organic farming

TheClubMan

blue5000 wrote: »

My biggest problem is housing, at present I have cubicles with slatted passages, which from reading the organic requirements are not allowed.

I think I read on the Teagasc website a while back that cubicles are allowed once they have more space in them than conventional farming, there's more cubicles than cows and they're bedded with straw or sawdust. Maybe they need access to a straw bedded area too but I'm not sure.

Water John

There is a bedding product called something like medicube allowed. It's a mix of sawdust and lime. Think I heard of it, somewhere else, not here. Try and find it in my notes.

It's called Cubibed.

Markcheese

I'm a bit rusty on regs , but I think cubicles can be fine, as long as they also have a "lounging " area ...,
( A place I briefly worked was thinking of converting to organic had an old slatted cubicle house , and an open yard area next to the slatted house ,that would have been their extra space ... , their cubicles were a bit small though

endainoz

Markcheese wrote: »

I'm a bit rusty on regs , but I think cubicles can be fine, as long as they also have a "lounging " area ...,
( A place I briefly worked was thinking of converting to organic had an old slatted cubicle house , and an open yard area next to the slatted house ,that would have been their extra space ... , their cubicles were a bit small though

There is a certain criteria for the size of the cubicles alright, but they can be used towards the bedding area.

Water John

These are the organic cattle I decided to offload in Kilmallock yesterday:
521kg Red Lm €1,470
581kg Ch €1,480
503kg Ch €1,340
540kg Black Lm €1,420
535kg Ch €1,170
Last guy looked imperfect, so fine.
Very happy, makes room also to set oats. Lad was ploughing yesterday until the rain stopped him. Hopefully get that in this week.

JohnChadwick

Is there a minimum stocking rate for the organic farming scheme?

Water John

Actually don't know John.

Picking stones today, are they organic now? Would there be a market?

JohnChadwick

Water John wrote: »

Actually don't know John.

Picking stones today, are they organic now? Would there be a market?

Did you know that after ploughing fields it takes the soil microbiology approx 20 years to recover to its pre-ploughed state.

Say my name

Water John wrote: »

These are the organic cattle I decided to offload in Kilmallock yesterday:
521kg Red Lm €1,470
581kg Ch €1,480
503kg Ch €1,340
540kg Black Lm €1,420
535kg Ch €1,170
Last guy looked imperfect, so fine.
Very happy, makes room also to set oats. Lad was ploughing yesterday until the rain stopped him. Hopefully get that in this week.

That's what I was wondering.
This is your second year in transition to organic I think?
Are the cattle able to be sold as organic when you are still in transition?

Say my name

JohnChadwick wrote: »

Did you know that after ploughing fields it takes the soil microbiology approx 20 years to recover to its pre-ploughed state.

Hard to believe 'A Plowmans folly' was published in 1943. Author Edward H. Faulkner, an African American county agent in Kentucky and Ohio.

orchard farm

JohnChadwick wrote: »

Is there a minimum stocking rate for the organic farming scheme?

0.5 lu/ha in order to get full payments otherwise its payed on a pro Rata base

148multi

TheClubMan wrote: »

I think I read on the Teagasc website a while back that cubicles are allowed once they have more space in them than conventional farming, there's more cubicles than cows and they're bedded with straw or sawdust. Maybe they need access to a straw bedded area too but I'm not sure.

You can use cubicles only, need more cubicles than animals, mats with sawdust are what most lads seem to go with, but if you have access to cheap bedding, the animals will prefer the bedded area and ignore the cubicles.

Water John

I know ploughing isn't optimum. I'd be delighted to leave the stones in place.
Any suggestions as to planting a grass field with oats without ploughing it? Would have liked to shallow plough it 2 to 4 inches, it was done at 6.
If one could terminate the existing crop and and get the seed growing straight away then the microbiome should transfer to the new roots.
Hopefully will manage these tillage fields without any more ploughing and getting them back into grass. Think I'll be moving forward about 6 acres each year.
If my grass sward was sequestrating 4T carbon/year and someone paid me well for that, I'd be happy.

I'm in Organic 2 years since January. Inspector has passed me, waiting for the Full Certification. Will forward that to the buyers, if they want it.

SouthWesterly

Water John wrote: »

I know ploughing isn't optimum. I'd be delighted to leave the stones in place.
Any suggestions as to planting a grass field with oats without ploughing it? Would have liked to shallow plough it 2 to 4 inches, it was done at 6.
If one could terminate the existing crop and and get the seed growing straight away then the microbiome should transfer to the new roots.
Hopefully will manage these tillage fields without any more ploughing and getting them back into grass. Think I'll be moving forward about 6 acres each year.
If my grass sward was sequestrating 4T carbon/year and someone paid me well for that, I'd be happy.

I'm in Organic 2 years since January. Inspector has passed me, waiting for the Full Certification. Will forward that to the buyers, if they want it.

Was watching a film during the week about no dig farming in the US. They were multicropping fields and only using a soil cutter disc to place the seeds in the soil with the result of minimal soil disturbance.

Sowing legumes with the corn resulted in a 40% reduction of nitrogen being spread on the field.

Water John

Combi cropping will come in big time. Wheat and beans is a good one to follow grass. Separate the two after harvest. Reduce disease risk, crowd out weeds.
I intend setting low annual clover(crimson) in the oats. Made a mistake two years ago undersowing the oats with grass/red clover. Shouldn't undersow with red clover as it grows tall. Hopefully, the clover will give a nitrogen boost to the oats later on.

rounders

Water John wrote: »

Combi cropping will come in big time. Wheat and beans is a good one to follow grass. Separate the two after harvest. Reduce disease risk, crowd out weeds.
I intend setting low annual clover(crimson) in the oats. Made a mistake two years ago undersowing the oats with grass/red clover. Shouldn't undersow with red clover as it grows tall. Hopefully, the clover will give a nitrogen boost to the oats later on.

How does the separating later work? Just some sort of sieve based on the size of the grain vs the pea? Would you do it yourself or would the buyer? Sorry for all the questions!

On a similar note, does anyone supply peas or beans for human consumption? All contracts I can find seem to be for animal feed. I like the idea of growing something that's fed directly to the person instead of cattle

Markcheese

Water John wrote: »

Combi cropping will come in big time. Wheat and beans is a good one to follow grass. Separate the two after harvest. Reduce disease risk, crowd out weeds.
I intend setting low annual clover(crimson) in the oats. Made a mistake two years ago undersowing the oats with grass/red clover. Shouldn't undersow with red clover as it grows tall. Hopefully, the clover will give a nitrogen boost to the oats later on.

I'm pretty sure wheat benefits from a late nitrogen boost - but does it suit oats ? More likely to lodge ?

Always thought crimping a combi crop would work well , not so worried about moisture levels then ,but you either need to use the crop yourself or have a customer near by ..
But you've a bit more flexibility - to either get the crop off earlier and get a cover crop established - or just get the crop off in a wet autumn ..

Water John

Yeah a sieve separates the beans from the wheat.

No, the oats won't lodge hopefully and the N boost will help fill out the grain.
Tillage isn't difficult, only for the fecking stones. Will be looking at some min till option on the ground having its second crop next year.

rounders

Water John wrote: »

Yeah a sieve separates the beans from the wheat.

No, the oats won't lodge hopefully and the N boost will help fill out the grain.
Tillage isn't difficult, only for the fecking stones. Will be looking at some min till option on the ground having its second crop next year.

On lodging, I thought if it gets too much nitrogen the straw grows too quickly causing it to be weak resulting in lodging?

Thought I read that someone was using clover as a cover crop before grain when the nitrogen levels were already plenty high enough causing too much nitrogen to be available for the crop etc.

Caveat, I've no idea where I read that so I could easily be wrong or made it up in my head

trabpc

Am interested in Joining but only currently have 20 Ha. Rest leased out for another 2 years.

Most Organic bodies say, all who apply should get in but they take your Organic fee and there is no guarantee.... But I'm not so sure, id say interest will be high and I'm only dry stock, so way down the pecking order. Most off-putting thing for me is there is no period of transition i.e. on 1st May and you need to be fully Organic compliant. With 30 Calves still to rear with milk replacer(not allowed). 20 Stores being fattened in shed, Factory fit end May. 5 Ton of fertiliser remains in yard-what do I do with that. I could probably source organic nuts for calves, but getting Clover sown takes time. The full stop use of fertiliser would be hard to manage. if I had a month or 6 weeks I could work it. but the sudden change!

Problem is once you join there is an Inspection within 2 weeks so not sure if they allow for any small period of adjustment. If it was November it would be a lot easier. Am I right in saying by next housing-Nov 2021, I need to have lie back in place on slatted housing too?

endainoz

trabpc wrote: »

Am interested in Joining but only currently have 20 Ha. Rest leased out for another 2 years.

Most Organic bodies say, all who apply should get in but they take your Organic fee and there is no guarantee.... But I'm not so sure, id say interest will be high and I'm only dry stock, so way down the pecking order. Most off-putting thing for me is there is no period of transition i.e. on 1st May and you need to be fully Organic compliant. With 30 Calves still to rear with milk replacer(not allowed). 20 Stores being fattened in shed, Factory fit end May. 5 Ton of fertiliser remains in yard-what do I do with that. I could probably source organic nuts for calves, but getting Clover sown takes time. The full stop use of fertiliser would be hard to manage. if I had a month or 6 weeks I could work it. but the sudden change!

Problem is once you join there is an Inspection within 2 weeks so not sure if they allow for any small period of adjustment. If it was November it would be a lot easier. Am I right in saying by next housing-Nov 2021, I need to have lie back in place on slatted housing too?

It certainly sounds like you have your mind made up on it already! Some of your info is a bit off aswell I'm afraid. When I applied in the last scheme, the organic certification body were quite clear that there was no guarantee I would get into it.

You're correct in that you'll be down the pecking order. Priority is again going to be given to dairy and tillage lads. If you do apply you would probably have to return the fert and source organic meal. You will also have to have a lie back area for the animals at housing.

I hadn't heard anything about getting inspected just two weeks after joining but that may have changed.

There is a two year conversion period but yeah your silage ground will probably go into a bit of a "shock" if you suddenly stop feeding it chemical fertilizer. You have to start focusing on soil health and making use of slurry and the dung you'll have from your bedding area. Clover is relatively easy to broadcast on ground after it has been cut up to early July, the seeds are quite small so it'll need to be mixed with something like gran lime.

It's definitely a fair commitment to go organic, but I don't regret doing it. It made me really look at farming from a totally different perspective, and I find there's great satisfaction in it. Be warned though, learning about soil health and how to fix it can get quite addictive!

Water John

Yeah, a difficult call. Are you in Glas? That would be giving you similar money. You can't get the two on the same field.
I was one of the ones burned the last time. At least now Ministers are more proactive. In fairness Doyle did his best but Creed had no interest at all.

I remember I had a small bit of leeway with the ration in the yard. no chance of that with fertiliser. On the other hand it's worth €4,400for the first two years to you.
Would you be better off having a plan for 2 years time when you've all the land back. Mind me asking the ball park of ground?

trabpc

Yep had mind made up i was going to go in. I really see the benefits of it and will not follow into the white gold rush.... aka dairy.

But then started to panic about calves and stock near finished. I think as suggested I need to start incorporating more clover now and slowly reduce fert. And be in better position in 2 yrs if it hopefully opens again. I think if it opened in sept October it would be alot easier. Land varies from good but there would be peaty ground in 25% some requiring drainage. 20ac native wood too.

In Glas with THM and LIPP so that reduces payments (on the 20ha) to 1st yr net of approx €1500 after fee etc. Wouldn't go far on lie back etc. Overstocked too at 2.5 LU HA. Id have 40 ha next yr and maybe in better position then to reduce stocking and start incorporating clover. I'd be going for environmental reasons but would need the financial help to assist with all the changes.

If it was June I would be in a great position to join. Stock reduced, Fert gone calves reared.....

trabpc

endainoz wrote: »

It certainly sounds like you have your mind made up on it already! Some of your info is a bit off aswell I'm afraid. When I applied in the last scheme, the organic certification body were quite clear that there was no guarantee I would get into it.

Info not off.... It was from the two organic bodies attended all online conferences on it. I'm not knocking it im very much in favour of it. Both have said inspection within two weeks. Think you joined a while ago so what was standard then in relation to first inspection may have changed. They aslo stated they expect most applications to get in. Not sure if it was a way to get in as much fees as possible or did they have info in relation to nr of potential applications. Wonder if I rang them next week would they tell me how many have applied. Doubt they would.

endainoz

trabpc wrote: »

Info not off.... It was from the two organic bodies attended all online conferences on it. I'm not knocking it im very much in favour of it. Both have said inspection within two weeks. Think you joined a while ago so what was standard then in relation to first inspection may have changed. They aslo stated they expect most applications to get in. Not sure if it was a way to get in as much fees as possible or did they have info in relation to nr of potential applications. Wonder if I rang them next week would they tell me how many have applied. Doubt they would.

Yeah I was very lucky to get in the last time the scheme opened, it's certainly a good idea to visit down the line but at the end of the day, it's all about what suits your own system.

Introduction of clover and multi species swards should be a priority for all farmers, organic or not with the way things are going and it's also a great way to reduce your overall fert input. There's a short organic course that teagasc do for anyone applying to the scheme, I'd recommend anyone to do it and see if organic I'd for them, it has great info.

trabpc

endainoz wrote: »

Yeah I was very lucky to get in the last time the scheme opened, it's certainly a good idea to visit down the line but at the end of the day, it's all about what suits your own system.

Introduction of clover and multi species swards should be a priority for all farmers, organic or not with the way things are going and it's also a great way to reduce your overall fert input. There's a short organic course that teagasc do for anyone applying to the scheme, I'd recommend anyone to do it and see if organic I'd for them, it has great info.

Totally agree. If i read earlier correct, you have 40Ha in it. Do you mind me asking your stocking rate then vs now in Organics. Still on fence over applying. Thinking of offloading stores in Mart. That would leave me in better position.

endainoz

endainoz wrote: »

Yeah I was very lucky to get in the last time the scheme opened, it's certainly a good idea to visit down the line but at the end of the day, it's all about what suits your own system.

Introduction of clover and multi species swards should be a priority for all farmers, organic or not with the way things are going and it's also a great way to reduce your overall fert input. There's a short organic course that teagasc do for anyone applying to the scheme, I'd recommend anyone to do it and see if organic I'd for them, it has great info.

Is that course available online?

blue5000

Deleted User wrote: »

Is that course available online?

I think all the courses are online this year due to covid. It's a pity really as the courses would be a good way to get to know other organic farmers.

endainoz

blue5000 wrote: »

I think all the courses are online this year due to covid. It's a pity really as the courses would be a good way to get to know other organic farmers.

Yeah and we visited local organic farms with different types on enterprises aswell.

endainoz

trabpc wrote: »

Totally agree. If i read earlier correct, you have 40Ha in it. Do you mind me asking your stocking rate then vs now in Organics. Still on fence over applying. Thinking of offloading stores in Mart. That would leave me in better position.

My sticking rate was lower anyway to accommodate for the lie back area, this suited my system. If I were you I'd try to have a chat with a proper organic advisor to see what they might say.