organic farming

Water John

148multi wrote: »

What part of the country are you in

The peoples republic of...Cork. Remember I'm reasonably elevated but his land has been tillage ground. Think Winter oats would have to be well established here before the Winter.

148multi

Water John wrote: »

The peoples republic of...Cork. Remember I'm reasonably elevated but his land has been tillage ground. Think Winter oats would have to be well established here before the Winter.

Well if you were west of the Shannon or North of longford I would say winter oats, but different laws apply to the people's Republic of Cork.
I understand that dry land with sandstone in it makes great oat growing land.

Water John

Ha, plenty water here. Not dry land either. Good beet land and could grow maize if it was at a lower elevation.

Gawddawggonnit

Water John wrote: »

Question lads and lassies, if ye were to grow oats, would ye go for winter or spring oats?

Winter.
Plant around the first week in October. Plant it good and thick to maximize allelopathy. Use a high yielding spring variety to gain on biomass and enhance your weed suppression. Don’t plant it too thick or mildew will butcher it.

Markcheese

I suppose it depends on rotation , if it's in grass before you plough it down would you be better getting an early bite off that ground ? , ( or use it as a sacrifice field that you don't mind the cows pugging up ) ,
I suppose the other thing is weeds , not only are your winter oats well established in spring so are your weeds , and probably less chance to weed them out ... ( Clean ground and good ploughing could take care of that though ) ...
Where in cork are you ? Would there be anybody else nearish who does a bit of organic tillage ?

blue5000

WJ what would be a good organic rotation? Would oats be better the second year after a rape/kale type crop?

Water John

Yeah one guy about 8 miles away, but much lower. Half has a rape cover crop ATM the other half is a silage type sward, standing grass. Mid Cork. Will be talking to different people next week on it.

Scheme reopens an Monday and criteria to be published the same day. Will be very annoyed if it again favours large acreage, that's just wrong.

Gawddawggonnit

blue5000 wrote: »

WJ what would be a good organic rotation? Would oats be better the second year after a rape/kale type crop?

Oats is an excellent break crop in itself..but I suppose you knew that.

You’d often get take all after beet etc, but it’s rare to see it after oats. Oats is a very underestimated crop. Brilliant for conditioning the soil also.

Gawddawggonnit

Water John wrote: »

Yeah one guy about 8 miles away, but much lower. Half has a rape cover crop ATM the other half is a silage type sward, standing grass. Mid Cork. Will be talking to different people next week on it.

Scheme reopens an Monday and criteria to be published the same day. Will be very annoyed if it again favours large acreage, that's just wrong.

Are you looking to grow oats for harvest, or are you looking for a cover crop to graze?

Water John

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Are you looking to grow oats for harvest, or are you looking for a cover crop to graze?

Oats for your porridge. Listening to Tom Fouhy, he undersows the oats with crimson and medic clover.

Gawddawggonnit

Water John wrote: »

Oats for your porridge. Listening to Tom Fouhy, he undersows the oats with crimson and medic clover.

Is that Tom Fouhy of Green Acres?

Water John

He's from Fermoy:
https://www.farmingfornature.ie/nominees/thomas-fuohy/

Markcheese

If you're plowing down a good clover lay , and stitching in clover would there be a worry of oats lodging ?

Water John

Got your point. Might not undersow the second year, depending on soil test.

Gawddawggonnit

Water John wrote: »

He's from Fermoy:
https://www.farmingfornature.ie/nominees/thomas-fuohy/

Small world indeed.
That farm would possibly be one of the best in the country and I’d know every inch of it. Some huge crops of sbeet came out of there. There’s a serious vein of groundfalls (sluggeras?) throughout that farm.
Fair dues to him for being organic without any livestock. There wouldn’t have been a beast on it with decades.
It must’ve been divided between his siblings because I think there was well over 200ac there.

Nice fella is Tom.

Gawddawggonnit

Water John wrote: »

Got your point. Might not undersow the second year, depending on soil test.

Every second year is nearly enough for a heavy clover crop because it can put the Ca:N balance out of kilter...

Water John

He might have half, the other half is farmed conventionally.

blue5000

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Small world indeed.
That farm would possibly be one of the best in the country and I’d know every inch of it. Some huge crops of sbeet came out of there. There’s a serious vein of groundfalls (sluggeras?) throughout that farm.
Fair dues to him for being organic without any livestock. There wouldn’t have been a beast on it with decades.
It must’ve been divided between his siblings because I think there was well over 200ac there.

Nice fella is Tom.

Give us non Cork farmers a clue, never heard of these before. Only thing we have that might be close to that is shallow depressions in what used to be a turlough in limestone.

Markcheese

Water John wrote: »

Got your point. Might not undersow the second year, depending on soil test.

Are you thinking of going stockless continuous tillage and min-till as well ?
Or combining it into a grazing and pasture rotation ?
Always though wheat was a good first year crop after plowing down a grass lay ,(you get the benefit of the nitrogen) , any clover stitched into the wheat might give you a late boost of nitrogen for the wheat , and you've already got a cover crop established .
Might not be much straw available for bedding cattle though ..

Water John

Rotation with multi species grazing and some silage red clover swards, would be the plan. Really it works around getting an oat crop.
See the scheme is open:
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/organic-farming-scheme-opens-for-applications/

blue5000

Is anyone here thinking of signing up? I'd have a few thoughts, just have a few questions.

My biggest problem is housing, at present I have cubicles with slatted passages, which from reading the organic requirements are not allowed. 50% of the area has to be bedded with a natural material. It looks like straw for bedding is either going to be expensive or unavailable. Is woodchip an acceptable alternative? Is lime on cubicles allowed as it is a natural material?

I've tried growing barley in the past without inputs, and to be honest, the only way it would pay is to make it into organic whiskey, wait 12 years and sell it for €250 a bottle. It was a disaster. How good is the organic oats market and will it be viable with a few 100 more new entrants? Only about half of my land is arable, so a rotation for tillage crops is limited, I will need livestock on at least half the farm.

The whole beef thing. The smart lads are getting the contracts first and then going to the organic sales and buying cattle to suit the contracts. That isn't possible with suckling. Should I cut cow numbers by half and try finishing half what I currently sell or just sell / give away weanlings or stores at less than the cost of production?

Horticulture seems to be dependent on free labour from woofers. Is this viable? Would you work for free? Where is the market for this as I can't see myself traipsing around the country to farmer's markets 3 days a week.

I know inputs are going to be reduced, but is it viable to build more livestock housing and sell less? I don't think so unless the sheds are going to be really cheaply built with poles instead of steel.

I haven't mentioned the extra paperwork, inspections and registration. I do know that some farmers have changed back to conventional farming from organic. Any answers would be appreciated.

Water John

Blue I sympathise with your dilemna, most of us anguish over it TBH. The inspection burden isn't huge TBH.
Yes 50% straw bedding, don't think woodchip but could be wrong. About 2.5m2 per adult animal. Maybe a scraficial paddock instead? Need to check with your advisor. Lime is fine.

I've decided to sell heavy stores at the end of the month, won't carry that lot to finish anyway. Suddenly today thought of the fact I'm not QA but have my organic licence. I suppose I'd be more hopeful that someone like Flahavans would be more reliable on price than the beef factories.

The oars for example, listening to Tom Fouhy saying undersow it with crimson and medic clovers will give N. Put in multi species/redclover as the break from oats and use that as your winterfeed. That would finish cattle.
I'm only starting out too.

jntsnk

Can you import cattle slurry from other farmers if you go organic?

Water John

Yes cattle slurry, not pigs and poultry because of how they are farmed intensively.

Oats yield would be about 1.5/2t per ac and priced at €350+ per T.

Say my name

Anyone have a link to a site or whatever of the can's and cannot's do of organic farming in Ireland?

Water John

SNM, you sent me searching:
Here are the EU Rules, have a good read
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32007R0834

The above are located on this Dept of Ag Organic site
https://www.gov.ie/en/service/d46aec-organic-farming-scheme/

This is the original site carrying all the Dept of Ag Schemes
https://www.gov.ie/en/services/?organisation=department-of-agriculture-food-and-the-marine


Lads looking to organics, need to read up and also listen to all the stuff out there, eg todays Farming Indo p30 has a piece from John Liston who is organic and has moved from dairying to suckling. Now he has 200 acres near Croom.
But he mentions the desire for meat from a grass only diet. There is interest in that in milk too. Pasture For Life is a good place to look
https://www.pastureforlife.org/

There is no simple advisor out there.

Markcheese

Water John wrote: »

Yes cattle slurry, not pigs and poultry because of how they are farmed intensively.

Oats yield would be about 1.5/2t per ac and priced at €350+ per T.

Are there restrictions on imported cattle slurry ? ,as in what the cattle are wormed with ect , ( and maybe even fed ) , I maybe remembering that wrong though, ..

orchard farm

blue5000 wrote: »

Should I cut cow numbers by half and try finishing half what I currently sell or just sell / give away weanlings or stores at less than the cost of production .

Welcome to my world

Water John

Markcheese wrote: »

Are there restrictions on imported cattle slurry ? ,as in what the cattle are wormed with ect , ( and maybe even fed ) , I maybe remembering that wrong though, ..

Don't think so, but possibly need to check as an indoor all year round dairy might not be compatible. Certainly don't take feedlot cattle slurry, but that might just be my bias. It would be hard to justify, if questioned.

For you lads trying to make choices, here's The Clash; Should I stay or should I go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN1WwnEDWAM

Markcheese

Blue , barley is probably one of the hardest cereals to grow organically in Ireland , because it's all dwarf varieties ... So won't really out compete the weeds ,