Protest in solidarity with Rory O'Neill/ Panti

baby and crumble

https://www.facebook.com/events/1417272788513254/

LGBT Noise have oranised a protest against the censoring of Rory's comments and RTE's subsequent apologies etc.

2pm, Sunday, Gaiety Theatre.

Rick_

What actually happened though? Perhaps a bit of context for those not in the know?

Bobby42

Basically Rory O' Neill appeared on the Saturday Night Show with Brendan O' Connor.

During the interview Rory said that Irish society has progressed greatly and the only places you usually see homophobia is in online comments and in sunday newspaper opinion pieces.

O' Conner asked which newpaper columnists and Rory said John Waters and the Iona crowd. he then told them to feck off out of his life, which drew a around of applause from the audience.

The next day Iona and Waters sent legal letters to RTE and O' Neill claiming that they had been defamed by being called homophobic.

The segment was edited out of RTE player.

Today RTE payed out to Waters and Iona.

In conclusion, no one is allowed to criticise the iona institute.

ninty9er

Has anyone considered that RTÉ don't go throwing money at people without good reason and that what Rory said had defamed the character of these people, even if they also do so by their own actions?

I have to feel sorry for the guy, but I think he should have brushed over the probe to name names.

Lyaiera

The truth isn't defamatory.

baby and crumble

ninty9er wrote: »

Has anyone considered that RTÉ don't go throwing money at people without good reason and that what Rory said had defamed the character of these people, even if they also do so by their own actions?

I have to feel sorry for the guy, but I think he should have brushed over the probe to name names.

The likes of Waters and Iona can basically lie about us, and yet when someone calls them up on it they get an apology and money flung at them? Money which, by the way, comes from us, who pay RTE €160 a year in licence fees. Their apology last week was awful, they basically said that 'dissenting views' were a part of democracy, yet the only dissenting views allowed airtime are homophobic ones.

ninty9er

You would have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt it is the truth.

While it's something plain to may people, there are none so blind as those who cannot see, and sometimes they occupy the bench.

Lyaiera

ninty9er wrote: »

You would have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt it is the truth.

No you don't.

ninty9er

baby and crumble wrote: »

The likes of Waters and Iona can basically lie about us, and yet when someone calls them up on it they get an apology and money flung at them? Money which, by the way, comes from us, who pay RTE €160 a year in licence fees. Their apology last week was awful, they basically said that 'dissenting views' were a part of democracy, yet the only dissenting views allowed airtime are homophobic ones.

You can dissent as much as you like once you focus on an issue and leave individuals out of it. Some people play that game very well, in this case Rory didn't.

baby and crumble

ninty9er wrote: »

You can dissent as much as you like once you focus on an issue and leave individuals out of it. Some people play that game very well, in this case Rory didn't.

To be honest, I think it's about time someone had the courage to do this. It's gotten people talking about homophobia and how it's not just about "hating gays" or beating them up. It's about insidious, creeping remarks that bear no resemblance to the truth. People need to know what the remarks that Waters, and Iona mean in the broad scheme. We can dismiss them as ridiculous, but an awful lot of people will see these remarks in the press, given legitimacy, and think it's perfectly fine to discriminate against gay people.

Annasopra

Paddy C wrote: »

What actually happened though? Perhaps a bit of context for those not in the know?

Rory O Neill was on Brendan O Connor

See transcript and link to clip

www.broadsheet.ie/2014/01/16/wisdom-is-bliss/

RTE edited it with a bizarre reference to Tom O'Gorman as an excuse

www.thejournal.ie/panti-rte-saturday-interview-1265925-Jan2014/

Rory O'Neill received solicitors letters from David Quinn, John Waters, Breda O'Brien and Patricia Casey.

It was then pointed out that John Waters has a conflict of interest

www.tuppenceworth.ie/blog/2014/01/21/rte-john-waters-and-regulating-outsider-voices/

He resigned but the Irish Times never referenced Panti Gate

www.ourmaninstockholm.com/2014/01/26/caught-with-our-pantis-down/

RTE apologised and paid Iona

www.thejournal.ie/rte-saturday-night-show-panti-comments-1283699-Jan2014/

www.thejournal.ie/rte-no-comment-damages-saturday-night-show-1287287-Jan2014/


www.ourmaninstockholm.com/2014/01/28/panti-mime-time-for-iona/

J_E

ninty9er wrote: »

Has anyone considered that RTÉ don't go throwing money at people without good reason and that what Rory said had defamed the character of these people, even if they also do so by their own actions?

I have to feel sorry for the guy, but I think he should have brushed over the probe to name names.

Let's get real here; had he not mentioned John Waters, none of this would have blown up to the size it did. John was on the BAI committee - clear abuse of position. Rory presented a reasonable and balanced discussion and was clear that saying that someone is homophobic is not damning. The names he mentioned are far from innocent characters, and some of John Water's comments coming up to that evening were blatantly discriminatory and damaging.

Here's that quote that's been floating around, headed “Gay lobby mangles meaning of marriage”

This is really a kind of satire on marriage which is being conducted by the gay lobby. It’s not that they want to get married; they want to destroy the institution of marriage because they’re envious of it and they feel really, that it’s an affront to their equality

Have you considered that RTE have under-running vested interests? It's not something I have been comfortable with believing, but it is starting to sound more like it.


Edit: you know what, while we're at it, let's get a soundbite from Breda O Brien also;

"It is never pleasant to take a stance like this, and it must be a thousand times less pleasant to be the person who is told that important values like equality must take second place to the common good. I would prefer if the conflict could be wished away, but it can’t."

Dilogoat

ninty9er wrote: »

You would have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt it is the truth.

Not at all. It would be a civil case so a balance of probabilities is all you need. Based on the Iona Institutes scaremongering, propaganda, comments and misrepresentation of studies I think it would be very easy to prove that the homophobia comment was not defamatory in the slightest and a very straightforward truth said on live TV. It's terrible to think that censorship of this nature is still happening. The Iona Institute are a ridiculous outfit but RTE are more ridiculous to fold over so easily. I'm outraged.

MicraBoy

The point is RTE are not willing to get involved in an expensive legal battle over this issue. This is critical to the forthcoming referendum on Marriage Equality as a line has been drawn in the sand about how one can publicly tackle the insidious opponents of equality on our national broadcaster. That line was dictated by the legal bullies of the people Rory O'Neill called out on the show. This is dangerous and anti-freedom of speech.

Dilogoat

It's a human rights violation. I am holding out some hope that there will be more on this issue. I am not happy that my TV license goes to RTE in the first place, let alone for them to hand over some of it to a bigoted, homophobic group such as the Iona Institute.

J_E

I never normally go to these protests but I reckon I could be up this Sunday - feel it's a rather important stand to take.

diddlybit

I going to miss it, have a wedding to go to. Awfully bad timing, but i shall carry on my angry email writing.

amdublin

My banner shall say Fek off Iona Institute!

diddlybit

Cydoniac wrote: »

Have you considered that RTE have under-running vested interests? It's not something I have been comfortable with believing, but it is starting to sound more like it.

I'd like to include the Irish Times and the Indo in that conspiracy theory, very disappointed that they haven't covered the story.

floggg

ninty9er wrote: »

You can dissent as much as you like once you focus on an issue and leave individuals out of it. Some people play that game very well, in this case Rory didn't.

Sorry, but they are homophobic. I don't think anybody would truly disagree.

You have to be able to call out homophobia when you see it. I don't think you shoujd legitimise bigotry by pretending it's just a difference of opinion.

They advocate discrimination against gay people. Let's not pretend that it's just polite disagreement.

J_E

diddlybit wrote: »

I'd like to include the Irish Times and the Indo in that conspiracy theory, very disappointed that they haven't covered the story.

Well, they already have columnists settled into both - handy, isn't it?

wp_rathead

Prepare for any protest to not to be covered by RTÉ news

baby and crumble

wprathead wrote: »

Prepare for any protest to not to be covered by RTÉ news

Its all a bit "Hairspray", isn't it?

floggg

diddlybit wrote: »

I'd like to include the Irish Times and the Indo in that conspiracy theory, very disappointed that they haven't covered the story.

Actually - I did come across this from the Irish Times.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/homophobia-watchdog-needed-before-marriage-equality-referendum-1.1660868?page=2

Not sure if she's being serious with the watchdog part, but definitely should be allowed call spades out for what they are.

mitosis

floggg wrote: »

Actually - I did come across this from the Irish Times.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/homophobia-watchdog-needed-before-marriage-equality-referendum-1.1660868?page=2

Not sure if she's being serious with the watchdog part, but definitely should be allowed call spades out for what they are.

Ouch! For someone so anti-discrimination that is some serious racist comment right there.

December2012

But.... But ..... Brendan o'connor asked him who he meant? He asked him to identify those whom he thought was homophobic? So really the "problem" was caused by Brendan O'connor?

J_E

This was made last year...finally the suits make sense! Especially good watch now.

But.... But ..... Brendan o'connor asked him who he meant? He asked him to identify those whom he thought was homophobic? So really the "problem" was caused by Brendan O'connor?

I don't think he foresaw what would happen - in fact, I think he was trying to steer Rory away from John Waters, that's what it sounded like to me.

lemon_sherbert

It seems extraordinary that the Irish Times were so quick to pay out. It certainly isn't cut and dry that to call someone homophobic is defamatory - I can think of two possible defences off the top of my head, truth and public opinion. I can't understand that the decision was made so quickly to try and settle the matter. It's a missed opportunity for RTE to stand up for the dignity and civil liberties of LGBT citizens. It's a damning representation of the public broadcaster, who ought to be seeking to defend freedom of expression, particularly when it concerns the victimisation of a minority.
Moreover, I think it frightening the amount of air-time and deference a private pressure group gets in our media.

floggg

mitosis wrote: »

Ouch! For someone so anti-discrimination that is some serious racist comment right there.

?

diddlybit

floggg wrote: »

?

I thought the same. Am I missing something?

Ten of Swords

lemon_sherbert wrote: »

Moreover, I think it frightening the amount of air-time and deference a private pressure group gets in our media.

They get this media access because of their 'other side of the coin' views. Broadcasters can't be seen to favour one side of a debate over the other each side gets equal access. There are plenty of groups and people in favour of LGBT rights and SSM and progressively fewer anti which means each anti side group will get comparatively more airtime to themselve in the interests of fairness and balance.

To be honest the whole thing has caused considerable harm to Iona's already tenuous reputation so although they have received money it's really shown their ugly side to the wider public, some of whom may not have previously had an opinion on them yet.

Rory has been fairly quiet on the whole thing, he seems pretty content to watch Iona, Waters et al take heat over this without getting too involved. Seems smart to me. I wonder what the letters he received actually said.

J_E

Just a heads up.

@AudreyCarville: The State's role in education. On @LatedebateRTE with @Colmogorman @AodhanORiordain Breda O'Brien & John Murray. #rteld 10pm @RTERadio1

2 Iona on panel. This could be interesting. Not sure why they're there when there are far better figure to discuss education in the country.

Doop

diddlybit wrote: »

I'd like to include the Irish Times and the Indo in that conspiracy theory, very disappointed that they haven't covered the story.

To be fair the Indo have covered it a bit... the silence from RTE and The Irish Times is deafening... maybe im niave but I am dissappointed they're not covering it from a news prospective... I had more faith

Indo covers the deal cut..
http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/tv-radio/rte-cuts-part-of-show-after-legal-complaint-from-waters-29921034.html

RTE cuts part of show after legal complaint from Waters;
http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/tv-radio/rte-cuts-part-of-show-after-legal-complaint-from-waters-29921034.html

John Waters resigns;
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/john-waters-resigns-from-broadcasting-watchdog-29944485.html

The journal also are not afraid to get stuck in! theyre probably loving it!

Open letter in thejournal today from a barrister;

DEAR SIR/MADAM,

I am writing to complain about the apology to members of the Iona Institute given by Brendan O’Connor, a broadcaster on RTE television, last weekend in connection with an interview the previous week with Rory O’Neill, a well known gay rights advocate in Ireland.

Mr O’Neill had expressed the view that the Iona Institute was homophobic. He made clear that he did not mean by this that they wanted to beat people up. Rather, he made clear that his definition of homophobia involved treating gays and lesbians differently.

That is, in fact, within the definition of homophobia accepted by many – including the Merriman Webster dictionary, which makes clear that homophobia includes discrimination against gays or lesbians. I refer you in this regard to the definition contained at the following link:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homophobia

Mr O’Neill’s comments arise in a context where the Iona Institute is well known in Ireland for its opposition to affording equal marriage rights to gays and lesbians and also for its opposition to same-sex parenting. It seeks to maintain the current discrimination whereby same-sex couples are prohibited from marrying whereas opposite sex couples are free to do so.
In these circumstances, it is clear that Mr O’Neill was entirely entitled to express his honestly held opinion, which was based on facts that were reasonably known to the public.

It is astonishing, therefore, that RTE, a national broadcaster, should apologise for what Mr O’Neill has stated, censor his interview on the internet and award public money to those in the Iona Institute who have sought to prevent a free debate on equal marriage by preventing gay rights campaigners from uttering in future that opposition to same-sex marriage is homophobic. It is positively Orwellian (or even Putinesque) that, having done so, Mr O’Connor in his apology should stress the importance of free debate, as if Mr O’Neill had in any way tried to impede it.

It appears that there will be a referendum on the introduction of equal marriage in the next two years. By its censorship of Mr O’Neill, RTE has undermined confidence in its impartiality and has also made clear that it will not facilitate a free and fair debate. This is a profoundly serious matter for any broadcaster, not least one which purports to be the national broadcaster.
For these reasons, I wish to complain. Given the seriousness of the implications of what has happened for the ability of LGBT communities to express their opinions in the context of the forthcoming referendum on national television, I am sending a copy of this complaint to Mr Niels Muiznieks, Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights. You might be good enough to copy your response to Mr Muiznieks also. As you will be aware, Mr Muiznieks has been clear in recent times that silencing voices against homophobia violates human rights. I am sure that, in those circumstances, you will be keen to explain to him why RTE took the actions that it did.
In the event that I do not receive a satisfactory response, I will be writing to the Council of Europe Commissioner and also encouraging NGOs in Ireland also to do so.

However, I should stress that this is not merely a matter affecting LGBT groups. It seems to me that the apology provided by RTE has rather far reaching implications for other groups also. I am sure that RTE would not want to be seen simply to have treated one minority group differently to other groups in society.
In those circumstances, it is now incumbent on RTE to provide clarification on what it will not permit to be stated in other contexts also. RTE should therefore make clear what it will and will not tolerate in the following scenarios:
A person states that women should not be allowed to work outside the home. Is it permissible on Irish Television to offer the opinion that the person is a misogynist, even if one makes clear that he or she believes that misogyny includes discrimination against women?

A person states that Ireland should have fewer immigrants. Will RTE censor any person who states that the speaker is xenophobic?

A Northern Ireland politician objects to an Orange Order march, stating that the Orange Order is sectarian. Will RTE prevent the broadcast of such utterances and provide compensation to leading lights in the Orange Order?

If, however, any of the above is permissible, will RTE explain why it is not equally permissible to state that a group that campaigns against same-sex marriage is homophobic?

If the above is not now permissible, it is important that the public are made aware of what they may and may not say on Irish television. RTE should therefore issue comprehensive guidance on the above new restrictions to, for example, women TDs, women’s organisations, Northern Ireland politicians, ethnic minority organisations who commonly make such utterances, quite without consequence, on RTE at this time.

Please confirm that you are willing to do so. I would also be grateful if you could in due course furnish me and, more importantly, Mr Muiznieks with a copy of any guidance issued.

Yours sincerely,
Brian Barrington

(Brian Barrington is a practising barrister and expert on Equality and Human Rights. He has long been involved with the Marriage Equality campaign, offering advice and legal opinion.)

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/gay-rights-rory-oneill-panti-bliss-iona-institute-homophobia-1288277-Jan2014/

Annasopra

mitosis wrote: »

Ouch! For someone so anti-discrimination that is some serious racist comment right there.

I don't understand

J_E

https://soundcloud.com/user727747666/rteld-debate

Here is the show for reference.

anotherlostie

Thanks for that link - that was fantastic. All I was missing was the popcorn (and the visual of BO'B squirming in the chair...)

Cydoniac wrote: »

https://soundcloud.com/user727747666/rteld-debate

Here is the show for reference.

J_E

"Don't panic darling" will go down as a Bredaism.

Doop

I've never written a proper complaint in my life... todays been a first!

complaints@rte.ie
complaints@bai.ie

J_E

http://theoutmost.com/opinion/the-anita-bryant-effect/ Phenomenal piece on where Iona could be heading.

Lou.m

Cydoniac wrote: »

https://soundcloud.com/user727747666/rteld-debate

Here is the show for reference.

The education piece was very good too and true.

Lou.m

Cydoniac wrote: »

http://theoutmost.com/opinion/the-anita-bryant-effect/ Phenomenal piece on where Iona could be heading.

I want the Iona institute to be exposed and denounced for what it is. But I do not want people destroyed they are human too and I would rather alter opinion by being gracious in my opposition to them.

One thing is very true though. This has warned us not to sit on our laurels. Also we have to be honest this is not the first time Panti Bar or Rory have been a target for leaflets etc.

And youth defense is sometimes guilty of bad faith. Particularly in using one debate to take a bat to other groups (such as the posters outside gay bars on abortion).

I don't take pleasure in people's lives being negatively impacted. I want to take the higher moral ground.


I am uncomfortable being radical. But if what is what is called for to do the right thing then we have to consider responsible radical action.

The Iona institute are regressive and live in a scary world view. Usually I find such people to be fragile and delicate.

J_E

Lou.m wrote: »

The education piece was very good too and true.

The fundamental thing Iona are missing, is that calling someone homophobic should not be considered a damnation but an observation. Iona will not be reasonable on this matter. I also find it very hypocritical how Iona talk about having a fair stage for debate and to take people 'on good faith' when they immediately shut down what I would consider, one of the most important talks Ireland may have, not just on the matter of homosexuality, but also on the basis of discrimination and debunking words like 'homophobia'. On one hand, shame on them for that. On the other hand, they have inadvertently put themselves on a very steep cliff, and have given the people of Ireland a new degree of awareness on the issue that millions of euro wouldn't be able to achieve on campaigns. So in a sense, they've really done themselves in with this. You could tell Breda was quite on edge and did not want to discuss the subject, you can imagine possibly why.

In terms of an actual defamation court case, they wouldn't hold up...3 of the members of Iona are quoted on the internet with very specific comments that are considered discriminatory, not to mention Iona's own publications, particularly the one on Civil Unions and also the research spin that they were shown up on. Even by the end of the radio show Breda was told her figure on the Educate Together school was way off.

By deliberately trying to shut reasoned debate down, they're killing their credibility left right and centre. I hope people are smart enough to look past the silence of RTE to see this.

In a twisted sense, I'm glad this happened. It gave the community a good reason to pick up the pace. I'm looking forward to the march on Sunday.

Lou.m

Cydoniac wrote: »

The fundamental thing Iona are missing, is that calling someone homophobic should not be considered a damnation but an observation. Iona will not be reasonable on this matter. I also find it very hypocritical how Iona talk about having a fair stage for debate and to take people 'on good faith' when they immediately shut down what I would consider, one of the most important talks Ireland may have, not just on the matter of homosexuality, but also on the basis of discrimination and debunking words like 'homophobia'. On one hand, shame on them for that. On the other hand, they have inadvertently put themselves on a very steep cliff, and have given the people of Ireland a new degree of awareness on the issue that millions of euro wouldn't be able to achieve on campaigns. So in a sense, they've really done themselves in with this. You could tell Breda was quite on edge and did not want to discuss the subject, you can imagine possibly why.

In terms of an actual defamation court case, they wouldn't hold up...3 of the members of Iona are quoted on the internet with very specific comments that are considered discriminatory, not to mention Iona's own publications, particularly the one on Civil Unions and also the research spin that they were shown up on. Even by the end of the radio show Breda was told her figure on the Educate Together school was way off.

By deliberately trying to shut reasoned debate down, they're killing their credibility left right and centre. I hope people are smart enough to look past the silence of RTE to see this.

In a twisted sense, I'm glad this happened. It gave the community a good reason to pick up the pace. I'm looking forward to the march on Sunday.

People know that they are willing to do anything that they can get away with. It is tougher to do that in a small country in Ireland.

It is no secret who they are and the way they behave not just to the LGBT community but i have read some articles about minorities in the Guards for example that are just unacceptable and there point of view on education is regressive.

The thing is they are the champion of what most Irish people hate. I think they know this.

If they don't realize that all Irish people hate the moral strait jacket of the past they are living in loolaland.

Lou.m

Cydoniac wrote: »

The fundamental thing Iona are missing, is that calling someone homophobic should not be considered a damnation but an observation. Iona will not be reasonable on this matter. I also find it very hypocritical how Iona talk about having a fair stage for debate and to take people 'on good faith' when they immediately shut down what I would consider, one of the most important talks Ireland may have, not just on the matter of homosexuality, but also on the basis of discrimination and debunking words like 'homophobia'. On one hand, shame on them for that. On the other hand, they have inadvertently put themselves on a very steep cliff, and have given the people of Ireland a new degree of awareness on the issue that millions of euro wouldn't be able to achieve on campaigns. So in a sense, they've really done themselves in with this. You could tell Breda was quite on edge and did not want to discuss the subject, you can imagine possibly why.

In terms of an actual defamation court case, they wouldn't hold up...3 of the members of Iona are quoted on the internet with very specific comments that are considered discriminatory, not to mention Iona's own publications, particularly the one on Civil Unions and also the research spin that they were shown up on. Even by the end of the radio show Breda was told her figure on the Educate Together school was way off.

By deliberately trying to shut reasoned debate down, they're killing their credibility left right and centre. I hope people are smart enough to look past the silence of RTE to see this.

In a twisted sense, I'm glad this happened. It gave the community a good reason to pick up the pace. I'm looking forward to the march on Sunday.

Yes agreed but we need to be tactical we can't lose the goodwill it has generated towards us and we cannot bait apathy.

The way to win is let your opponent make mistakes.

Let's be as nice as we can whilst having a zero tolerance policy on inequality of all kinds the Iona institute does not approve of cohabiting couples and single parents. We must give parity to their attitudes towards women.

In May 2011, the Iona Institute hosted a conference entitled "Women, home and work: Towards a policy that’s fair to all families", which highlighted the social policies that it claims unfairly discriminate in favour of working women over mothers who wish to spend some or all of their working lives at home with their children

They are viciously homophobic sexist and racist. But what really hangs them is that they are socially conservative regarding all relationships and sex in general.
I am not saying that this is going to be part of the debate or that it should be.

But they seem to be pissing off the general public on a number of issues.

diddlybit

Lou.m wrote: »

I want the Iona institute to be exposed and denounced for what it is. But I do not want people destroyed they are human too and I would rather alter opinion by being gracious in my opposition to them.....

Yes, but people are masters of their own fate (no pun intended), I think the article demonstrated this. I don't belive that the outcome would be the same, but Iona's greatest fear is that they will become irrelevant. But as national broadcasters keep giving them a platform, they present the appearance of being more influential than they are, rather than a well-funded group peddling views that most Catholics would disagree with.

Lou.m wrote: »

......I don't take pleasure in people's lives being negatively impacted. I want to take the higher moral ground.

I think this is really important, especially as they have adopted the rhetoric that are being persecuted, silenced and victimised. The LGBT community really doesn't need to give them any more fuel.

Cydoniac wrote: »

https://soundcloud.com/user727747666/rteld-debate

Thanks for this, as I missed it last night. I now have a complete hero crush on Colm O'Gorman.

garrigus

Even though I personally dont agree with them, I think John Waters and the Iona institute people are entitled to their opinion. Its a sad state of affairs when people are shot down because of their views.

hotmail.com

garrigus wrote: »

Even though I personally dont agree with them, I think John Waters and the Iona institute people are entitled to their opinion. Its a sad state of affairs when people are shot down because of their views.

The basis of those opinions were called into question..or the motivation behind them. They weren't shouted down.

It was the Iona people that issued legal threats after all.

J_E

~€80,000.


...


Looking forward to seeing you all there. If you recognise me, stop me to have a chat. (Pic @ www.twitter.com/cydoniac)

MicraBoy

Cydoniac wrote: »

€80,000.


...


Looking forward to seeing you all there. If you recognise me, stop me to have a chat. (Pic @ www.twitter.com/cydoniac)

85K

J_E

MicraBoy wrote: »

85K

Even worse. It could be 1c for all it matters and still be an outrage. It would have been kept private had iona not showed it off

MicraBoy

More Panti brilliance