organic farming

minerleague

blue5000 wrote: »

Hopefully there's something better for organic farmers in the pipeline. EU has a target of 30% organic by 2030 AFAIK. This is well below target in Ireland anyway.

Should a farmer be organic because they believe in it and believe consumers will pay extra for their produce and no extra organic payment as such?. I know there are veg producers who do this currently

blue5000

That's a good question ml. I was thinking about that when icmsa were giving out about the poor uptake of the recent applicant opening. It shouldn't just be about the money IMHO. If it was easy everyone would be doing it.

That article above mentioned that making organic food more plentiful/popular would mean that corners would be cut to supply it. Just look what Dawg said about angus beef. I have had a meat factory agent suggesting that I should have registered all the calves as angus.....

minerleague

blue5000 wrote: »

That's a good question ml. I was thinking about that when icmsa were giving out about the poor uptake of the recent applicant opening. It shouldn't just be about the money IMHO. If it was easy everyone would be doing it.

That article above mentioned that making organic food more plentiful/popular would mean that corners would be cut to supply it. Just look what Dawg said about angus beef. I have had a meat factory agent suggesting that I should have registered all the calves as angus.....

Someone else mentioned this but if you get people joining organic purely as a way to increase income without believing in the principle, will they follow through all the time ( or will it need to be policed? ) It would only take 1 or 2 examples to emerge to tarnish everyone. Look at present you have terms like "farm fresh" etc which dont mean a whole lot

wrangler

minerleague wrote: »

Someone else mentioned this but if you get people joining organic purely as a way to increase income without believing in the principle, will they follow through all the time ( or will it need to be policed? ) It would only take 1 or 2 examples to emerge to tarnish everyone. Look at present you have terms like "farm fresh" etc which dont mean a whole lot

Very true, more than one organic farmer has told me that the way to treat nettles is to spray on a friday evening and mow on a monday morning

Gawddawggonnit

blue5000 wrote: »

That's a good question ml. I was thinking about that when icmsa were giving out about the poor uptake of the recent applicant opening. It shouldn't just be about the money IMHO. If it was easy everyone would be doing it.

That article above mentioned that making organic food more plentiful/popular would mean that corners would be cut to supply it. Just look what Dawg said about angus beef. I have had a meat factory agent suggesting that I should have registered all the calves as angus.....

There’s a big demand for organic produce in Europe. It’s being imported from as far as the Maghreb, so why not from Ireland?
To me it’s back to the old lazy marketing and produce large amounts of base commodities to flog onto the open market MO...
Saying that there’s no market for organic is the epitome of laziness.
Pulling a ‘fast one’ by labeling xbred calves as pure Angus is about as thick as you can get. For Irish Angus to break into that market again would be almost impossible now. Why not just do it right for once? It’s very easy to get a bad name, but to get a good name takes a very strict regime of producing the best in totally transparent farms, processing and distribution systems.
Organic in Ireland is always going to suffer push back from conventional because the conventional produce is being marketed as cleaner and
greener than everything...therefore the small organic sector is going to be crushed by conventional on all fronts.
IMO there needs to be a minister for organic, or at the very least a junior minister.

There’s droves farms here changing to organic...no grants or state aid, and the full weight of French bureaucracy on their back! I’ve yet to hear from anyone that changed back to conventional, or regretted their decision. I’d go organic myself but the investment needed is just too much at this stage of life.

wrangler

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

There’s a big demand for organic produce in Europe. It’s being imported from as far as the Maghreb, so why not from Ireland?
To me it’s back to the old lazy marketing and produce large amounts of base commodities to flog onto the open market MO...
Saying that there’s no market for organic is the epitome of laziness.
Pulling a ‘fast one’ by labeling xbred calves as pure Angus is about as thick as you can get. For Irish Angus to break into that market again would be almost impossible now. Why not just do it right for once? It’s very easy to get a bad name, but to get a good name takes a very strict regime of producing the best in totally transparent farms, processing and distribution systems.
Organic in Ireland is always going to suffer push back from conventional because the conventional produce is being marketed as cleaner and
greener than everything...therefore the small organic sector is going to be crushed by conventional on all fronts.
IMO there needs to be a minister for organic, or at the very least a junior minister.

There’s droves farms here changing to organic...no grants or state aid, and the full weight of French bureaucracy on their back! I’ve yet to hear from anyone that changed back to conventional, or regretted their decision. I’d go organic myself but the investment needed is just too much at this stage of life.

You can't blame big businesses for concentrating on large markets, it probaby costs the same to market multiple loads of conventional as one load of organic.
Like any niche market it's the producers responsibility to get the bonuses.

rounders

I think the fact that there is two organic organisations doesn't help. We're a small country and it's a small group of farmers. One organisation would have a stronger voice than two smaller organisations to ensure Organic's voice is heard

148multi

wrangler wrote: »

It's only in the last couple years that farmers have been able to get Organic Price for all their lambs, only one factory processing them in any numbers.
It's urrealistic to consider such an increase as it's vital to get the organic bonus to compensate for loss of production.
I don't know what the position is with Organic beef

And its only part of the lamb carcass that sold as organic

148multi

rounders wrote: »

I think the fact that there is two organic organisations doesn't help. We're a small country and it's a small group of farmers. One organisation would have a stronger voice than two smaller organisations to ensure Organic's voice is heard

Our leitrim farmers seem to be doing alright.

148multi

148multi wrote: »

And its only part of the lamb carcass that sold as organic

What part and what's the reason?

Base price

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

There’s a big demand for organic produce in Europe. It’s being imported from as far as the Maghreb, so why not from Ireland?
To me it’s back to the old lazy marketing and produce large amounts of base commodities to flog onto the open market MO...
Saying that there’s no market for organic is the epitome of laziness.
Pulling a ‘fast one’ by labeling xbred calves as pure Angus is about as thick as you can get. For Irish Angus to break into that market again would be almost impossible now. Why not just do it right for once? It’s very easy to get a bad name, but to get a good name takes a very strict regime of producing the best in totally transparent farms, processing and distribution systems.
Organic in Ireland is always going to suffer push back from conventional because the conventional produce is being marketed as cleaner and
greener than everything...therefore the small organic sector is going to be crushed by conventional on all fronts.
IMO there needs to be a minister for organic, or at the very least a junior minister.

There’s droves farms here changing to organic...no grants or state aid, and the full weight of French bureaucracy on their back! I’ve yet to hear from anyone that changed back to conventional, or regretted their decision. I’d go organic myself but the investment needed is just too much at this stage of life.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/decision-expected-next-month-on-pgi-status-for-irish-grass-fed-beef/

Castlekeeper

Base price wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/decision-expected-next-month-on-pgi-status-for-irish-grass-fed-beef/

That greenwash will never get through, it would undermine too many genuine PGIs.

Siamsa Sessions

Castlekeeper wrote: »

That greenwash will never get through, it would undermine too many genuine PGIs.

I don’t know if it’ll get approved or not but almost by definition it’s not a genuine PGI.

Ireland produces commodities, with a few exceptions, and I don’t think another sticker on a label or an extra bullet point on a Bord Bia PowerPoint presentation will return much to the farmers who will have even more paperwork to complete for this latest scheme

Water John

It's no accident that the marketing slogan, Origin Green, sounds very like Organic. It possibly wouldn't stand up to legal challenge. It's purpose is to deliberately confuse the consumer. Some might even say, mislead.

Yeah the aim is 25% of farmed land to go organic. That would need to be gradual and build EU markets.
Would one of the smaller Irish milk processors link up with an EU processor who has difficulties getting adequate supply? They could build a plant here.
Even simply there is no organic cheddar produced here TMK.

Gawddawggonnit

wrangler wrote: »

You can't blame big businesses for concentrating on large markets, it probaby costs the same to market multiple loads of conventional as one load of organic.
Like any niche market it's the producers responsibility to get the bonuses.

Really??

Government want 25% of land area to be organic, then build the market and everything falls in line. No grants etc needed.

Don’t worry none of those lucrative grants etc to big businesses/conventional farmers need be affected.

Gawddawggonnit

Water John wrote: »

It's no accident that the marketing slogan, Origin Green, sounds very like Organic. It possibly wouldn't stand up to legal challenge. It's purpose is to deliberately confuse the consumer. Some might even say, mislead.

Yeah the aim is 25% of farmed land to go organic. That would need to be gradual and build EU markets.
Would one of the smaller Irish milk processors link up with an EU processor who has difficulties getting adequate supply? They could build a plant here.
Even simply there is no organic cheddar produced here TMK.

Build access to the market and supply will follow. There was €15k/year available here for the 3years of changeover and it got seriously over subscribed, markets grew, now there’s nothing...!

I sell conventional milk to a Coop that have just spent €80mil on a new soft cheese plant, an organic cheese plant!
No Gov grants etc. It did take 11yrs to get it through planning though. So, at least 11YRS ago they could see a market for this...in a lazy socialist country. Funny that.


To get things done one needs to get off ones derrière.

Water John

I see today, courtesy of IOFGA newsletter(thanks Grace), that Denmark leads the way with 13% of food purchased by consumers organic. When you're into a double digit market as the all the EU is moving towards, that's a serious opportunity. I see even one of the infant formula producers have an organic option now. That isn't sourced from Irish farms. Marketing an organic option in any baby foods should be an easy sell.

Siamsa Sessions

Water John wrote: »

I see today, courtesy of IOFGA newsletter(thanks Grace), that Denmark leads the way with 13% of food purchased by consumers organic. When you're into a double digit market as the all the EU is moving towards, that's a serious opportunity. I see even one of the infant formula producers have an organic option now. That isn't sourced from Irish farms. Marketing an organic option in any baby foods should be an easy sell.

It’s now or never surely for organic marketing. With the big push for environmental action in Europe, the public are likely to be more aware of organic and its chemical-free status

Water John

With the last 2 years I pick up a few organic items when shopping. Cheese, tomatoes and fairtrade organic bananas for example. Not much difference in price.

Gawddawggonnit

Water John wrote: »

I see today, courtesy of IOFGA newsletter(thanks Grace), that Denmark leads the way with 13% of food purchased by consumers organic. When you're into a double digit market as the all the EU is moving towards, that's a serious opportunity. I see even one of the infant formula producers have an organic option now. That isn't sourced from Irish farms. Marketing an organic option in any baby foods should be an easy sell.

The Coops have been investing in expanding conventional processing and have no mind for messing with ‘niche’ markets... they talk in millions of litres and thousands of tonnes.
It’ll take Government initiative to get the ball rolling, otherwise they’re only paying lip service to organic.

Say my name

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

The Coops have been investing in expanding conventional processing and have no mind for messing with ‘niche’ markets... they talk in millions of litres and thousands of tonnes.
It’ll take Government initiative to get the ball rolling, otherwise they’re only paying lip service to organic.

Took a drive Sunday from New Ross to Mullinavat to Ballyhale to Kells to Dunamaggin back to Kells and Kilkenny city.
A meal lorry driver told me before there's big dairy farms in Kilkenny. They weren't wrong.
I can see now why glanbia wanted the factory in belview just down the road.
You'd see it all. Sheds twenty spans long.
Stone walls and hundreds of calves in fields. Silage pits where you'd need a helicopter rescue. Savage land the best in the country. Not a multi species mix in sight nor why would they bother when the scale is there.
It'd be hard to change the mindset of those when you've the land working for you and that carries into the boardrooms.

Chisler2

Say my name wrote: »

Took a drive Sunday from New Ross to Mullinavat to Ballyhale to Kells to Dunamaggin back to Kells and Kilkenny city.
A meal lorry driver told me before there's big dairy farms in Kilkenny. They weren't wrong.
I can see now why glanbia wanted the factory in belview just down the road.
You'd see it all. Sheds twenty spans long.
Stone walls and hundreds of calves in fields. Silage pits where you'd need a helicopter rescue. Savage land the best in the country. Not a multi species mix in sight nor why would they bother when the scale is there.
It'd be hard to change the mindset of those when you've the land working for you and that carries into the boardrooms.

Until they degrade that land through that monoculture. Then the reckoning.

Siamsa Sessions

Say my name wrote: »

Took a drive Sunday from New Ross to Mullinavat to Ballyhale to Kells to Dunamaggin back to Kells and Kilkenny city.
A meal lorry driver told me before there's big dairy farms in Kilkenny. They weren't wrong.
I can see now why glanbia wanted the factory in belview just down the road.
You'd see it all. Sheds twenty spans long.
Stone walls and hundreds of calves in fields. Silage pits where you'd need a helicopter rescue. Savage land the best in the country. Not a multi species mix in sight nor why would they bother when the scale is there.
It'd be hard to change the mindset of those when you've the land working for you and that carries into the boardrooms.

I've a cousin who milks around 100 pedigree Holsteins and he's in a discussion group in that part of the country. He told me he sees the same thing there - investment up into the millions, and not just the odd farm. Anyone who owes the bank big money will fight hard to maintain the status quo, and they're exactly what the co-ops want: farmers bound tight to big production.

Siamsa Sessions

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

It’ll take Government initiative to get the ball rolling, otherwise they’re only paying lip service to organic.

Apologies for throwing out the same mantra again and again, but the Irish Government will do as little as possible to impact the success, as they see it, of conventional agri-food exports. It's hard cash coming into the country and supports massive employment.

Organic exports to the EU could be a huge opportunity for Irish farmers, in terms of better farm gate returns and lower environmental impact. New routes to that market are needed as you said above, but the Irish Government are happy to hawk 'Origin Green' as it seems organic - just without the premium - and keep the exports rolling out.

Some interesting reading here on the bigger agri-food export picture, including the "Contribution of the Agri-Food Sector to the National Economy". And for "agri-food sector", you can read "conventional agri-food sector"

https://www.teagasc.ie/rural-economy/rural-economy/agri-food-business/agriculture-in-ireland/

Say my name

Chisler2 wrote: »

Until they degrade that land through that monoculture. Then the reckoning.

No I'd say that land was improved back in the monks time of agricultural teaching.
People nowadays just are dealing the hand dealt to them.
You won't degrade it under perennial plants. Mono or otherwise.

Say my name

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I've a cousin who milks around 100 pedigree Holsteins and he's in a discussion group in that part of the country. He told me he sees the same thing there - investment up into the millions, and not just the odd farm. Anyone who owes the bank big money will fight hard to maintain the status quo, and they're exactly what the co-ops want: farmers bound tight to big production.

Going by the contractors machinery going there it's not only farmers. New redrock trailers and Wilson bale movers.
Ah I'd say a lot up there are legacy farms too.
Different world and a nice drive.

Say my name

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I've a cousin who milks around 100 pedigree Holsteins and he's in a discussion group in that part of the country. He told me he sees the same thing there - investment up into the millions, and not just the odd farm. Anyone who owes the bank big money will fight hard to maintain the status quo, and they're exactly what the co-ops want: farmers bound tight to big production.

You'd want to be careful who you believe too.
Lots of farms just work on surplus cash with low borrowings. If you've cash coming in you'll spend it.

Anyway looks like the anti dairy rhetoric has become government policy now.
Organic, sheep, beef, tillage covered under the upcoming tams scheme. Dairy farmers are excluded.
Sad to see that day come and become government policy. Incredible.
Dairy farmers are too busy on farm to have their voices heard anymore in this country.

There was a time when farmers in south Kilkenny doing tillage would bid for the rights to sweep the streets of Waterford city for cattle and horse sh1t.
That'll be the next pull on the dairy farmer now for their sh1t, except for free this time.

Say my name

Say my name wrote: »

You'd want to be careful who you believe too.
Lots of farms just work on surplus cash with low borrowings. If you've cash coming in you'll spend it.

Anyway looks like the anti dairy rhetoric has become government policy now.
Organic, sheep, beef, tillage covered under the upcoming tams scheme. Dairy farmers are excluded.
Sad to see that day come and become government policy. Incredible.
Dairy farmers are too busy on farm to have their voices heard anymore in this country.

There was a time when farmers in south Kilkenny doing tillage would bid for the rights to sweep the streets of Waterford city for cattle and horse sh1t.
That'll be the next pull on the dairy farmer now for their sh1t, except for free this time.

Will you be ditching them ould unviable piebalds in favour of a few herefords or blackface ewes any time soon?

Siamsa Sessions

Say my name wrote: »

That'll be the next pull on the dairy farmer now for their sh1t, except for free this time.

Isn't that what the co-ops were on about in the Journal a few months ago with talk of them taking in slurry/grass from farmers for anaerobic digesters?

Say my name

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Will you be ditching them ould unviable piebalds in favour of a few herefords or blackface ewes any time soon?

But sure you know what's happening.
It's market manipulation of the highest order.
It's only keeping the supply of cheap grain, cheap beef, cheap sheep to the multiples.
Who benefits? The farmer still cries poverty. The factories and mills still get the quantities in and praise the farmer and call for more subsidies.

Ah it's gone beyond ridiculous. My tillage neighbour with thousands of acres with the farm in multiples of company names gets bps dividied up to stay below the radar on the bps list. Gets grant aided on storage and machinery.
While his 60 cow dairy farmer across the road gets told sorry now you're excluded from the schemes.

May change my name to Godolphin and move to Kildare or something or buy a few blackface..