organic farming

Prop Joe

…1

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162461#Comment_119162461

Problem is a lot of them have bells and whistles. While sheds are expensive at present it's gets crazy when you put in a lot of stuff that is not really necessary. All these cost money, things like locking barriers, gates between pens, drafting area's, doors in and out of sheds, thicker sheeting, vented sheeting.

Something's are worth getting but they all come at a cost.

Siamsa Sessions

Farmer changed from organic to conventional dairy.

Not much on the why in this article beyond the opportunity to expand but some interesting points re clover

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/lessons-from-a-successful-clover-farmer-707105?fs=e&s=cl

endainoz

Would many organic lads have rubber mats on slats to cut down on straw bedding altogether? I'm not sure of straw prices this year but it might make financial sense to just use straw for calfing and rubber mats for the rest of the housing season? Obviously assuming the animal has enough space from slats. Are they very expensive to install?

orchard farm

Even if you have rubber mats on slats you still need dry lye back bedded area for cows

TheClubMan

Is anyone here supplying organic milk to Glenisk or other organic processors? What is the current milk price and has the milk price risen in line with inflation? Organic milk is supposed to be a premium product so I'd imagine it has gone up. Be interesting to hear

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119324236#Comment_119324236

Even if they had enough space on the slats? Isn't there a poster here that doesn't use straw? I may have read that wrong.

orchard farm

Up to 50%area can be slats but at least half has to be dry bedded.straw,rushes,woodchip etc how much or how little is open to interpretation

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119325884#Comment_119325884

I spoke to an organic dairy farmer two months ago and his co-op/company were paying 50c then. Conventional was low 40s at that stage. Not sure if they have increased organic price since. He claimed conventional price would drop over time but organic price wouldn't.

tractorporn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326309#Comment_119326309

Yes if you house cattle on only slats and the inspector comes out it's a higher non-compliance and the Department fine you 50% of your organic payment.

TheClubMan

Not much of an incentive for farmers to go down the organic dairy route if conventional is making more. Glanbia were paying suppliers 52c in May. Fair enough conventional suppliers have massive fertiliser bills this year but they have higher milk output than organics who have still been affected by higher electricity, contractor, silage plastic etc. costs this year. I know the price is more for organic winter milk but conventional is the same

893bet

I am still trying to figure if organic is worth the hassle for the extra payment.

An extra 5k. Lose 700 of it to Registration. Weanling quality has to suffer. No fert or meal bills as such but hard to house cows in the winter without the odd shake of meal for a cow that’s gone bare etc.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119328514#Comment_119328514

Once you see the price of organic nuts you'll soon lose the habit of an "odd shake" of nuts 🤣

Cran

I think key to organic livestock farming is keeping much if not all feed production in house. Problem seen on some organic walks is difficulty in finishing animals on land type being used, and lot of organic tillage farms are near 100% tillage as there is demand for food standard cereals. Have yet to see how dairy would work except large scale low stocking rate & low invest debt.

Organic farms that seem to work really well are good mixed farm setups.

Silverdream

An organic farm near us and it's not much of an advertisement for it. Thistles as big as trees, no grass now in this dry weather yet there are hardly any cattle on the farm. The place just looks abandoned and wild in places. I think a lot of Organic farming here is done with the cheque in the post in mind only. No real difference from a conventional farm other than neglect and poor output. Farmland is a limited commodity and should be used properly

youllbemine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119329970#Comment_119329970

Was that farm any different before it went organic? Management is a huge aspect of it. A poorly managed farm is a poorly managed farm. Might have a few more beasts about the place with fertiliser being spread but only really masking problems.

Sad Professor

test

Edit: bumping worked! Thread is back

JohnChadwick

Saw these figures and quite interested to see how close organic beef farms would be to this bottom line, with suckler to weanling instead of suckler to beef.

On similar hectares here and on similar land (circa 55ha) but no direct selling so sales are around 28.5k, but don't have abattoir costs of 4.5k then. Probably end up with the same bottom line. Just curious to compare it as direct selling looks like time consuming craic to be at.

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119327312#Comment_119327312

I think part of the problem might be the big processors. If for example one of them started making organic butter and exported it to Germany. It would not be long before conventional butter sales to Germany would dry up. The domestic market for organic dairy produce is probably well supplied already.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339067#Comment_119339067

That's great going.

Does that person do their own silage.

JohnChadwick

Yea silage is contractor I'd say.

Probably would account for another 2k in under contractor costs myself though (for silage and slurry). And remove the motor from that as that's not really a farm expense in my case.

blue5000

Bumping this for James2022 it’s here

Tomjim

is there a good supply of organic suck calves from the dairy farmer ie if I went organic would I be able to access 10/12 whitehead /aa organic calves every spring?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364376#Comment_119364376

No. Organic calves have to be fed whole milk for 12 weeks. By the time they are that old you might as well hold onto them. You would hardly get Friesian calves not to mind Hex calves

MIKEKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119327178#Comment_119327178

I would think the rule about keeping half your stock on straw would keep a lot of people out

893bet

Is the organic payment going up? Plus a participation payment flat rate also?

JohnChadwick

In organic 5 or 6 years and don't use any straw. Cubicles and open yard space only.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119366387#Comment_119366387

Which organic society are you with?

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119366304#Comment_119366304

2k of a sweetner for new entrants announced this morning.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119366901#Comment_119366901

Payments up to 300 per ha and 250 when converted then.

Prop Joe

What about existing participants

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119367129#Comment_119367129

It is getting harder and harder not to be cynical about the Govt approach to organics.

Throwing more money at it coz not enough farmers signed up last time hardly addresses the concerns farmers had only last year. Lack of market, large scale changes at farm level (stock levels, possible new enterprises, new buildings), additional red-tape, transitioning land to zero synthetics, and what ever other reasons farmers had.

By the way, did anyone in DAFM ask/survey farmers about what their concerns are around converting?

So, I would suggest what the Govt are doing isn't about existing participants, and possibly not even about the food being produced or the environment. It's about numbers and optics to show they are doing something. Throwing money at a complex issue is the laziest option.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119367129#Comment_119367129

Seems to be 250 instead of 170 I think. Pretty decent jump.

tanko

What is the minimum stocking rate for organics?

minerleague

See in journal Tullamore farm going to cost changing to organic at open day, be interesting to see what changes would be needed even if they don't change

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119367494#Comment_119367494

0.5LU per hectare

 (32.5 KG Organic Nitrate per ha/per annum) 

JohnChadwick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119367479#Comment_119367479

Is that 250 paid to organic farmers who are still doing organic farming after the initial 5 year stint?

tractorporn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119367512#Comment_119367512

No it was dropped to 0.15LU/Ha last year and is dropping again to 0.1LU/ha next year in line with ANC.

All the payments including the lump sum will be available to existing farmers as they will have the option of entering a new 5 year scheme in January. The lump sum is not over the line with the commission yet so it could be scrapped yet.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119368353#Comment_119368353

As tractorporn said below it'll be for all farmers. In fairness it would be terribly unfair if it wasn't. Now all we need is confirmation that AECM payments won't take away from organics and we'll be laughing.

smallbeef

Is there anything stopping you buying non-organic calves, rearing them and selling them conventionally? So would have no true organic stock but would farm organically?

Silverdream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119368568#Comment_119368568

afaik the rules of Organics don't allow for this. You can and will have some non-organic stock at the start but going forward you must end up with all organic stock by the end of the transition period. You can get an exemption to buy a non organic calf for a Cow that lost her calf but this may not always be the case as they might be enough Organic stock to meet demand in the future

Silverdream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331209#Comment_119331209

I think you hit the nail on the head. A poorly managed farm is what it is regardless of the Organics

smallbeef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119368831#Comment_119368831

Yeah I figured it wasn't allowed alright. The availability of young organic stock will be a major constraint to lads doing calf to beef etc. Would need to be at sucklers for a beef system really so as just not enough organic dairy calves so price of them could be crazy - and organic beef output price is just not going to pay for it, a lot of organic beef goes conventional I hear which is a shame.

Silverdream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119368849#Comment_119368849

Traditional breeds are more suitable for Organics, even the older rare breeds. But as soon as they are sold as conventional the price drops off a cliff as some of the organic stuff can be very small compared to Continental type cattle

Siamsa Sessions

Minister Hackett confirms what it’s all about in her conclusion

tanko

Is the outwintering of cattle allowed under Organic farming?

Limestone Cowboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119369507#Comment_119369507

Ya herself is in it. 17 cows on 150 very poor boggy craggy acres. Everything out, very little feeding. Take what you get for the calves. It's leaving a nice touch at the end of the year.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119369651#Comment_119369651

The few bales she got were of very high quality I heard. 😂

josephsoap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119369507#Comment_119369507

the money is looking very tempting this time - it’s getting harder to dismiss the idea of going organic (with the sucklers anyway )

893bet

Will acres etc be stackable is the question.