Enterprise refurbishment comes closer?

goingnowhere

All the dual modes I've seen, I've stood in the cab of the Stadler Euro Dual, Bombardier Traxx and Siemens Vectron. Even within a UIC gauge body its really really right through the engine room. All Bo Bo, all over the IE axle limits and typically won't be much good over 160kph. These are really targeting last mile freight not passenger ops (Each coach will need ~30kW hotel power)

IE was looking at a RailJet style Viaggio/Venture coaches, would be ideal if we had end to end electrification but given requirements we are looking at something like this which is really really like the UK Class 80x

8 ~24m coaches

1/8 end cars + 600hp underfloor diesel engine +1500V DC pantograph

2/7 600hp underfloor diesel engine

3/6 600hp underfloor diesel engine

4 battery

5 battery replaceable with a 25kV transformer AC-DC link + pantograph

That would give about 2.2MW on Diesel (before you lean on the batteries for a boost), over 3MW on DC and probably 5MW on 25KV.

Verdict is simple, just electrify and don't bother with an insanely complicated bodge of a train

end of the road

the correct verdect, so it won't happen.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547033#Comment_120547033

Hodge Bodge and Ireland go hand in hand unfortunately, look at nearly everything we've built in the last 20 years and you'll see some degree of corner cutting, in many cases serious corner cutting.

Pete_Cavan

A new rather cryptic notice on etenders relating to Enterprise fleet replacement:

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/241025/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

This seems to relate to the actual tender for the new fleet as the estimated value is €480m. Not sure what a Periodic indicative Notice is, a PIN used to be a Prior Information Notice which was to notify potential tenderers in advance of issuing a large tender.

A1ACo

Thanks for the info above! – It seems strange that in the last 20+ years, that there has been no change from the Diesel locomotive CoCo 160kph/ 100mph threshold (e.g. IE’s 201 slightly over that), and UKs Class 67 & Spanish 334's speed above that, but only in BoBo, to 200kph/125mph.  

Even the now seemingly popular, Stadler EuroDuals various versions, and Dual modes, also have max speeds to CoCo/ BoBo configurations that hit..these buffers!

By-the-by, this month's ‘Today’s Railways - Europe’ has two long articles on Irish Rail's 201 Class.

The magazine issue also includes news of a good few (smallish size) orders of EuroDuals e.g. BoBo, Eurolight Dual, bi-mode for Trenitalia – but… 20 tonnes axle load, for 160kph/100mph operation, and using 3000V DC - and Diesel.

(Unfortunately, nothing in the different orders seems to meets all the Enterprise various tender requirements/ operating parameters).

The Enterprise tender 110mph/176kph max speed reequirement, besides the hybrid operation, would seem an unusual choice - in that it looks like it would preclude a lot of rail products in general, that would only meet the usual 100mph/160kph standard.

Would this lock IE into a small trainset fleet, for years, that would not represent a much (speed) improvement on the just over 100mph max speed of the 201 Class?

 – and may – for the entirety of the consist – not have commonality with the rest of IEs fleets (currently, the 201s locomotive are common to IE fleet/network).

Which still brings me back around to the idea, that just:

- upgrading the 201s,.. maybe with two engines (and maybe loosing some of the traction motors, to make them like BoBo, but with trailers… CoCos with unpowered axles)???

…Or a new locomotive CoCo diesel at circa 100mph.

 

- And the rest of the train consist/ carriages to be to be - an electric, electric/diesel version of an existing IE fleet or,..

...something new, and much faster potential, and potential future use across the network new fleets  

(whichever, to be light on batteries, and heavy on diesel... given the longer distances to Belfast to be crossed), but to be later hived off - for use on its own without the locomotive, and up to its full speed potential, when the electric lines are up…

… That approach mid-term, might be preferrable to, in c.2027 buying into potentially complicated, combined sets, 110mph limit only - potentially for years,.. and weighted with 25kv AC equipment ready,.. but maybe only fitted at mid-life, c.2040 to actually operate to 25kv AC, and with a lot of heavy(?) batteries until then.   

A1ACo

I was pleasantly surprised though… when I was looking at the various modern, 3KV DC, and 3kv/1.5kv/ multi-electric mode EMUs, and Locomotives produced in recent years, that the following trains exist - that could be close to meeting the Enterprise tender requirements,

(and besides the UK IEP, Hitachi 80x) may well have also been on some minds:

1.     Talgo/ Bombardier, RENFE Spanish Class 730 (follow-on from Class 130) Iberian (broad)/dual gauge, Dual-voltage (3kv DC & 25kv AC), dual-mode and hybrid (electric and diesel), max axle load c.18t, 183m long, and noting – Passive Tilting - 160mph/250kph in electric, &.. for the S-130 at least, Diesel hybrid mode operation up to 112mph/ 180kph.

2.     Newag, Polish Impuls & Impuls II Models, Bi-mode electric and diesel (3kv DC & diesel), standard gauge, though 3-car only, 100mph/160kph in electric, Diesel hybrid mode 75mph/120kph.  

Also, just in terms of any redesign etc. - of Irish Rail’s existing ICR, Hyundai Rotem diesel, 100mph/160kph Diesel (DMU) (already with battery hybrid fleet trials), for an electric & hybrid etc. version - note that there is also the seemingly similar;

-       Hyundai Rotem, Ukraine HRCS2 Class, Russian (broad) gauge, Dual-voltage (3kv DC & 25kv AC) EMU, to 110mph/ 176kph, from 2011 (just after IE’s ICR production run). 

A1ACo

Any word on the Enterprise replacement tender response?

(I'm aware that there is a similar thread that is more recent and related, but i dont think i saw anything there about any tender response either -

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058341796/enterprise-replacement-and-connolly-station-based-trains-generally

Further to that, have the possible contender mooted here previously - Hitachi IEP UK - Class 800s problems all been sorted, e.g. some cracks in bogies, and poor carpets and seats, or is that mostly old news and/ or online still moaning?!

Any other contenders raising their head e.g. some of the possibilities mentioned above, or other hybrids/ dual-modes floating around Europe or Japan, etc.?

dowlingm

one approach could be to acquire something like the Siemens ALC-42E - diesel at the front, battery/panto car behind, then coaches. After all, Enterprise already operates with an EGV so two non rev cars are already part of the service pattern.

Once Belfast-Dublin is end to end electric, you can move the loco/battery trainsets to other partial electric routes and go straight electric for Enterprise (actual MUs or electric locos either end, there are pros and cons)

The impediment to that of course is if the Enterprise co-ownership of the rolling stock model is followed. Ideally the equipment would be leased, with amendment options in the lease to allow IE take full lease responsibility and/or buyout for all the sets for agreed amounts after say 3/6/9 years in the event that they were superceded by EMUs and operating to Sligo or Galway or whatever

A1ACo

Further to above ALC-42E comment, it would seem that bi-mode, and tri-mode trains fall under two categories - first either multiple units (MU) with under-carriage (&/or roof mounted) alternate power sources or second; multiple units (MU) with special middle carriage power-packs, or locomotives, with special trailers for the alternate power packs.

The first, presumably under-carriage positioned power packs, multiple units (MU) approach would seem to include the Hitachi A-train/ Class 802, & Italian Blues Commuter, CAF Civity bi-mode & tri-mode (Tri-mode for UK’s LNER), etc.

The second approach of special trailers, or middle carriage power-packs, seem to include the above mentioned dual-modes Siemens ALC-42E (big Diesel + battery, or panto’), and Talgo 250/Class 730, and the other variation in Stadler UK 756.

One potential problem with ‘swapping out’ and removing MU diesel engines in the future, especially with multiple, relatively small diesel engines per Multi-mode train sets e.g. under-carriage e.g. 3 & 5 engines in Class 802’s 5-car & 9-car sets - is what do you do with so many engines afterwards?

Do you just scrap them? Or fit them to another train…(though it may be simpler just to move on the entire MU trains to another line in more need of a hybrid option).

Then again, maybe Irish Rail might think that it will take so long to electrify the remainder Belfast line, to 25kV, especially on the NIR side, that any proposed MU diesel engines might by then be relatively old, so scrapping them may not be such a loss?

A1ACo

I have only just seen this morning on another board, more discussion about possible future new Enterprise trains, and mention of a possible relaunched tender?

Cross-border review of rail network officially launched - Page 37 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

A1ACo

For any alternate medium term solution for Irish Rail - of a refurbed 201, or new loco’-based option - for Enterprise improvements (and Cork-Dublin?) – below list might be helpful for comparisons:

UK Class 67/ RENFE 333.1/334/Stadler 3000/4000/Eurolight/EuroDual UK 68,

&

UK Class 88 (Dual-mode 25kV AC & 940HP Diesel (similar to IR previous initial 121/141 Class power in Diesel mode))

&

UK Class 93 (Tri-mode (25kV AC,& 540HP battery & 1,200HP Diesel (similar to IR previous 181 Class & later 121/141 Class power in Diesel mode)) BoBo, and -German/Swiss Class 159/ELP, CoCo)

&

Stadler SALi (Spain 257 & Bolivia, CoCo)

– all above related to each other in lineage at least–

It should be possible I would have thought, for a new for IR loco’ of 180kph/112mph (or is it 110mph/176kph!), but ALSO to IRs 18.6t Axle Limit (probably needing a CoCo, or even A1A A1A arrangement)...

- and with whatever with trainset arrangement ..and maybe 1.5kV DC thrown in somewhere! –

Would the Euro9000 or SALi combination do it, but still the within IR’s axle weight, and required speed?...

Regards weight & arrangement - CoCos for electric locomotives are nothing new - there have been some 1.5kV DC locos’ in the past in Europe & Japan of CoCo and ‘Bo-Bo-Bo’ design e.g. French CC 7100, CC 6500 & Japan EF66/81/200s/500s).

A1ACo

For Dual-Modes in USA Comparison:

1. Siemens Dual-mode ALC-42E (big Diesel + battery car (instead of 3rd rail),

& alternate -

big Diesel + a panto’ car (& transformer to supply electricity to the locomotive, and to additional motors in its own ‘supplemental’ powered truck – presumably for US 12kV AC and 25kV AC) (to replace GE’s P32AC-DM)

In both above cases the special trailer ‘car’ is a normal carriage (other than, the end quarter for electric motive power, with the other three-quarter end for passengers). The battery pack version is for New York city tunnels & station, to assist in acceleration, and ‘charges in motion’.

2) EMD’s Dual-mode DM30AC (1 x 3,000HP Diesel engine, + 3rd rail 750V DC).

3) Bombardier/ Alstom Dual-mode ALP-45DP (2 x 2,100HP Diesel engines either side of + 25kV (or 12kV) transformer in the middle of the loco’ (each of 2 x Diesels, a bit less in power than 1 x IRs previous 071 Class), see also TRAXX DM/DM Light).

4) GE’s Dual-mode P32AC-DM (II).

All four above USA loco’ types notably heavier than Irish Rail’s 201 Class, & all Bo-Bo.

A1ACo

Could the following be a better interim fix?... an IR 201 Class replacing its 1x 3,200HP diesel with:- 2 x 1,200HP Diesels (2,400HP combined, like old 071 total HP), PLUS with 1.5kV equipment added, PLUS 2 x c.483HP (c.966HP combined), or 3 x 483HP (1,449HP combined), Diesel-Battery hybrids in… 2, or 3 bogies replacing existing bogies in the Control cars and/or Generator vans (same trial bogies in 22000 Class DMUs).

(the 2, or 3 x powered bogies combined HP would be like IR's initial 121/141 Class, or a bit more than IR 181 Class & later 121/141, in HP totals).

Total Diesel HP, between re-engined 201 & above powered carriage bogies would be; 3,366Hp or 3,839HP, & the 1.5kV HP would be?

This might keep weight, cost and speed in acceptable limits, but combinations technically possible?

The 201 body shell could also possibly be replaced for lighter, and bogies altered for more flexible wheel alignment (reduce CoCo wheel scraping on curves).

Could similar could be later interim used in Cork-Dublin, and other 201s, and even 071s freight loco's?.

A1ACo

Interesting that in both Germany and Denmark (Germany with extensive inter-city MU experience), that it has been opted for more recently to buy Talgo (tilting) loco & carriage sets instead, for long-distance services, with in Germany the Siemens Vectron loco & Viaggio carriages sets seemingly lost out to Talgo in a circa 2019 tender.

See Talgo’s list of countries with its 230 class below. Perhaps Dublin-Belfast’s route is not long enough to justify similar approach?

Galería - ICE L - corporate - talgo.com

A1ACo

I’m not sure anyway that a Hitachi 80x type is a definite shoe-in for Enterprise…

We shouldn’t be too surprised maybe, if Alstom comes in with some variation of their already upcoming Irish Rails’ X-Trapolis (now Adessia?) Battery/ electric, but with Diesel thrown in - in some Coradia Continental/ Regiolis (& earlier AGC Bombardier) iteration.

As above, CAF could come in with their UK Tri-mode for LNER,.. (similar maybe to the EMU’s with ‘battery- technology’ for Spain’s RENFE also announced last year?), or could come in with Alstom for a joint tender?

For example, there seems to be some inter-play and similarities between Alstom’s X’trapolis Modular, and separate X’Trapolis (Tsíimin K'áak) Mayan Train route project (includes for 700km electrification, 44% of route) ‘Tren Maya Hybrid’ train (diesel with electric 25kV, or actually separate trains, can’t find the answer) - and CAF’s Civia.

These connections it seems, in competition tenders, and in both internal, and external designs, and potentially previously in manufacturing e.g. Civia for RENFE, and the Civia closely leading to the Civity – that is the Tri-mode for LNER.

It looks like CAF and Alstom may also have had some previous manufacturing co-operation with the dual-voltage RENFE Class 120/121 in the past, and I’m sure there are other examples of manufacturing tie-ins.

A1ACo

Otherwise, I’m not sure you could discount other previous suppliers (besides CAF and Alstom) of other Irish Rail fleets trying to get back in - possibly even in co-operation with eachother, or with say Hitachi, or CAF or Alstom.

There could be many opportunities for a Frankenstein, Tri-mode train for Irish Rail’s/ NIR’s future Enterprise service!

I hope though, that politics does not come into it re: manufacturers base. IR in the past has seemed pretty good at getting what is best for IR, whatever the manufacturer source e.g. it wasn’t restricted to going with European domestic companies like other national rail companies might have had to. IR has been free (rightly) to buy Canadian/ American, Japanese, Korean in the past – well before most other European countries were.

elevendroids

I wouldn't even mind getting Polish EMUs - like Newag 36WEh (electric/diesel hybrid, 160km/h on electric, 120km/h on diesel, each EMU of max 6 carriages, max three EMUs in a set, local or long-distance variants):

As different overhead voltage (3kV DC) shouldn't be an issue (NEWAG does multi-system locos already), European vs Irish loading gauge would probably be the biggest obstacle here…

(And yes, I'm aware of their last year's DRM-in-trains drama 😁)

There are actually multiple interesting (and flexible) European designs around (e.g. from Stadler).

TranslatorPS

In before the "but the 36EWh is a regional build" argument surfaces, I should note that Newag signed a contract for 35 HMUs for PKP Intercity, which are going to be built to intercity spec – 5 seating cars plus a diesel powerpack car (compare to Stadler's solutions) to carry 178 pax (154 in second and 20 in first class, plus four seats for disabled pax and eight bicycle spaces), one pair of double-leafed dours per car per side. All in all, if that's a solution that NIR or IÉ would want to go with, there's now more than just Stadler or CAF to provide.

elevendroids

I also don't really understand the whole HEP problem and the need to use generator cars - that seems like a problem solved long time ago in continental Europe - mostly for interoperability reasons.

I'm also not sure what went wrong with Class 201 as passenger diesels in Europe don't seem to have issues supplying HEP to the carriages even during a proper -20C winter or during a +30C summer… The power requirements are basically the same as IE ones - 30-40kW per car.

All carriages compliant with RIC regulations have to support four types of heating power supply: 1kV 16 2/3Hz AC, 1.5kV 50Hz AC, 1.5kV DC and 3kV DC. This allows them to be supplied directly from the catenary (via the loco) - either directly (DC) or via a traction transformer tap (AC). Diesel passenger locs (since at least 1960s) have a separate 400 - 500kW generator (AC or DC, depending on the country, but providing one of the standard voltages anyway) just for that purpose. That powers the heating directly (resistive heaters switched in series or in parallel - automatically) and, nowadays, it also powers all of the "hotel" needs (aircon, seating sockets, displays etc.) via inverters in each carriage. That simplifies the locomotive-side of things, provides interoperability (e.g. German carriages can operate in Poland, France, Italy etc.), higher voltages need lighter and thinner cables (in contrast to 3 phase 230V).

If still considering loco-hauled trains, IÉ should consider using at least part of the RIC standard (e.g. 1.5kV 50Hz AC and 1.5kV DC) for HEP - that would allow the carriages to be directly powered from the catenary when running in DART areas (DC) or on an electrified main-line (AC stepped down by traction transformer in the loco) or supplied by a 1.5kV DC generator on a diesel locomotive. This should be also cheaper to build as all of the equipment required already exists.

Beta Ray Bill

The HEP issue is a kick on from the unusually low max Axle Load on the network

I believe the max load is around 18T per axle (which is quite low). I think the 201 comes in at 17.8 per axle. It uses and alternator off the main engine to generate power for the cars. This system "works", but not well enough.

Germany solved this by adding a standalone 400 kW generator for HEP to the loco. Even 4 Axle locos like the older 218 class had these generators and had a per axle load of around 20T.

If you added this (add all its supporting kit) to the 201 class, it would be over the Max Axle load. You could install a standalone HEP motor but that would probably mean a smaller main engine (prime mover), which means sacrificing power.

There is only so much equipment that you can fit onboard a loco, this is one of the reasons I think the Battery, OHLE, Diesel Hybrid idea will not work.

8 Axle Locos have been done (Class 40, UPDDA40x) but they are extremely niche

goingnowhere

Ireland has always used a dual 3 phase 380V for air conditioned trains, its vastly superior as it eliminates the need for a motor alternator or static converter on each coach. The UK HST uses the same system. We do not use US style HEP which is a 480V system

With modern power electronics you can easily generate 3 phase 380v, whereas the 201 class needs to run the engine at 900rpm to deliver a constant 50Hz as its a low tech alternator solution. You could simply rectify the output of the HEP alternator into a DC-AC inverter and this would decouple the RPM from the issue entirely, but that tech wasn't mature enough in 1994

elevendroids

The HEP issue is a kick on from the unusually low max Axle Load on the network

I believe the max load is around 18T per axle (which is quite low). I think the 201 comes in at 17.8 per axle. It uses and alternator off the main engine to generate power for the cars. This system "works", but not well enough.

Is the low max axle load limit a historical thing due to much lighter freight traffic (when compared to European railways)? Or lower cost? (Or both?)

Germany solved this by adding a standalone 400 kW generator for HEP to the loco. Even 4 Axle locos like the older 218 class had these generators and had a per axle load of around 20T.

20T is very common axle load for most European countries - e.g. according to the official list from PLK (Polish railway infrastructure manager) most main lines have an axle load limit of 221kN (~22.5t), some local and branch lines get as low as 177kN (~18t).

(I can't post links yet - google for "pkp plk network statement" for the documents in English with all the data)

Ireland has always used a dual 3 phase 380V for air conditioned trains, its vastly superior as it eliminates the need for a motor alternator or static converter on each coach. The UK HST uses the same system. We do not use US style HEP which is a 480V system

It's definitely cheaper (on the other hand you might end up having to tow an extra diesel generator 🙃 ).

That's also possible due to Ireland (and UK, US) being effectively isolated systems, without international passenger trains (no need to be compatible with foreign rolling stock).

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503413#Comment_122503413

I'm struggling to think of any modern diesel locos (not dmu) that uses HEP for AC coaches.

I just don't think it's a thing anymore. It's all overhead lines now. Maybe in the US but their locos are massive in comparison to EU locos.

Do the class 43 trains run with a loco each end?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503722#Comment_122503722

Open to correction on this but I believe it's the type of Rail we have sitting on the sleeper as opposed to bridges and track bed etc.

This potentially could be an issue when it comes to battery hybrid trains. Probably cheaper to just electrify the entire/most of the line instead having a very bespoke hybrid design. Batteries are heavy.

And for freight just double head if it's a heavy train.

elevendroids

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122504715#Comment_122504715

Most operators moved to DMUs to run on the non-electrified lines (where the electrification is not deemed economical) which are lighter and cheaper compared to loco-hauled trains, or they use the already existing older diesel locos.

Polish PKP Intercity bought in 2015 a couple (five I think?) of new SU160 class locomotives (diesel version of Pesa Gama, 111Db, 160km/h, 2400kW, HEP 3kV DC) - mostly due to dwindling stock of old diesel passenger classes (SU45/SU46) that are needed to haul the few Intercity trains on non-electrified lines (HEP is required for heating and aircon). They are of rather terrible reliability so far which forced Intercity into e.g. continued use of loaned Czech Class 753 (from 1970s, 100km/h) for some trains.

In 2022 they've ordered another 11 Pesa Gama locos, this time in hybrid diesel/electric (3kV DC OHLE) variant (111DE, 2800kW on DC and 160km/h max, 1560kW on diesel and 120km/h max., HEP power is provided in both modes) - these are currently being tested. Time will tell whether they're going to be more reliable than their predecessors 🙃

But even those are probably going to be replaced with some kind of hybrid BEMUs or DEMUs at some point…

Diesel locos are still going strong in freight trains (some private operators prefer them as they can do the last mile shunting, run on some industrial, non-electrified branch lines) - but there's more and more dual-mode freight locos with built in small "last mile" diesels (~500kW) for shunting duties (Alstom Traxx, Siemens Vectron, Pesa and Newag also do these).

elevendroids

Getting back to Irish railways 😉

I think that going for new loco-hauled passenger trains doesn't really make sense anymore - unless IÉ would have a large stock of modern(-ish) passenger carriages to e.g. upgrade and reuse.

But otherwise, a modern *MU is going to be much better for intercity services like Enterprise (ordered in a proper medium/long-distance config of course).

And I personally would love to see something like Stadler Kiss e.g. on the Cork line 😉 (few years back I traveled on board the one operated by Westbahn between Vienna and Salzburg - very nice and comfy @200km/h).

A1ACo

Its always nice to get some more international comparisons, as a lot of the international railway equipment we might be be familiar with tend to be UK based first, or some of the larger and closer country more usual suspects like France, Germany or even the US.

As for the Enterprise replacement trains tender it does, as various posters above have opined, appear difficult to really tick all the boxes for '…the Battery, OHLE, Diesel Hybrid idea….' and at a 'higher speed' category, AND high-end/ Cross-border/Flag-ship quality, all in one vehicle, whether in a single locomotive, or equipment placed under/over carriages in MU train sets.

Compartmentalising the 3 modes, in 1 or 2 modes per vehicle, seems a better approach, either in within portions of cars, or special cars in MU train sets - or alternatively between locomotives and trailers, or maybe a combination of the two approaches, that can be later split off and re-used easily elsewhere, and better than lots of under-floor diesel engines, with 3 modes equipment all under/over passenger cars.

However, if a fleet of multi-diesel engines under passenger cars MU trains are procured for Enterprise, hopefully these swappable/ 'disposable' diesel engines are of the diesel-battery hybrid types to be employed on the 22000 Class existing trials, so that by the time they are taken off the Enterprise trains, they can be put on whatever Irish Rail DMUs fleets are left to be upgraded (if not already upgraded, or replaced in 2040ish!).

A1ACo

Does this 'Refresh'(?) refurb tender (Refresh of Enterprise Train Fleet | BWL) have any relation to the replacement new train tender (Enterprise replacement and Connolly station based trains generally. - Page 2 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin') in terms of any delays?…or can we surmise that this refresh would have happened anyway?

RE the above tender which appears to close this Jan. 2025: '…This work package will focus on the refurbishment of 4No. generator vans and 28No. coaches (4 of which are Catering Cars).'

A few more details here Refresh of Enterp... | Translink | £115,000 | Stage N/A | Date N/A - apologies if I missed chat about this elsewhere?