organic farming

blue5000

Markcheese wrote: »

Blue , barley is probably one of the hardest cereals to grow organically in Ireland , because it's all dwarf varieties ... So won't really out compete the weeds ,

Well in 2018 mine certainly was short anyway, I don't think there was 20 bales of straw off a 5 acre paddock:o/

Water John

blue5000 wrote: »

Well in 2018 mine certainly was short anyway, I don't think there was 20 bales of straw off a 5 acre paddock:o/

I'd say it was Orkney 90 day barley you grew:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bere_(grain)

IFA's Nigel Releghan has an online Q & A tomorrow night for the new Organic Scheme. Might have to be a member to register.

tractorporn

blue5000 wrote: »

Is anyone here thinking of signing up? I'd have a few thoughts, just have a few questions.

My biggest problem is housing, at present I have cubicles with slatted passages, which from reading the organic requirements are not allowed. 50% of the area has to be bedded with a natural material. It looks like straw for bedding is either going to be expensive or unavailable. Is woodchip an acceptable alternative? Is lime on cubicles allowed as it is a natural material?

Yes you can use sawdust or wood chip for bedding as long as it's not treated. Lime is allowed for cubicles but you have to use some sort of bedding along with it. Most lads using a sawdust and lime mix like cubibed now.

I've tried growing barley in the past without inputs, and to be honest, the only way it would pay is to make it into organic whiskey, wait 12 years and sell it for €250 a bottle. It was a disaster. How good is the organic oats market and will it be viable with a few 100 more new entrants? Only about half of my land is arable, so a rotation for tillage crops is limited, I will need livestock on at least half the farm.

In all honesty the market for organic barley is small only boortmalt taking it and its been a closed shop for the last two years anyway. Oats is a different story Flavhans looking for people and Glanbia came into the market last year so has kept manners on Flavhans

The whole beef thing. The smart lads are getting the contracts first and then going to the organic sales and buying cattle to suit the contracts. That isn't possible with suckling. Should I cut cow numbers by half and try finishing half what I currently sell or just sell / give away weanlings or stores at less than the cost of production?

That's what a lot of guys do. If your in the wrong part of the country stores are hard got.

Horticulture seems to be dependent on free labour from woofers. Is this viable? Would you work for free? Where is the market for this as I can't see myself traipsing around the country to farmer's markets 3 days a week.

From my viewing of it the guys at hort are in two groups. Small scale so they can work with one labour unit or field scale so that they can employ some along with woofers. Direct selling is the key but like beef farmers those guys don't put any value on their time stood at a farmers market

I know inputs are going to be reduced, but is it viable to build more livestock housing and sell less? I don't think so unless the sheds are going to be really cheaply built with poles instead of steel.

Not unless you can get the extra premium for it. The Oats are worth it imo.

I haven't mentioned the extra paperwork, inspections and registration. I do know that some farmers have changed back to conventional farming from organic. Any answers would be appreciated.

The inspections are no worse than bord bia. Just my two cents

Edit my replies are in the body of the quoted text sorry

tractorporn

Water John wrote: »

Yes cattle slurry, not pigs and poultry because of how they are farmed intensively.

Oats yield would be about 1.5/2t per ac and priced at €350+ per T.

You can bring in anything as long as the stock aren't permanently housed so that's why pigs and broilers are ruled out

tractorporn

Water John wrote: »

I'd say it was Orkney 90 day barley you grew:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bere_(grain)

IFA's Nigel Releghan has an online Q & A tomorrow night for the new Organic Scheme. Might have to be a member to register.

No I registered yesterday and I'm not with IFA

Water John

Tractor did you get a PIN number for the meeting yet, nothing here?

tractorporn

Water John wrote: »

Tractor did you get a PIN number for the meeting yet, nothing here?

Got an email with a link round 4pm

Water John

Below are links to the T & C also Individual Application:
https://www.gov.ie/en/service/d46aec-organic-farming-scheme/

This is the points ranking that will be used:
https://www.irishorganicassociation.ie/wp-content/uploads/OFS-Ranking-Selection-Criteria.pdf

Any of the 63 pilgrims who applied in 2018 and did not get in should get in on this points basis. The Q & A done by Nigel Reneghan IFA during the week was quite helpful.

blue5000

Thanks WJ for the links, I see beef is worth 10 points and poultry is worth 50 points. How many hens would I need to get for the 50 points?:rolleyes:

Maybe an organic puppy farm would be a more lucrative enterprise. I'd be as far on feeding the suckler cows to the dogs. Sorry, don't mean to be so negative, just feeling a bit p1ssed off as it's March.:(

Edit I see 150 laying hens and 250 broilers is a poultry enterprise min.

Water John

Mainly beef and sucklers would do fine IWT, if they could grow 3ha cereals.

jntsnk

blue5000 wrote: »

Thanks WJ for the links, I see beef is worth 10 points and poultry is worth 50 points. How many hens would I need to get for the 50 points?:rolleyes:

Maybe an organic puppy farm would be a more lucrative enterprise. I'd be as far on feeding the suckler cows to the dogs. Sorry, don't mean to be so negative, just feeling a bit p1ssed off as it's March.:(
Edit I see 150 laying hens and 250 broilers is a poultry enterprise min.

They are not interested in organic beef. All other sectors will take priority.

Water John

Or lamb, but for those at that, Mixed Enterprise gets you points. So, seeing is there something you can do in some area?

'I see 150 laying hens and 250 broilers is a poultry enterprise min.' Blue

Duck eggs. How many hens equate to a duck?

Markcheese

blue5000 wrote: »

Edit I see 150 laying hens and 250 broilers is a poultry enterprise min.

How many points do you need ?

Looking after 150 hens is a fairly handy number .. who's going to count them ?

Water John

I think around 40 points was mentioned by Dept of Ag in the IFA Q & A, but considering the last time??? It was 72 that time.
They expect to be able to take 4/500.

Birdnuts

jntsnk wrote: »

blue5000 wrote: »

Thanks WJ for the links, I see beef is worth 10 points and poultry is worth 50 points. How many hens would I need to get for the 50 points?:rolleyes:

Maybe an organic puppy farm would be a more lucrative enterprise. I'd be as far on feeding the suckler cows to the dogs. Sorry, don't mean to be so negative, just feeling a bit p1ssed off as it's March.:(
Edit I see 150 laying hens and 250 broilers is a poultry enterprise min.

They are not interested in organic beef. All other sectors will take priority.

Organic beef is currently well supplied - the big shortfalls are in poultry, pork, veg and grains

Water John

A point to remember is that whilst you have until the end of April to apply, it's important when you register with either of the two regulatory bodies and be approved ASAP. In 2 years time and you're planting cereals, you have to be in conversion for 2 years. For your crop to be organic on the third year it must be after that.

tractorporn

Water John wrote: »

I think around 40 points was mentioned by Dept of Ag in the IFA Q & A, but considering the last time??? It was 72 that time.
They expect to be able to take 4/500.

I was surprised to hear the Department lad at the meeting the other night say a couple of times that the Department expects 99% of people to get into the scheme. They see to think that 400/500 will hoover up anybody thats interested in joining.

Water John

Probably basing that on the last round where 250(c) applied. Think a lot more will this time too because of the state on mainstream agri and in effect a lot of guys actually use little bag manure. It will be a pity if it's used by most to simply keep the show on the road for another few years.

Milk will be a tough lift, there are 61 organic dairy farms in the country at present. Arable is relatively straight forward but the market could be filled quite easily.

rounders

Very very interesting few posts about how to properly manage hedgerows. Thought the audiance here might be interested

https://twitter.com/FavColour_Green/status/1368894629773459460?s=20

Dinzee Conlee

rounders wrote: »

Very very interesting few posts about how to properly manage hedgerows. Thought the audiance here might be interested

https://twitter.com/FavColour_Green/status/1368894629773459460?s=20

Just on hedges - we don't really have good hedges here, we have ditches with some briars. But no trees / bushes as such on most... And if the sheep outwinter they wouldnt be long almost eating/knocking what briars are there...

Would it be better in the long term to plant whitethorn, but to do so would mean cutting the briars bare. So short term no ditch/hedge, but long term good hedge (hopefully)

endainoz

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Just on hedges - we don't really have good hedges here, we have ditches with some briars. But no trees / bushes as such on most... And if the sheep outwinter they wouldnt be long almost eating/knocking what briars are there...

Would it be better in the long term to plant whitethorn, but to do so would mean cutting the briars bare. So short term no ditch/hedge, but long term good hedge (hopefully)

I think every farmer should plant some portion of a hedge on their farms. Species need to be mixed well though. There is the "trees on the land" initiative where you can buy hedging to get delivered to you but there has been serious delays on orders this year.

A willow/hazel hedge would be very easy to establish as you just literally stick the whips into the ground and they have a good chance of growing, you would need more varieties on there though. I've often wondered if horse could work as a hedge plant if it is managed the right way.

Dinzee Conlee

endainoz wrote: »

I think every farmer should plant some portion of a hedge on their farms. Species need to be mixed well though. There is the "trees on the land" initiative where you can buy hedging to get delivered to you but there has been serious delays on orders this year.

A willow/hazel hedge would be very easy to establish as you just literally stick the whips into the ground and they have a good chance of growing, you would need more varieties on there though. I've often wondered if horse could work as a hedge plant if it is managed the right way.

Do you mean gorse (or furze as we call it)

We have bits of in ditches, its not much use. Would prefer briars to be honest. Grows into one big bush, stifles anything under it, falls over very easy.

Water John

Think the concept of the hedgerows being wildlife corridors will become quite important. It will be a measure that all farmers can adopt and will be especially useful for dairy and tillage farms.

Water John

For those who will need to do the training course, here's a link to one being run online by NOTS, recommended.
Two options either May or July:
https://nots.ie/events/organic-production-principles-online-may/

yosemitesam1

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Do you mean gorse (or furze as we call it)

We have bits of in ditches, its not much use. Would prefer briars to be honest. Grows into one big bush, stifles anything under it, falls over very easy.

Furze is one of the best food souvres for pollinators. Cutting it to the base and leaving it regrow every 5-10 years would be a perfectly sound management strategy.
Whats important for wildlife is more that there is some sort of cycle of renewal (whatever form that takes) rather than trying to maintain the perfectly thick whitethorn hedge

Siamsa Sessions

Hi all,

I set 2 acres of herbal ley last year and the docks are starting to emerge again now.

Has anyone here ever spread foliar molasses on docks to encourage cattle to eat them? I think you’re supposed to add a foliar seaweed too but I can’t justify spending €400 on a 20kg bag of pelleted seaweed so I’m wondering if the molasses alone might work.

Thanks

Say my name

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Hi all,

I set 2 acres of herbal ley last year and the docks are starting to emerge again now.

Has anyone here ever spread foliar molasses on docks to encourage cattle to eat them? I think you’re supposed to add a foliar seaweed too but I can’t justify spending €400 on a 20kg bag of pelleted seaweed so I’m wondering if the molasses alone might work.

Thanks

When always wondering on price. Cost it per acre.

Cattle eating the docks here but I've the combination above. Never went with molasses on it's own.
There's a way to find out though Siamsa.

Went with high cell count milk and molasses once...nearly burnt the sward out of it.

wrangler

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Hi all,

I set 2 acres of herbal ley last year and the docks are starting to emerge again now.

Has anyone here ever spread foliar molasses on docks to encourage cattle to eat them? I think you’re supposed to add a foliar seaweed too but I can’t justify spending €400 on a 20kg bag of pelleted seaweed so I’m wondering if the molasses alone might work.

Thanks

Sheep always controlled the docks here, would they not eat them for you.
You must have fertile soil, Potash is to docks what nitrogen is to grass

Siamsa Sessions

wrangler wrote: »

Sheep always controlled the docks here, would they not eat them for you.
You must have fertile soil, Potash is to docks what nitrogen is to grass

They don’t seem to eat them much here but they’ll be going onto the multi-species stuff in a few days so we’ll see then

tractorporn

For anyone interested in the scheme the IOA are doing a webinar on Wed 31st on how to fill out the forms. They read out a text number on countrywide Saturday morning but I can't remember it. I'd say if you contact them they will register you for it.