Enterprise refurbishment comes closer?

Captain Chaos

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

All Mark 4's in service are 7 piece units including the DVT, so 6 piece passenger units (1 Citygold, 1 Dinning Car and 4 Standard). .

Have through the wanders photo site and you will see MK4s with 7 and 8 piece sets. They are not all 7s.

There is an 8 piece in the link.
http://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/2014Photos/February-2014/i-rQTV9K5

http://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/2014Photos/February-2014/i-rgJ75z4

http://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/2014Photos/February-2014/i-BswvN8q

Jamie2k9

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Have through the wanders photo site and you will see MK4s with 7 and 8 piece sets. They are not all 7s.

There is an 8 piece in the link.
http://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/2014Photos/February-2014/i-rQTV9K5

http://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/2014Photos/February-2014/i-rgJ75z4

http://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/2014Photos/February-2014/i-BswvN8q

Thanks for pointing it out, always thought they were 7 piece units, there was a set or two formed as 7 around a while ago.

Going by weight savings will never compare to a 22 which is why they probably haven't reduced the sizes.

purplepanda

So to save money on running the Cork services other long distance routes have to give up their 22K DMU's & passengers have to put up with uncomfortable commuter railcars? :rolleyes:

Maybe IE should try to seriously promote & advertise the Cork service thus increasing passenger numbers? Radical idea I know!

There must be options available for making full use of these carriages so that 22K's are not replacing them from other routes, they are only a few years old & shouldn't be underused. :mad:

GTE

purplepanda wrote: »

So to save money on running the Cork services other long distance routes have to give up their 22K DMU's & passengers have to put up with uncomfortable commuter railcars? :rolleyes:

Maybe IE should try to seriously promote & advertise the Cork service thus increasing passenger numbers? Radical idea I know!

There must be options available for making full use of these carriages so that 22K's are not replacing them from other routes, they are only a few years old & shouldn't be underused. :mad:

Pad your radical idea out. What details would you include? What are the selling points for paying double to take the train from Cork to Dublin return compared to the bus or triple the price of one was travelling tomorrow?

About the underused point, why should they be used? What options would you like to see looked at before you concede that in order to remain viable, they have to cut costs where possible to compete. Keeping the Mark 4s in full service as per the aspirations of IE when times were better could only mean a raise in fares?

If the Mark 4s have to be scaled back to save money and if there are not enough 22k to fill the gap, then why should priority not be given to one route over an other? Would you prefer to see a commuter then move to the Cork-Dublin line? That sounds like passing the buck.

I am not an Irish Rail biased person, I just can not understand the drivel which can be read here about complaining about this and that just because it doesn't conform to the ideal scenario. It is a long time since any company or person could properly live out or aspire to their ideal scenario given the recession we have had to fight for the past number of years.

I very much dislike IE for letting the 071 class to get to a stage where they needed a substantial overhaul. The fact they are still running as reasonably well as they are raises the question of how good they and similar classes would have been given good maintenance. A lot of 201s seem to be sitting derelict and a short sightedness of IE can only be to blame for that incl. the Mark 3 scrappage.

But, lets say the 071, 201s were all kept in tip top shape with the refurbishment of the mark 3 that people here incl. me would have liked to see, the recession would still have hit and with no railcar orders to replace what has been replaced, IE would be in an even worse situation having no option but to run the more expensive loco option.

But then I am sure we would be bitching and moaning about why IE bothered keeping old stock in such good condition when they could have ordered railcars to stay modern and keep costs low.

Heaven above, I would love to see how people in this forum would handle their balance sheet if given the responsibility. Forget about the past and mistakes which were made and deal with now. What would you do now.

Jamie2k9

purplepanda wrote: »

So to save money on running the Cork services other long distance routes have to give up their 22K DMU's & passengers have to put up with uncomfortable commuter railcars? :rolleyes:

Maybe IE should try to seriously promote & advertise the Cork service thus increasing passenger numbers? Radical idea I know!

There must be options available for making full use of these carriages so that 22K's are not replacing them from other routes, they are only a few years old & shouldn't be underused. :mad:

Before 22's started increasing the number of Cork services being worked Sligo and Rosslare still had 29000. Fridays see less 22' on Cork services to boosts capacity on other routes.

I very much dislike IE for letting the 071 class to get to a stage where they needed a substantial overhaul. The fact they are still running as reasonably well as they are raises the question of how good they and similar classes would have been given good maintenance. A lot of 201s seem to be sitting derelict and a short sightedness of IE can only be to blame for that incl. the Mark 3 scrappage.

I don't agree with the 071 comments, all railway operators will always do a major overhaul at certain periods during the life cycle of a fleet. Most of the 071's that have being done recently could of continued to operate just fine without it but reliability would drop.

Captain Chaos

It was mainly the body work on the 071s that had to be replaced, rusting was getting to be a real problem and the drivers were complaining the cabs were cold and drafty in winter with gaps around the windows. Only to be expected after 40 years out in the Irish elements and they were a small and highly used fleet with very high work loads for their first 20 years in service after the bogey cracks issue was sorted out.

GTE

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I don't agree with the 071 comments, all railway operators will always do a major overhaul at certain periods during the life cycle of a fleet. Most of the 071's that have being done recently could of continued to operate just fine without it but reliability would drop.

Its more the state equipment was allowed get into rather than the principal of overhauling so I accept that. Bus Eireann have their examples of this from depo to depo too. Two models from different depos would be drastically different.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Before 22's started increasing the number of Cork services being worked Sligo and Rosslare still had 29000.

which they shouldn't have and still shouldn't be as their horid uncomfortable drafty shaky rattely commuter trains designed for short distances not long distances yet irish rail insist on forcing rosslare and sligo to still have to put up with them instead of other services such as local services out of hueston where they should be operating, no doubt these 2 lines will suffer more 29 k operation if more 22 ks go to the cork service because moving 22s off local services won't happen, passengers on rosslare and sligo have been shown nothing but contempt by CIE for years, time for it to end and treat us like every other long distance route, were entitled to be treated properly, not shown the contempt that we are

dowlingm

The Mark 4s are qualified to Limerick I believe, but having them do peak services might be tricky to hold the schedule given the normal stopping pattern ex Limerick. Back to Cork they should go on services with as few stops as practicable. Yes they are more costly than 22s but the answer is to fill the damn things by keeping downward pressure on trip times.

As I have said previously, given a position as IE Czar I'd be looking to do a deal with NIR for a swap of FC 22s for Enterprise sets in order to make 201 (and EGV) passenger ops Heuston-side, remove the need for parts to be held in Belfast and possibly Connolly too.

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

The Mark 4s are qualified to Limerick I believe, but having them do peak services might be tricky to hold the schedule given the normal stopping pattern ex Limerick. Back to Cork they should go on services with as few stops as practicable. Yes they are more costly than 22s but the answer is to fill the damn things by keeping downward pressure on trip times.

certainly they should go back on cork services, make cork services as little stopping as possible maybe only mallow, with direct limerick services taking up the slack for the other stops

dowlingm wrote: »

As I have said previously, given a position as IE Czar I'd be looking to do a deal with NIR for a swap of FC 22s for Enterprise sets in order to make 201 (and EGV) passenger ops Heuston-side, remove the need for parts to be held in Belfast and possibly Connolly too.

i don't know, i could see the merits in such an option if they were to operate a non stopping train each way morning and evening on the dublin waterford and dublin galway routes, or if we had more then enough units with all long distance services completely covered by ICRS, this is something that could seriously be looked at, but as that isn't going to happen i think keeping them on the belfast route with less stops as possible is a better option as in my opinion keeping the 2 major inter city services as brands with their own type of train is something i believe is a good thing, but as said i do see the merits in your suggestion

dowlingm

The notion of sending a 7-8 car set out of the regions at peak is tempting but then you're outbasing 201s which could get tricky if there were glitches.

Jamie2k9

The Mark 4s are qualified to Limerick I believe, but having them do peak services might be tricky to hold the schedule given the normal stopping pattern ex Limerick. Back to Cork they should go on services with as few stops as practicable. Yes they are more costly than 22s but the answer is to fill the damn things by keeping downward pressure on trip times.

As I have said previously, given a position as IE Czar I'd be looking to do a deal with NIR for a swap of FC 22s for Enterprise sets in order to make 201 (and EGV) passenger ops Heuston-side, remove the need for parts to be held in Belfast and possibly Connolly too.

Not sure what the savings would be.

The coaches are all serviced in Belfast, nothing in Connolly.
The locomotives are all services in Heuston, with a spare at either end of route. Can't see many if any parts being stored as fitters are required and anything bigger than a minor fault will likely require a visit to Heuston anyway.

certainly they should go back on cork services, make cork services as little stopping as possible maybe only mallow, with direct limerick services taking up the slack for the other stops

Without Cork and Limerick combined there would be no hourly service to Cork, it would be split 2 hourly each with hourly peak.

i don't know, i could see the merits in such an option if they were to operate a non stopping train each way morning and evening on the dublin waterford and dublin galway routes, or if we had more then enough units with all long distance services completely covered by ICRS, this is something that could seriously be looked at, but as that isn't going to happen i think keeping them on the belfast route with less stops as possible is a better option as in my opinion keeping the 2 major inter city services as brands with their own type of train is something i believe is a good thing, but as said i do see the merits in your suggestion

It would be just increasing wear and tear across the network and as a passenger if I was expected to use the Entreprise or Mark 4's over the 22's I simply wouldn't, the 22's make other rolling stock dated and useless. The only difference is the FC offering.

Yes they are more costly than 22s but the answer is to fill the damn things by keeping downward pressure on trip times.

Cork could easily be doable in 2h20m if pushed a little, even 2h15, the real problem on the route.

Problems on the route.
Portarlington - 60mph, when they redid the station better planning should of being done and not to have the curve. A full replacement of the points would probably help increase regardless of the bends.

Portlaoise - 25 or 30mph, complete replacement of points needed, can't see why it's so speed restricted. It should be 60-90 at least.

Limerick J - lack of second platform causes problems, Cork departures need to move to xx.15 from xx.20 to stop the recurring problems of trains sitting either side of the station.

Charville - Recent replacement of points, probably time until speed is increased further.

Mallow-Cork - possibly some scope to increase speed in parts to 90 from 80.

Whatever the problem is with points on IE's network, anywhere South of Cherryville is heavily speed restricted. It shouldn't be the case and 90 mph should be possible at most locations as is through Cherryville, Kildare, Newbridge and Nass.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Without Cork and Limerick combined there would be no hourly service to Cork, it would be split 2 hourly each with hourly peak.

no, if the cork hourly service was more or less non stopping traveling as fast as it could with a huge advertising campaign with good fairs then people will come and fill the trains, thats what IE should be doing, limerick would be 2 hourly and so would the stops beyond kildare/portaloise which i'd agree would upset some but if it helped the service between irelands 2 major cities then it could be worth it, jesus if they had bought enough ICRS they could have even made that hourly as well, but considering we haven't enough to even do rosslare and sligo theirs no hope, would do wonders for the railway though.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It would be just increasing wear and tear across the network

well then buying better track that doesn't wear and tear as quick should solve that problem, its about customers and services at the end of the day, people need to be attracted to the railway so improving and adding more services is essential

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

as a passenger if I was expected to use the Entreprise or Mark 4's over the 22's I simply wouldn't

well if you got a nonstopping train to waterford on the most crowded train each way morning and evening you would use it whatever the stock, why wouldn't you if the time suitid you?

Hungerford

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It would be just increasing wear and tear across the network and as a passenger if I was expected to use the Entreprise or Mark 4's over the 22's I simply wouldn't, the 22's make other rolling stock dated and useless. The only difference is the FC offering.

I think that the Belfast route passengers would also rather keep the Enterprise - for its faults, it is still the most comfortable passenger experience by rail in this country. It will be even better if they can update it sympathetically and address its reliability issues.

As for stock, I think that NIR's C4Ks are possibly the finest of the current batch of DMUs. They are high capacity units suited for a mix of intercity and commuter duties. Their acceleration is also very impressive. The 22ks have not aged well due to IÉ's typically suspect maintenance regime.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not sure what the savings would be.

The coaches are all serviced in Belfast, nothing in Connolly.
The locomotives are all services in Heuston, with a spare at either end of route. Can't see many if any parts being stored as fitters are required and anything bigger than a minor fault will likely require a visit to Heuston anyway.



Without Cork and Limerick combined there would be no hourly service to Cork, it would be split 2 hourly each with hourly peak.



It would be just increasing wear and tear across the network and as a passenger if I was expected to use the Entreprise or Mark 4's over the 22's I simply wouldn't, the 22's make other rolling stock dated and useless. The only difference is the FC offering.



Cork could easily be doable in 2h20m if pushed a little, even 2h15, the real problem on the route.

Problems on the route.
Portarlington - 60mph, when they redid the station better planning should of being done and not to have the curve. A full replacement of the points would probably help increase regardless of the bends.

Portlaoise - 25 or 30mph, complete replacement of points needed, can't see why it's so speed restricted. It should be 60-90 at least.

Limerick J - lack of second platform causes problems, Cork departures need to move to xx.15 from xx.20 to stop the recurring problems of trains sitting either side of the station.

Charville - Recent replacement of points, probably time until speed is increased further.

Mallow-Cork - possibly some scope to increase speed in parts to 90 from 80.

Whatever the problem is with points on IE's network, anywhere South of Cherryville is heavily speed restricted. It shouldn't be the case and 90 mph should be possible at most locations as is through Cherryville, Kildare, Newbridge and Nass.

Portarlington is 80mph - not 60mph.

Jamie2k9

no, if the cork hourly service was more or less non stopping traveling as fast as it could with a huge advertising campaign with good fairs then people will come and fill the trains, thats what IE should be doing, limerick would be 2 hourly and so would the stops beyond kildare/portaloise which i'd agree would upset some but if it helped the service between irelands 2 major cities then it could be worth it, jesus if they had bought enough ICRS they could have even made that hourly as well, but considering we haven't enough to even do rosslare and sligo theirs no hope, would do wonders for the railway though.

No it wouldn't. cutting 2 stops would save at most 6 minutes, not a lot on the grand scheme of tings. You still couldn't go flying through Limerick at 100mph, its around 40 or 50 now.

well then buying better track that doesn't wear and tear as quick should solve that problem, its about customers and services at the end of the day, people need to be attracted to the railway so improving and adding more services is essential

Yes but IE replacing tacks to allow this would be complete waste of money, most lines have 10 years left before new tracks are needed, all were replaced in early 90's. Also cost difference to.

well if you got a nonstopping train to waterford on the most crowded train each way morning and evening you would use it whatever the stock, why wouldn't you if the time suitid you?

Galway and Waterford have a 3 stop service in the mornings, non stop from either place would not be sustainable with the a few commuter stops.

I think that the Belfast route passengers would also rather keep the Enterprise - for its faults, it is still the most comfortable passenger experience by rail in this country. It will be even better if they can update it sympathetically and address its reliability issues.

Don't see its appeal but would be they should keep it.

As for stock, I think that NIR's C4Ks are possibly the finest of the current batch of DMUs. They are high capacity units suited for a mix of intercity and commuter duties. Their acceleration is also very impressive. The 22ks have not aged well due to IÉ's typically suspect maintenance regime.

Very little difference, NIR is more a commuter network anyway. As for aging, tbh I'm a little impressed how they 22's are being maintained. Yes I'm sure they have cut some costs with parts but this is not revisable. What's your issue with the aging of the 22?

Portarlington is 80mph - not 60mph.

Correction if I am wrong but down is defiantly slower than up, if that's from the network statement it may be incorrect.

LXFlyer

Portarlington is 80mph in either direction.

dowlingm

The way I would do it is to equip as many 22000s as possible with TPWS assuming (yes) it can be ripped and reinstalled from 201s and DVTs. The aim would be to be able to provide 4 or more service consists a day, where the current Enterprise roster can only manage 3 due to the fleet size and the use of 8 car sets. Would current users like Enterprise more in terms of comfort? Perhaps. Would they like an increased service pattern? I think so.

Having the EGVs Heuston side would also allow inchicore to keep a closer eye on them and decide whether the best course is to give up on the whole thing and refit the DVTs with new generators.

I think there might be an issue with swapping over the Mark 4s to Enterprise because the DVGTs having no seats might cause capacity issues due to platform length restrictions. 22000s obviously give biggest seats/length.

Jamie2k9

Having the EGVs Heuston side would also allow inchicore to keep a closer eye on them and decide whether the best course is to give up on the whole thing and refit the DVTs with new generators.

Would think EGV's are all under NIR control now for servicing. Communication is possible between both operators to discuss such issues.

Portarlington is 80mph in either direction.

Will take your word but on a trip on Friday we did not do 80 through the station, Train slowed from 100 to 30 ish and once it passed over the first points of the loop it started to pick up speed again.

Hungerford

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Would think EGV's are all under NIR control now for servicing.

I would seriously hope so as they bought the EGVs off Irish Rail for several million euro!

Captain Chaos

Inchicore are finished with looking after Mk3s altogether once the modifications for Enterprise vans was done. They are NIRs now.

Jamie2k9

Hungerford wrote: »

I would seriously hope so as they bought the EGVs off Irish Rail for several million euro!

I don;t know who the bigger fool is here!

IE charging NIR millions to improve a joinly operated service or NIR paying IE millions to improve a jointly operated service.

Just baffiled, both operators should of shared the refurb cots. Who's idea was it for the EGV's?

To me IE are better off, got money for teh EGV's and les costs maintaining the 201's.

bikeman1

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I don;t know who the bigger fool is here!

IE charging NIR millions to improve a joinly operated service or NIR paying IE millions to improve a jointly operated service.

Just baffiled, both operators should of shared the refurb cots. Who's idea was it for the EGV's?

To me IE are better off, got money for teh EGV's and les costs maintaining the 201's.

Jamie,

The way the Enterprise service works is that all rolling stock is maintained by NIR and the locos by IE. I would imagine that all costs are divided between the two companies as it is a joint operation.

Also the 201s get maintained at Incicore not Heuston.

Finally the main issue with the Cork mainline and speed is the amount of Temporay Speed Restrictions (TSRs) that spring up and are then left by IE for ages, resulting in trains slowing to 25/30/50 mph because of poor per way.

Jamie2k9

The way the Enterprise service works is that all rolling stock is maintained by NIR and the locos by IE. I would imagine that all costs are divided between the two companies as it is a joint operation.

I know all that, but NIR buying them off IE for a few million, where is the join operation here? It's not as if they cost IE anything only space in the last 6 yeras.

Finally the main issue with the Cork mainline and speed is the amount of Temporay Speed Restrictions (TSRs) that spring up and are then left by IE for ages, resulting in trains slowing to 25/30/50 mph because of poor per way.

Know all this only to well.


[QUOTEAlso the 201s get maintained at Incicore not Heuston. [/QUOTE]

Is there honestly a real different between both locations.

bikeman1

[QUOTEAlso the 201s get maintained at Incicore not Heuston. [/QUOTE]

Is there honestly a real different between both locations.[/quote]


Yes about 2 miles!

cgcsb

hawkwind23 wrote: »

i am quite disappointed with all this , the enterprise is by far the best experience on all of irelands lines both north and south.

by a refurb do they mean rip the comfy seats out and put those stock bus type plasticy ones in?
the front carriages are fine as they are.

only thing id complain about is the wifi and the bar area.

im just dreading all the money spent and all the character gone and being left with new uncomfortable seats , a few sockets and a digital display for seat names that everyone ignores.

would the money not be better spent on track and reliability off the engines?

know nothing about trains btw , i just enjoy travelling on the enterprise

The Dublin-Cork service is much better:
more comfortable seats
Power sockets at every seat
wifi that you can actually use
Air conditioning
windows that cancel out the baking effect the sun tends to have in the summer
Light and bright trains with LED displays, as opposed to the dark and dingey enterprises

cgcsb

I don't see the point to be honest. The service is still taking 2 hours 15 and is subject to frequent delay. How will the refit help improve this disgraceful journey time? Ten years from now, the trains will reach the end of their lives anyway. At that point would we be looking at electrification with completely new EMUs?

dregin

RTE Radio 1 seem to be airing a documentary on the enterprise atm.

dregin

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/doconone-podcast-rail-baggage-dublin-belfast-train-journey-part-2.html

Documentary on One
Rail Baggage : Part 2
Everyday hundreds of people travel back and forth on the Belfast to Dublin train, for work and pleasure, but as well as all the briefcases and handbags, what other 'baggage' is carried on board? ..

Actually done by BBC Radio Ulster.

GBOA

An old thread I know but rather than create yet another Enterprise thread (in which someone will no doubt revisit the subject of Mk3s getting scrapped), NIR are looking for painters to work on the Enterprise refurb. Maybe one of you is even qualified to apply?

http://www.translink.co.uk/Corporate/Work-With-Us/Current-Jobs/19619/