organic farming

Gawddawggonnit

Water John wrote: »

Not allowed have conventional feed on the farm.
Bovine slurry is allowed to be imported, not pig or poultry. Straw is the other conventional input allowed without a derogation.
Most I know in organics would steer between the lines. As poster above says, the Licence Inspector will spot any messer quickly.

Why is non-organic bovine slurry allowed?

From what I see here the vast majority grow their own cereals. Organic manures are only allowed to be imported onto organic farms.
Friends of mine grow a fair share of grains and they’re organic since2000 but they rely on creating their own manures from green waste collected from up to 100km away. The waste is composted and spread. They’ve no livestock whatsoever and struggle to keep soil nourished.


France imports a large amount of organic food and testing at point of entry shows about 6-9% to be contaminated with chemicals...everyone seems to try it on.


Angus beef is now big news. Irish Angus had the big beef contracts here until dna testing showed that a lot of the ‘Angus’ beef had no Angus whatsoever...Angus breeding heifers and bulls are making €3000+.
I can’t understand why such an important label would/could be abused by unscrupulous gob****es.

wrangler

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Why is non-organic bovine slurry allowed?

From what I see here the vast majority grow their own cereals. Organic manures are only allowed to be imported onto organic farms.
Friends of mine grow a fair share of grains and they’re organic since2000 but they rely on creating their own manures from green waste collected from up to 100km away. The waste is composted and spread. They’ve no livestock whatsoever and struggle to keep soil nourished.


France imports a large amount of organic food and testing at point of entry shows about 6-9% to be contaminated with chemicals...everyone seems to try it on.


Angus beef is now big news. Irish Angus had the big beef contracts here until dna testing showed that a lot of the ‘Angus’ beef had no Angus whatsoever...Angus breeding heifers and bulls are making €3000+.
I can’t understand why such an important label would/could be abused by unscrupulous gob****es.

Allowing non organic slurry makes it very simple to keep soil indexes up, it's surprising that it's allowed.

manjou

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Why is non-organic bovine slurry allowed?
There are rules around importing cattle slurry. It cannot come from intensive farms ie derrogation farms. Also yiu need soil test to say you need it.

From what I see here the vast majority grow their own cereals. Organic manures are only allowed to be imported onto organic farms.
Friends of mine grow a fair share of grains and they’re organic since2000 but they rely on creating their own manures from green waste collected from up to 100km away. The waste is composted and spread. They’ve no livestock whatsoever and struggle to keep soil nourished.


France imports a large amount of organic food and testing at point of entry shows about 6-9% to be contaminated with chemicals...everyone seems to try it on.


Angus beef is now big news. Irish Angus had the big beef contracts here until dna testing showed that a lot of the ‘Angus’ beef had no Angus whatsoever...Angus breeding heifers and bulls are making €3000+.
I can’t understand why such an important label would/could be abused by unscrupulous gob****es.

The reason for this is who controls the distribution of angus beef and they have no problem supplementing limo beef if not enough angus beef to supply market
Unfortunatly same company now control 99% of organic beef so expect the same to happen it.

yosemitesam1

wrangler wrote: »

Allowing non organic slurry makes it very simple to keep soil indexes up, it's surprising that it's allowed.

Could you import all the slurry from a non derogation beef/dairy herd and they import the same amount of pig slurry that they exported?
Using artificial fert and buying in conventional meal isn't uncommon from what I've seen, the approach of taking in enough slurry/manure to bump oneselves up to 170kg n is also done

Water John

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Could you import all the slurry from a non derogation beef/dairy herd and they import the same amount of pig slurry that they exported?
Using artificial fert and buying in conventional meal isn't uncommon from what I've seen, the approach of taking in enough slurry/manure to bump oneselves up to 170kg n is also done

You're making fairly wide allegations of a niche industry. Should you know such matters then you should tell the Dept section in Wexford or notify the two organic standards authorities. We'd all be very grateful.

Siamsa Sessions

Water John wrote: »

You're making fairly wide allegations of a niche industry. Should you know such matters then you should tell the Dept section in Wexford or notify the two organic standards authorities. We'd all be very grateful.

How would the use of non-organic feed be checked?

It's completely against the spirit of the idea and I'm not looking for ways to "get away with it". I'm not even organic, just interested.

Are there spot checks? Is the beef/milk/oats leaving the farm tested? Or is it all built on trust?

I'm guessing as more farmers enter organic schemes, then the risk of people playing loose with the guidelines increases. Especially as price is likely to drop with increased supply. So maybe more strict monitoring might eventually be needed? Which kinda takes the good out of it.

endainoz

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

How would the use of non-organic feed be checked?

It's completely against the spirit of the idea and I'm not looking for ways to "get away with it". I'm not even organic, just interested.

Are there spot checks? Is the beef/milk/oats leaving the farm tested? Or is it all built on trust?

I'm guessing as more farmers enter organic schemes, then the risk of people playing loose with the guidelines increases. Especially as price is likely to drop with increased supply. So maybe more strict monitoring might eventually be needed? Which kinda takes the good out of it.

It's possible to get a surprise inspection at 30 mins notice as well as the yearly scheduled inspections.

JohnChadwick

endainoz wrote: »

It's possible to get a surprise inspection at 30 mins notice as well as the yearly scheduled inspections.

Aren't spot residue tests also undertaken at factories? To check for gmo feed.

blue5000

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Could you import all the slurry from a non derogation beef/dairy herd and they import the same amount of pig slurry that they exported?
Using artificial fert and buying in conventional meal isn't uncommon from what I've seen, the approach of taking in enough slurry/manure to bump oneselves up to 170kg n is also done

It's not only the 170kg N that limits organic farmers' importation of slurry, it's soil P indices. Slurry from an intensive beef finishing farm wouldn't be allowed either AFAIK.

Water John

blue5000 wrote: »

It's not only the 170kg N that limits organic farmers' importation of slurry, it's soil P indices. Slurry from an intensive beef finishing farm wouldn't be allowed either AFAIK.

Yeah, not from a feedlot. It's the intensive nature of the activity and the indoor housing in a concentrated setting of animals or birds, rules out their manure being used on an organic farm. This comes from the focus on animal welfare.

Base price

A new organic specialist has been appointed to Teagasc -
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/teagasc-fills-organic-specialist-position-624134

Jjameson

While I abhor Sinn Fein with a passion I think there’s a lot of truth in this. While I’m sure Pippa Hackett is a fine person she won’t be able move anything on. Wrong party.
She is a sensible politician who identifies as Green Party. And unfortunately Green Party are far from sensible.
I would also doubt that she has any influence on senior civil servants to achieve anything.
Organics need a party of influence and that has to be ff or fg to get some real funding.




https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/news/politics/hackett-failing-miserably-to-make-impact-sinn-fein-40461292.html

endainoz

Jjameson wrote: »

While I abhor Sinn Fein with a passion I think there’s a lot of truth in this. While I’m sure Pippa Hackett is a fine person she won’t be able move anything on. Wrong party.
She is a sensible politician who identifies as Green Party. And unfortunately Green Party are far from sensible.
I would also doubt that she has any influence on senior civil servants to achieve anything.
Organics need a party of influence and that has to be ff or fg to get some real funding.




https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/news/politics/hackett-failing-miserably-to-make-impact-sinn-fein-40461292.html

It did get some real funding, and less people applied for the latest scheme than expected.

Jjameson

endainoz wrote: »

It did get some real funding, and less people applied for the latest scheme than expected.

4 million?
And even at that the few that are in it are not able to find premium markets, and are precluded from other properly funded enviro schemes.
An abject failure of a scheme in my view so far.

100 million was found for fg/ifa to headline propoganda pamphlets to compensate for unregulated beef processing cartel profiteering.

Jjameson

Jjameson wrote: »

She is a sensible politician

She's not, if you've followed her commentary for any length of time.

She's actually come up in conversation with different people in positions of having to deal with her, from an array of interests, who give the same assessment - completely out of her depth with advisors who aren't up to their job, or who's advice isn't being taken.

endainoz

Jjameson wrote: »

4 million?
And even at that the few that are in it are not able to find premium markets, and are precluded from other properly funded enviro schemes.
An abject failure of a scheme in my view so far.

100 million was found for fg/ifa to headline propoganda pamphlets to compensate for unregulated beef processing cartel profiteering.

I get what your saying, but if the interest isn't there, Im not sure what else they can do.

It should work better with the REAP scheme whenever it get the proper national rollout where an organic farmer could draw from both instead of just one like they way it currently is with GLAS

Jjameson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

She's not, if you've followed her commentary for any length of time.

She's actually come up in conversation with different people in positions of having to deal with her, from an array of interests, who give the same assessment - completely out of her depth with advisors who aren't up to their job, or who's advice isn't being taken.

Ah for the crowd she’s with she’s not the worst!

Jjameson

Jjameson wrote: »

Ah for the crowd she’s with she’s not the worst!

A ringing endorsement

JohnChadwick

endainoz wrote: »

I get what your saying, but if the interest isn't there, Im not sure what else they can do.

It should work better with the REAP scheme whenever it get the proper national rollout where an organic farmer could draw from both instead of just one like they way it currently is with GLAS

What are you basing this on?

Be great if you can get organic and reap on the same parcel...

endainoz

JohnChadwick wrote: »

What are you basing this on?

Be great if you can get organic and reap on the same parcel...

I'm basing this on that you can't draw an organic payment from land that you are drawing a GLAS payment on. I have 10 Ha of LIPP that I can't get organic payments on.

tractorporn

JohnChadwick wrote: »

What are you basing this on?

Be great if you can get organic and reap on the same parcel...

You can't

Current organic farmers are on the list of excluded farmers in the REAP terms and conditions

JohnChadwick

endainoz wrote: »

I'm basing this on that you can't draw an organic payment from land that you are drawing a GLAS payment on. I have 10 Ha of LIPP that I can't get organic payments on.

Oh right, thought you mentioned that in REAP an
organic farmer could draw from both instead of just one like they way it currently is with GLAS.

wrangler

JohnChadwick wrote: »

Oh right, thought you mentioned that in REAP an
organic farmer could draw from both instead of just one like they way it currently is with GLAS.

Organiic is supposed to be the highest evironmental standard, Glas and Reap would only be lessening the standard on your farm

JohnChadwick

wrangler wrote: »

Organiic is supposed to be the highest evironmental standard, Glas and Reap would only be lessening the standard on your farm

Maybe it'll be possible to be in Organic but get REAP money from doing bits like hedgregrows and watercourses...

wrangler

JohnChadwick wrote: »

Maybe it'll be possible to be in Organic but get REAP money from doing bits like hedgregrows and watercourses...

It'd probably be seen as been double compensated for the same task, is hedge maintenance and watercourse maintenance not prt of the organic scheme already

Water John

Yes you can be in different schemes, just that you can't, as Wrangler says, draw twice on the one piece of ground. Think that would be an EU Rule anyway.
It may also be, because REAP is a Pilot scheme.

JohnChadwick

Water John wrote: »

Yes you can be in different schemes, just that you can't, as Wrangler says, draw twice on the one piece of ground. Think that would be an EU Rule anyway.
It may also be, because REAP is a Pilot scheme.

Ya you would be OK to simultaneously get the Organic payment and the REAP Payment (for hedgegrow/watercourse fencing) then.

tractorporn

JohnChadwick wrote: »

Ya you would be OK to simultaneously get the Organic payment and the REAP Payment (for hedgegrow/watercourse fencing) then.

No organic farmers are excluded from joining REAP altogether. They are one of a list of existing schemes which cannot join REAP

blue5000

tractorporn wrote: »

No, organic farmers are excluded from joining REAP altogether. They are one of a list of existing schemes which cannot join REAP

Hopefully there's something better for organic farmers in the pipeline. EU has a target of 30% organic by 2030 AFAIK. This is well below target in Ireland anyway.

Dinzee Conlee

blue5000 wrote: »

Hopefully there's something better for organic farmers in the pipeline. EU has a target of 30% organic by 2030 AFAIK. This is well below target in Ireland anyway.

30% of what exactly Blue?