, in many cases serious corner cutting.

Pete_Cavan

A new rather cryptic notice on etenders relating to Enterprise fleet replacement:

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/241025/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

This seems to relate to the actual tender for the new fleet as the estimated value is €480m. Not sure what a Periodic indicative Notice is, a PIN used to be a Prior Information Notice which was to notify potential tenderers in advance of issuing a large tender.

A1ACo

Thanks for the info above! – It seems strange that in the last 20+ years, that there has been no change from the Diesel locomotive CoCo 160kph/ 100mph threshold (e.g. IE’s 201 slightly over that), and UKs Class 67 & Spanish 334's speed above that, but only in BoBo, to 200kph/125mph.  

Even the now seemingly popular, Stadler EuroDuals various versions, and Dual modes, also have max speeds to CoCo/ BoBo configurations that hit..these buffers!

By-the-by, this month's ‘Today’s Railways - Europe’ has two long articles on Irish Rail's 201 Class.

The magazine issue also includes news of a good few (smallish size) orders of EuroDuals e.g. BoBo, Eurolight Dual, bi-mode for Trenitalia – but… 20 tonnes axle load, for 160kph/100mph operation, and using 3000V DC - and Diesel.

(Unfortunately, nothing in the different orders seems to meets all the Enterprise various tender requirements/ operating parameters).

The Enterprise tender 110mph/176kph max speed reequirement, besides the hybrid operation, would seem an unusual choice - in that it looks like it would preclude a lot of rail products in general, that would only meet the usual 100mph/160kph standard.

Would this lock IE into a small trainset fleet, for years, that would not represent a much (speed) improvement on the just over 100mph max speed of the 201 Class?

 – and may – for the entirety of the consist – not have commonality with the rest of IEs fleets (currently, the 201s locomotive are common to IE fleet/network).

Which still brings me back around to the idea, that just:

- upgrading the 201s,.. maybe with two engines (and maybe loosing some of the traction motors, to make them like BoBo, but with trailers… CoCos with unpowered axles)???

…Or a new locomotive CoCo diesel at circa 100mph.

 

- And the rest of the train consist/ carriages to be to be - an electric, electric/diesel version of an existing IE fleet or,..

...something new, and much faster potential, and potential future use across the network new fleets  

(whichever, to be light on batteries, and heavy on diesel... given the longer distances to Belfast to be crossed), but to be later hived off - for use on its own without the locomotive, and up to its full speed potential, when the electric lines are up…

… That approach mid-term, might be preferrable to, in c.2027 buying into potentially complicated, combined sets, 110mph limit only - potentially for years,.. and weighted with 25kv AC equipment ready,.. but maybe only fitted at mid-life, c.2040 to actually operate to 25kv AC, and with a lot of heavy(?) batteries until then.   

A1ACo

I was pleasantly surprised though… when I was looking at the various modern, 3KV DC, and 3kv/1.5kv/ multi-electric mode EMUs, and Locomotives produced in recent years, that the following trains exist - that could be close to meeting the Enterprise tender requirements,

(and besides the UK IEP, Hitachi 80x) may well have also been on some minds:

1.     Talgo/ Bombardier, RENFE Spanish Class 730 (follow-on from Class 130) Iberian (broad)/dual gauge, Dual-voltage (3kv DC & 25kv AC), dual-mode and hybrid (electric and diesel), max axle load c.18t, 183m long, and noting – Passive Tilting - 160mph/250kph in electric, &.. for the S-130 at least, Diesel hybrid mode operation up to 112mph/ 180kph.

2.     Newag, Polish Impuls & Impuls II Models, Bi-mode electric and diesel (3kv DC & diesel), standard gauge, though 3-car only, 100mph/160kph in electric, Diesel hybrid mode 75mph/120kph.  

Also, just in terms of any redesign etc. - of Irish Rail’s existing ICR, Hyundai Rotem diesel, 100mph/160kph Diesel (DMU) (already with battery hybrid fleet trials), for an electric & hybrid etc. version - note that there is also the seemingly similar;

-       Hyundai Rotem, Ukraine HRCS2 Class, Russian (broad) gauge, Dual-voltage (3kv DC & 25kv AC) EMU, to 110mph/ 176kph, from 2011 (just after IE’s ICR production run). 

A1ACo

Any word on the Enterprise replacement tender response?

(I'm aware that there is a similar thread that is more recent and related, but i dont think i saw anything there about any tender response either -

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058341796/enterprise-replacement-and-connolly-station-based-trains-generally

Further to that, have the possible contender mooted here previously - Hitachi IEP UK - Class 800s problems all been sorted, e.g. some cracks in bogies, and poor carpets and seats, or is that mostly old news and/ or online still moaning?!

Any other contenders raising their head e.g. some of the possibilities mentioned above, or other hybrids/ dual-modes floating around Europe or Japan, etc.?

dowlingm

one approach could be to acquire something like the Siemens ALC-42E - diesel at the front, battery/panto car behind, then coaches. After all, Enterprise already operates with an EGV so two non rev cars are already part of the service pattern.

Once Belfast-Dublin is end to end electric, you can move the loco/battery trainsets to other partial electric routes and go straight electric for Enterprise (actual MUs or electric locos either end, there are pros and cons)

The impediment to that of course is if the Enterprise co-ownership of the rolling stock model is followed. Ideally the equipment would be leased, with amendment options in the lease to allow IE take full lease responsibility and/or buyout for all the sets for agreed amounts after say 3/6/9 years in the event that they were superceded by EMUs and operating to Sligo or Galway or whatever

A1ACo

Further to above ALC-42E comment, it would seem that bi-mode, and tri-mode trains fall under two categories - first either multiple units (MU) with under-carriage (&/or roof mounted) alternate power sources or second; multiple units (MU) with special middle carriage power-packs, or locomotives, with special trailers for the alternate power packs.

The first, presumably under-carriage positioned power packs, multiple units (MU) approach would seem to include the Hitachi A-train/ Class 802, & Italian Blues Commuter, CAF Civity bi-mode & tri-mode (Tri-mode for UK’s LNER), etc.

The second approach of special trailers, or middle carriage power-packs, seem to include the above mentioned dual-modes Siemens ALC-42E (big Diesel + battery, or panto’), and Talgo 250/Class 730, and the other variation in Stadler UK 756.

One potential problem with ‘swapping out’ and removing MU diesel engines in the future, especially with multiple, relatively small diesel engines per Multi-mode train sets e.g. under-carriage e.g. 3 & 5 engines in Class 802’s 5-car & 9-car sets - is what do you do with so many engines afterwards?

Do you just scrap them? Or fit them to another train…(though it may be simpler just to move on the entire MU trains to another line in more need of a hybrid option).

Then again, maybe Irish Rail might think that it will take so long to electrify the remainder Belfast line, to 25kV, especially on the NIR side, that any proposed MU diesel engines might by then be relatively old, so scrapping them may not be such a loss?

A1ACo

I have only just seen this morning on another board, more discussion about possible future new Enterprise trains, and mention of a possible relaunched tender?

Cross-border review of rail network officially launched - Page 37 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'