organic farming

Buford T. Justice XIX

endainoz wrote: »

Hadn't heard those figures, you could be right. From what I gather the Organic sales in Drumshambo does very well. And (according to Teagasc) the organic market is increasing a lot in recent years, particularly in export markets. I don't have exact figures though.

As for the 60% killed commercially? I wouldn't be inclined to believe it, a certain percentage not good enough would be killed conventionally for sure, but 60% sounds a bit unrealistic to me.

Any active organic people here have an opinion on this?

Three years ago, the figures were between a quarter and a third of organic beef and lamb were sold into conventional markets.

People can dress it up any way they like but the demand for organic meat is being successfully supplied, milk and tillage much less so.

endainoz

Buford T. Justice VI wrote:

Three years ago, the figures were between a quarter and a third of organic beef and lamb were sold into conventional markets.

Yes I remember your post from the start of this thread, a lot more believable than 60%.

Buford T. Justice VI wrote:

People can dress it up any way they like but the demand for organic meat is being successfully supplied, milk and tillage much less so.

That makes sense seen as priority was given to dairy and cereal farmers when they opened the scheme late past year.

I still think it would be worthwhile in the long run for me if I hopefully get in. The top up on the entitlements coupled with the lack of a fertilizer bill makes it worthwhile, along with a 60% grant for certain machinery and modifications to farm buildings etc. The cost of bedding and doing dung samples would be added in of course, but overall it would be better for me.

Water John

Was at Kilmallock Organic sale two weeks ago. 200 cattle, all sold.
Almost all store cattle. Steers; LMX 408kg €1,000, 363kg €865, 278kg €705
AAX 355kg €755, 255kg €555

I'd say there were some conventional buyers, as the stock are nice and probably healthier.

Gawddawggonnit

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Three years ago, the figures were between a quarter and a third of organic beef and lamb were sold into conventional markets.

People can dress it up any way they like but the demand for organic meat is being successfully supplied, milk and tillage much less so.

France alone imports €3-4bln worth of organic food every year...it reeks of lazy marketing that Irish organic beef is dumped into conventional markets.

Organic Cote du bœuf (charolais) aged for 42days is €44/kg in the local supermarket. Organic Cote du bœuf (Angus), aged for 40days is €79/kg.

Organic Irish milk would be tricky enough to market here because it needs to be processed into delicious cheeses etc.

Organic tillage won’t take off until there’s a demand from the organic livestock sector. Ireland’s climate doesn’t lend itself too well for producing organic food for humans...chickpeas, quinoa, maize (cornflakes), soya etc etc.

I’d go organic in a heartbeat but I’m too long in the tooth to take on such a huge investment without an enthusiastic lad/lass behind me.

Water John

Good Herdsman main market is Germany TMK. The Germans wouldn't have a record of being very discriminating foodies.
Our main problem again is probably year round production. Everyone can finish cattle with a little, dear ration, in the back end of the summer. the rest of the year is the problem.
This requires a change of attitude and farming practices.

Heavier weights in Kilmallock; SHX 615kg€1,180, BBX 640kg €1,200
SHX 580kg €1,150, SH 570kg€1,100, LMX 558kg €1,170

endainoz

Water John wrote:

Good Herdsman main market is Germany TMK. The Germans wouldn't have a record of being very discriminating foodies. Our main problem again is probably year round production. Everyone can finish cattle with a little, dear ration, in the back end of the summer. the rest of the year is the problem. This requires a change of attitude and farming practices.

Autumn calves would be a better option? I'm looking to get an Angus bull if I get into the scheme but not overly sure if there would be a decent market for weanlings, I haven't finished cattle before but if I started I'd be growing loads of red clover silage. The price of organic meal is crazy.

Mooooo

Water John wrote: »

Was at Kilmallock Organic sale two weeks ago. 200 cattle, all sold.
Almost all store cattle. Steers; LMX 408kg €1,000, 363kg €865, 278kg €705
AAX 355kg €755, 255kg €555

I'd say there were some conventional buyers, as the stock are nice and probably healthier.

Don't buy the probably healthier part tbh. If going organic you need to know your market, and who they are selling to. Red clover, less fert etc also means more reseeding and in some cases much lower stocking rates also.

endainoz

Mooooo wrote:

Don't buy the probably healthier part tbh. If going organic you need to know your market, and who they are selling to. Red clover, less fert etc also means more reseeding and in some cases much lower stocking rates also.

A well maintained red clover crop can last up to 7 years. Soil fertility is key for organic, animals are generally more healthy too as it preventative care rather than dosing. Lower stocking rates for sure but I'd argue with your other points.

Water John

I wouldn't bank on red clover more than 4 years, from what I've read. I intend to rotate that with a bit of tillage. Five paddocks moving forward one each year. Under or oversowing one with clover/grass. Two oats, three red clover. Any advice well appreciated.

BTW if any organic dairy farmer was interested in outsourcing dairy replacements, I'd probably prefer it to beef.

Panch18

Water John wrote: »

I wouldn't bank on red clover more than 4 years, from what I've read. I intend to rotate that with a bit of tillage. Five paddocks moving forward one each year. Under or oversowing one with clover/grass. Two oats, three red clover. Any advice well appreciated.

I'm not in organic so far from an expert, but i read a bit about it and from what i have seen you have a good rotation there

You could try combi crop in the rotation as well - great feed for your own cattle and easy to sell

Edit: just to say wouldn't you be better with the oats after the red clover?

Mooooo

7 years would be more often, and if used for silage i heard it was closer to every 5 years. Majority of farmers try and use as much preventative care as possible and with amr regs coming in most will have little choice, not to mention the cost of treatment these days. Prob spend close to 20 euro a cow on vaccines here.
Fert and sprays would be the biggest difference between organic and conventional in terms of feed for stock I would have thought. Weed management can be a larger issue unless on the driest of ground when it comes to grazing in the shoulders or inclement weather. Not knocking organic once there is a market for it but claims it's inherently healthier or better than conventional aren't always the case

Water John

Good point, but oats to Flahavan's would be my aim and have my own straw.
Not sure of the price this year but was €380/ton last year, 2 ton per acre.

Yeah ended up with whole crop this year as it was set too late. We're learning. Will look at winter oats. Might reseed after crop then.

endainoz

Water John wrote:

I wouldn't bank on red clover more than 4 years, from what I've read. I intend to rotate that with a bit of tillage. Five paddocks moving forward one each year. Under or oversowing one with clover/grass. Two oats, three red clover. Any advice well appreciated.

You could be right, as part of an organic course with Teagasc we did a farm visit to a dairy guy. Now it fairness this lad had a serious setup and had serious soil management work done but he showed us his red clover crop, in it's 7th year and was about two weeks short of his third cut of it in July. It can be done with the right soil and management. That being said, I'd say your rotation plan would be more realistic in fairness.

endainoz

Mooooo wrote:

7 years would be more often, and if used for silage i heard it was closer to every 5 years. Majority of farmers try and use as much preventative care as possible and with amr regs coming in most will have little choice, not to mention the cost of treatment these days. Prob spend close to 20 euro a cow on vaccines here. Fert and sprays would be the biggest difference between organic and conventional in terms of feed for stock I would have thought. Weed management can be a larger issue unless on the driest of ground when it comes to grazing in the shoulders or inclement weather. Not knocking organic once there is a market for it but claims it's inherently healthier or better than conventional aren't always the case

You make good points for sure, but if you can grow a crop that you have to resow every 5 or so years with up to 70% DMD instead of buying meal, it's still a hell of a lot cheaper.

Agreed on weed management too, topping of course is encouraged but yeah has to be on suitable ground.

Water John

The're are options, crimp as well is good feed, esp if you've a diet feeder and you have the straw.
A bit of tillage is great for lads who like, picking stones.

tractorporn

Panch18 wrote: »

Water John wrote: »

I wouldn't bank on red clover more than 4 years, from what I've read. I intend to rotate that with a bit of tillage. Five paddocks moving forward one each year. Under or oversowing one with clover/grass. Two oats, three red clover. Any advice well appreciated.

I'm not in organic so far from an expert, but i read a bit about it and from what i have seen you have a good rotation there

You could try combi crop in the rotation as well - great feed for your own cattle and easy to sell

Edit: just to say wouldn't you be better with the oats after the red clover?

That's what we do here 2 years red clover followed by 3 years oats hopefully, the theory is that the nitrogen from the clover will power on the following crops. I have only 4 years of the rotation done here so I'm toying with the idea of combi crop for the final year under sown back to the red clover and wrap the straw for feeding but I'm not sure if I'm brave enough for that.

Water John

From my reading, I was afraid of 3 years oats, from a disease POV.
Three years for each crop would make the rotation very simple. Just reseed oats the third year.
The reason I oversowed, that is, sat the clover when the oats was well up, instead of undersowing was to give the oats a chance, could be wrong.

Anyone have experience with winter oats?

yosemitesam1

Water John wrote: »

From my reading, I was afraid of 3 years oats, from a disease POV.
Three years for each crop would make the rotation very simple. Just reseed oats the third year.
The reason I oversowed, that is, sat the clover when the oats was well up, instead of undersowing was to give the oats a chance, could be wrong.

Anyone have experience with winter oats?

Don't be afraid to be creative. Lots of other options, you could go winter oats+ vetch, crimson clover cover crop etc

wrangler

Our lamb group facilitates organic lambs going to ICM and demand seems to very erratic, but we'd have farmers delivering up to 80 mls to our depot and then another 80 to the factory so if that's the only demand in the country it's not good. the bonus is 15% when the organic demand is there.

Gawddawggonnit

Water John wrote: »

Good point, but oats to Flahavan's would be my aim and have my own straw.
Not sure of the price this year but was €380/ton last year, 2 ton per acre.

Yeah ended up with whole crop this year as it was set too late. We're learning. Will look at winter oats. Might reseed after crop then.

I’ve a few friends that are organic cereal farmers, in fact I’m going harvesting sunflowers for one of them this afternoon. He’s getting brilliant results with planting Lucerne as a base crop. Plant the cereal crop directly into the lucerne, and after the harvest graze/mow the lucerne, then DD the cereal back into it again.
The lucerne aids weed suppression and won’t compete with the cereal crop.

His milling wheat yielded 4.7t/ha @ €480/t. Beats the crap out of conventional wheat.

Birdnuts

Spent today doing a course on hedgerow management at Tommy Earley's award winning organic farm near Arigna in North Roscommon. What a guy!! - Using rushes as bedding and for heating his whole set-up. His bog is currently the subject of a very promising Carbon sequestration and flood control project. Plus some of the finest in calf AA's I've ever seen. Its folk like him that should be designing GLAS schemes etc. - not clip board fools in DAFM etc.

endainoz

My application to the organic scheme has been 'pre approved' for RASS according to Agfood. Rang the organic department, they said I'd know for sure towards the end of the week. Trying to read between the lines, it sounds like pretty good news but she couldn't tell me for sure. Hopefully good news due soon!

endainoz

https://www.cap4nature.com/

Well worth a look, would be nice if these practical solutions were taken into account for future CAP negotiations.

blue5000

tractorporn wrote: »

That's what we do here 2 years red clover followed by 3 years oats hopefully, the theory is that the nitrogen from the clover will power on the following crops. I have only 4 years of the rotation done here so I'm toying with the idea of combi crop for the final year under sown back to the red clover and wrap the straw for feeding but I'm not sure if I'm brave enough for that.

AFAIK you need a 6 year break between red clover crops to avoid sclerotina
https://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisease/host-disease/clover-trifolium-spp-sclerotinia-crown-rot-wilt

tractorporn

blue5000 wrote: »

AFAIK you need a 6 year break between red clover crops to avoid sclerotina
https://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisease/host-disease/clover-trifolium-spp-sclerotinia-crown-rot-wilt

All I can say is that is hasn't been an issue here so far although we are not that deep into the rotation. Having spoken to a good few lads before making the jump none of them had an issue with it either. The guy from Kilbeggan oats has run a 2 year oat 2 year red clover rotation for the past 15 or so years with mo problems as of yet. Hopefully its something we can avoid here too.

endainoz

I'm very happy to say I got an acceptance letter for the organic scheme from the department yesterday. Everyone who applied will get their letters this week, we were told.

Water John

Letter of Refusal today. Cereals and Beef plan. So much for those saying, everybody will get it. I presume none of the sheep lads made it. A lot of them did the training course with me.
I will stay organic anyway.

yosemitesam1

Is it possible to go organic without being accepted just not get the organic payments?

Water John

Yes. If you get Dept approval later, you just don't get the transition payment for 2 years but go straight to member payment €170/ha.

May open in 2021/22 and would expect anyone in my position to get in.

tractorporn

Water John wrote: »

Letter of Refusal today. Cereals and Beef plan. So much for those saying, everybody will get it. I presume none of the sheep lads made it. A lot of them did the training course with me.
I will stay organic anyway.

A lot of people haven't been excepted, a good few tillage and dairy guys didn't get in. It seems that they took size into account for the points so if you were anyway small scale or had rented land (which counted for half the marks) you were screwed. I'm surprised that endainoz got in, you must have a big track of land if you've no tillage or dairy?