organic farming

endainoz

What sort of money should shx bull weanlings be making? Not weighed yet but around 275 kgs a couple might be bigger than that. I know they aren't as sought after as continentals but was trying to guess a rough figure for them.

WoozieWu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579541#Comment_122579541

Why is organic raised beef better than conventional

blue5000

No GM feed in their diet.

Silverdream

Or other Chemicals such as Ivermectins, and a much lower chance of getting residual antibiotics in the meat.

StevenToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122585300#Comment_122585300

In General, organic beef animals experience a less intensive upbringing….

Fed organic feed, not exposed to as much medications etc....

More time outside and on straw beds etc...

Im not sure if there is much difference in terms of taste between organic vs conventional beef.....as Irish grass fed beef is as good as it gets anyway...the organic element is the cherry on top I suppose...

Water John

All the factors mentioned above are quite important. Probably also the regenerative practices that often go along with organic that influence meat and food quality and nutrient density. The diversity in the grazing sward, linked to a wide diversity in the soil, gives meat and food higher nutrient density (Dan Kettridge, Bionutrient Soil Association). That grazing sward also raises the omega 3:6 ratio.

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122586203#Comment_122586203

Been to a good few open days on organic and read a good bit and it seems to me that most farmers in organic are dosing as much now as they did prior to joining. Organic sheep farmer in journal a few weeks ago outlined what he doses for and I didn't see much difference to most conventional. Any antibiotic needed can be used also. I still don't think people buying organic product fully realize this

I know about concerns on GM products but is there any difference in the actual grains as fed ( as opposed to the actual plant)?

Diarmuid B

Don’t think that’s fully correct on any antibiotic can be used- the two abbatoirs that process organic cattle have a list of drugs that they won’t accept animals if they have been given them.
also if an animal is treated more than once with antibiotics in a year, they lose their organic status then

Water John

Don't have sheep, but multi species swards grazing should reduce by 50% the dosing of lambs, (as per Lyons farm UCD). Diatomaceous Earth both internally and externally can contribute to killing parasites and viruses. I haven't tried using it externally on cattle but I think it might help to control lice.

Rusheseverywhere

Having finished and sold cattle as weanlings in Organics for years IMO 9 times out of 10 better off selling in an ordinary mart. More buyers, for bulls if you have quality calves better off not squezzing and getting more off the shippers. With finishing the flat price is a killer. No AA, QA, Heifer or grading bonuses so waste of time add in the new thing that only 1 dose once per 12 months for fluke worms etc. that is nearly impossible on wet land. If you dose them 2 lose organic status but just kill them in ordinary factory. Also travel distances to the factories and the fact main mart is once a month in Leitrim long way to go and a long time to wait if you miss it.

Cran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588395#Comment_122588395

probably didn’t dose much before going organic compared to others?

Water John

The castration is an issue. The only way for it to work is that, to remain organic on cannot keep whole male commercial stock over six months of age.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122585910#Comment_122585910

Yet the majority of fruit and veg that we eat nowdays has been genetically modified over the years. I remember seeing a programme on TV how tomatoes were genetically modified in the early 80's. From memory they added beetroot genes to elongate the shelf life of tomatoes.

Unless you are prepared to grow what is now classed as "heritage" breeds of fruit & veg then you're probably eating GM modified food.

Water John

The more I study the whole area, the more towards regenerative agriculture I'm trending. Organic is a defined category with specific rules and inspection. This makes it an easy, yes/no answer. Regen, at present, hasn't those objective measurements but has a greater contribution to make in terms of soil, animals and crops, and human health.

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591833#Comment_122591833

I think conventional farming will have to adopt more of these methods given the spiralling issues with wormer, herbicide resistance, climate disruption, soil degradation, dementia and learning issues with young and old etc.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/sheep/breeding-and-health/three-steps-to-help-keep-wormers-working-711330

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/23/long-shadow-life-under-the-veiled-grasp-of-factory-farming-in-europe

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/sep/05/loss-of-bats-to-lethal-fungus-linked-to-1300-child-deaths-in-us-study-says-aoe

Silverdream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588395#Comment_122588395

Antibiotics can only be used with a prescription. The withdrawal period for antibiotics in Organics is at least twice as long as conventional. Not true about dosing as much as conventional, any dosing program must be under a veterinary plan with just cause along with other measures such as rotational grazing. Very hard to get a justification for using the likes of Ivermectin

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593517#Comment_122593517

My view is that Organic should be all the way organic over the entire farm ( and live with the consequences on that decision)

Organic farmers can buy conventional straw ( is that still sprayed with round-up prior to harvest? ) for bedding ( but not eating other than cattle nibbling on fresh bedding it seems )

A good few organic farms had heaps of bio-solids sludge from dairy co-op processing facilities ( strong smelling stuff !) and can import slurry from conventional farms too.

Having said all that I'll probably be joining myself having read what's coming in new CAP, seem be moving away from area based payments ( these suit me even at a low level as I have good sized farm very lightly stocked. Losing 1.5k a year already this CAP because of CRISS frontloading)

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594002#Comment_122594002

You're correct about the straw, but the scheme wouldn't work at all if bedding had to be organic, simply isn't enough available. The same goes for buying a conventional bull, through he'll have to be farmed organically on the farm.

Even with all the composting of the straw, there probably is a small trace of some but of roundup in it when it goes out. I sort of proved it a couple of years ago, was growing some potatoes in the poly tunnel during the autumn, I put some composted straw on top as a bit of feed and some protection from cold, all of the potato plants slowly died after that. My theory is that it was the tiny traces of roundup that came from the straw.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594002#Comment_122594002

Does the new cap seem to be a move towards nothing but environmental schemes.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594261#Comment_122594261

Likely will be watered down like the last cap was.

manno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594179#Comment_122594179

You may be right but would it not be expected that the potato plant would die off coming into the winter anyway. What about the spuds themselves? Did they rot or were they ok?

manno

I have been grazing my sheep on multi-species for a good few years. I wouldn't say I see any difference. Most years I don't dose for worms much, but then some years like this years I have to as a lot of the lambs had worms. Overall, I see no difference compared to grazing all PRG.

On Multi-species, its great stuff year 1 & 2 but then the chicory and plantain die out and the clover reduces. I rotate around the farm re-seeding each field with multi-species as often as I can manage. When you consider the cost of reseeding, clover safe sprays etc, I have concluded that it made financial sense when fertiliser was 1000/T but it doesn't really any more. I'll persist with it for now as it's nice to be able to spread less nitrogen but it's no silver bullet.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594476#Comment_122594476

Yup all rotted, it was a species that suited autumn planting (in a poly tunnel) , no idea what the variety was.

Water John

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594497#Comment_122594497

MSS probably is more suited to rotation with tillage. Grazing higher and leaving before it's bare should considerable help lower fluke burden.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594698#Comment_122594698

I know shag all about sheep myself, but from what I gather, they generally like to graze quite low to the ground which wouldn't be great for the swards to persist.

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594179#Comment_122594179

I don't think it was roundup that affected your potatoes, it's a different spray used on the grain crop, I'll find out what it is. It could be a spray for blackgrass or maybe a strob. Whatever it is it's very persistent. Has roundup pre-harvest been banned now?

Persistent Herbicides - US Composting Council

How to Identify and Treat Herbicide Contamination of Commercial Soil, Compost and Manure – Deep Green Permaculture

''newer synthetic auxin herbicides typically belong to the 

pyridine‐carboxylate

, 

pyridyloxy‐carboxylate

 and 

pyrimidine‐carboxylate

 chemical sub-classes.''