Iona vs Panti

Ash.J.Williams

Neil Francis came across as such a buffoon i doubt anyone could take him or his comments seriously. Nigel Owens certainly made him earn his forgiveness!

PopePalpatine

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But by including 'probably' he has given ammunition to the 'ohhh the PC Brigade made him apologise, they are shutting down free speech again' numpties.

Five Zimbabwean dollars says the Ionanists will be among them.

Zubeneschamali

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But by including 'probably' he has given ammunition to the 'ohhh the PC Brigade made him apologise, they are shutting down free speech again' numpties.

It's not a great apology, but it is a real apology. He says:

On reflection, I would like to withdraw those comments and apologise profusely and unreservedly.

He didn't add any "If anyone was offended, I'm sorry" bollocks that you see in the usual non-apologetic apology.

Of course, we all know that he did mean it, and it is what he thinks, but at least we have come to the point where he has to apologize for saying it out loud.

Bannasidhe

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It's not a great apology, but it is a real apology. He says:

On reflection, I would like to withdraw those comments and apologise profusely and unreservedly.

He didn't add any "If anyone was offended, I'm sorry" bollocks that you see in the usual non-apologetic apology.

Of course, we all know that he did mean it, and it is what he thinks, but at least we have come to the point where he has to apologize for saying it out loud.

I am very cranky today so my tolerance for 'probably' is zero.

Annasopra

Interesting

http://www.michaelnugent.com/2014/02/17/the-iona-institute-exists-solely-to-advance-and-promote-the-christian-religion/

Bannasidhe

Doctor DooM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I've actually had the discussion with a friend that whenever something really dudebro-ey happens we should say "no hetero".

Penn

Fintan O'Toole's article today must have really struck a nerve with David Quinn

http://www.ionainstitute.ie/index.php?id=3415#.UwNvS8iGkHA.twitter

Delirium

Penn wrote: »

Fintan O'Toole's article today must have really struck a nerve with David Quinn

http://www.ionainstitute.ie/index.php?id=3415#.UwNvS8iGkHA.twitter

Pretty sure Fintan replied via twitter about the rate being at 7% in 70s by stating that the 50s was close to what the rates are now. So the 70s would be higher than normal marriage rates.

Bannasidhe

SW wrote: »

Pretty sure Fintan replied via twitter about the rate being at 7% in 70s by stating that the 50s was close to what the rates are now. So the 70s would be higher than normal marriage rates.

Ah the 70s - wonder if the marriage rates were impacted in any way by the 'choices' facing unmarried pregnant women - laundry/boat/shotgun wedding...

Hotblack Desiato

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Things nobody says to heterosexuals

"One night with me and you won't be straight anymore"

That's probably been used, actually

Bannasidhe

ninja900 wrote: »

"One night with me and you won't be straight anymore"

That's probably been used, actually

They have ALL been used.

The list did leave out 'which one is the man/woman?'

Lou.m

Penn wrote: »

Fintan O'Toole's article today must have really struck a nerve with David Quinn

http://www.ionainstitute.ie/index.php?id=3415#.UwNvS8iGkHA.twitter

Biggest threat to marriage is ...divorce...

Well that and shacking up.

Nodin

ninja900 wrote: »

"One night with me and you won't be straight anymore"

That's probably been used, actually

......or been a result, perhaps quite unintended.

Cabaal

http://www.thejournal.ie/david-norris-seanad-1322642-Feb2014/

Norris on the warpath again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbT5jh8GbjM

Can spot a good few people trying their best not to smile or laugh during it as he comments on Iona

Bannasidhe

Cabaal wrote: »

Can spot a good few people trying their best not to smile or laugh during it as he comments on Iona

They failed....:D


Good to see David Norris with fire in his belly again!

FouxDaFaFa

Anyone know who he was referring to with the "fashion accessory" comment?

Bannasidhe

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Anyone know who he was referring to with the "fashion accessory" comment?

A certain independent senator who sits near him with initials RM would be my guess.

Links234

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Good to see David Norris with fire in his belly again!

He's a man with piss and vinegar in his blood and it's glorious to see

Tombo2001

In his radio interview with Miriam O'Callaghan two weeks ago, Panti made a point, which I would strongly agree with, that the opponents of Gay Marriage (who are typically part of the Catholic religious right) are given a media voice that far outweighs their reprentativeness of society as a whole.

And so it is that today in the Irish Times we have Ronan Mullen writing on this subject, a fourth opinion columnist from this grouping to be published in the opinion pages of the Times, alongside Breda O'Brien, David Quinn and John Waters. Whether he becomes a permanent fixture I dont know, but nonetheless The Irish Times is publicizing his opinions on the subject of gay marriage.

Quickly he gets into the definitions of Homophobia.....

He quotes the Oxford Dictionary as definining Homophobia as:

“an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people, hatred and discrimination”.

He then goes on to say:

"Homophobe is a term which describes a person as having an irrational hatred of gay people."

But when I look up the Oxford Dictionary definition on-line, I see a different definition for Homophobia (and the derivative Noun Homophobe):

"an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people."

There is no mention of the words hatred and discrimination, that he includes in his reference quote.

Similarly, the Merriam Webster (online) dictionary defines it as ": irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals" while the Collins Dictionary describes it as "feeling, or inspired by a strong and unreasonable dislike of homosexual people"

... no mention of the word hatred.

Accepted these are the on-line dictionaries, not the books.....
but by these definitions at least, it seems perfectly possible to be homophobic without having a hatred for gay people. And in my common usage understanding of the term, I would associate it more with a condescending attitude towards gay people, or discrimination, or a dislike.

Sarky

Jesus, they're giving Mullen a platform? He disgusts me more than the other lot combined.

lazygal

Sarky wrote: »

Jesus, they're giving Mullen a platform? He disgusts me more than the other lot combined.

I'm repeating myself but we should never forget he's the man who told brave couples who terminated for reasons of fatal foetal abnormalities that they had a wider agenda. He's. devoid of empathy.

Pherekydes

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Quickly he gets into the definitions of Homophobia.....

He quotes the Oxford Dictionary as definining Homophobia as:

“an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people, hatred and discrimination”.

I have a hard copy of the OED and Homophobia is defined as a "hatred or fear of homosexuals"

The key word is "or".

The Christian right has a morbid fear of homosexuals and homosexuality. It's very clear that they are homophobes to a man. (Sorry, ladies, the Christian right doesn't count your opinions as valid).

lazygal wrote: »

I'm repeating myself but we should never forget he's the man who told brave couples who terminated for reasons of fatal foetal abnormalities that they had a wider agenda. He's. devoid of empathy.

Of course! He's a Christian!

Tombo2001

Pherekydes wrote: »

I have a hard copy of the OED and Homophobia is defined as a "hatred or fear of homosexuals"

The key word is "or".

The Christian right has a morbid fear of homosexuals and homosexuality. It's very clear that they are homophobes to a man. (Sorry, ladies, the Christian right doesn't count your opinions as valid).



Of course! He's a Christian!

"Homophobe is a term which describes a person as having an irrational hatred of gay people."

So by your OED definition, his is statement above correct or incorrect.....

It seems to me that the argument being put forward is one of ...unless you can show that I hate homosexuals, then you are defaming me by calling me a homophobe.

Pherekydes

Tombo2001 wrote: »

"Homophobe is a term which describes a person as having an irrational hatred of gay people."

So by your OED definition, his is statement above correct or incorrect.....

It seems to me that the argument being put forward is one of ...unless you can show that I hate homosexuals, then you are defaming me by calling me a homophobe.

Hatred or fear. Hence:

"Homophobe is a term which describes a person as having an irrational hatred of gay people."

OR

"Homophobe is a term which describes a person as having an irrational fear of gay people."

Sarky

I'm spheksophobic. I don't *hate* wasps. But I am bloody terrified of them and won't have anything to do with them. And I won't sue anyone for calling me a spheksophobe.

Mullen can f*ck off with his attempts to weasel out of being accurately labelled.

PopePalpatine

Perhaps Mullen thinks his hatred is "rational"?

The Black Oil

iirc, O' Brien, Quinn and Waters have all written pieces bemoaning online commentary and social media. The latter two have certainly used the phrase 'shutting down debate', variations of oppression, or whatever.

And we're the ones accused of groupthink?

Brian Shanahan

Sarky wrote: »

Jesus, they're giving Mullen a platform? He disgusts me more than the other lot combined.

The media in Ireland are so far to the right that they are nearly bumping up against Mussolini at the moment.

AngryHippie

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

The media in Ireland are so far to the right that they are nearly bumping up against Mussolini at the moment.

I think the media are consciously giving the Anti SSM brigade as much air time as possible, as the more they talk, the higher their gallows gets.

The big risk here is that the anonymous referendum result will show up exactly how many people have managed to give their argument credence, and fear some sort of calamitous outcome from allowing SSM. (This is completely irrational and there is no evidence to back it up)

It is easily countered by the LGBT community staying calm, being supportive of each other, and holding their ranks. SSM will have it's victory, you will be granted your civil rights, and will make the country a better place. Don't sink to the Iona "institute's" level of tinfoil hats and screeching about how oppressed they are. They have brought every consequence to date upon themselves, by preaching against a decision that does not affect them in any way. Just keep calm, keep making points built on a sensible foundation and wait until the public judges them.

They will get the message that their bigoted views are no longer shared by any kind of majority, and they will be ridiculed to the point that they can be openly derided on their soap-boxes the next time they cry wolf. That will be the end of their limelight in the Irish Media, And the country will be a better place for it. They have nailed their colors to the mast of a sinking ship.

It's a shame that intelligent people can publicly behave as they have and expect to be taken seriously, they are destroying their own reputations and careers, but this is their journey.:rolleyes:

aloyisious

Ronán Mullen think's that gay people (of all people) should recognize that use of the word homophobe is hurtful and defamatory. That quote is near the end of this piece: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/a-lucid-debate-is-vital-ahead-of-referendum-on-marriage-1.1696326

He just fail's to mention the fact that homophobes do exist, that not all people labelled as homophobes or homophobic are actually defamed, that homophobes do exist.

Delirium

aloyisious wrote: »

Ronán Mullen think's that gay people (of all people) should recognize that use of the word homophobe is hurtful and defamatory. That quote is near the end of this piece: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/a-lucid-debate-is-vital-ahead-of-referendum-on-marriage-1.1696326

He just fail's to mention the fact that homophobes do exist, that not all people labelled as homophobes or homophobic are actually defamed, that homophobes do exist.

and suggesting that same-sex couples shouldn't be allowed marry/adopt isn't?

His whinging might have some merit if he applied his own standards to himself, Waters and Iona.

Akrasia

aloyisious wrote: »

Ronán Mullen think's that gay people (of all people) should recognize that use of the word homophobe is hurtful and defamatory. That quote is near the end of this piece: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/a-lucid-debate-is-vital-ahead-of-referendum-on-marriage-1.1696326

He just fail's to mention the fact that homophobes do exist, that not all people labelled as homophobes or homophobic are actually defamed, that homophobes do exist.

Ronan Mullen needs to watch southpark, meybe he'll realise that he's a parody of himself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_Apologies_to_Jesse_Jackson

PopePalpatine

aloyisious wrote: »

Ronán Mullen think's that gay people (of all people) should recognize that use of the word homophobe is hurtful and defamatory. That quote is near the end of this piece: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/a-lucid-debate-is-vital-ahead-of-referendum-on-marriage-1.1696326

He just fail's to mention the fact that homophobes do exist, that not all people labelled as homophobes or homophobic are actually defamed, that homophobes do exist.

Next week, Nick Griffin complains that the word "racist" is hurtful and defamatory. Ronan Mullen would be one of the first to shout "QUEER!" at gay people if he knew no-one was noticing.

Cabaal

http://www.thejournal.ie/graham-norton-pantigate-1324370-Feb2014/

RTÉ payout after Panti interview was ‘moronic’, says Graham Norton
The BBC presenter was critical of the “tiny minority” of highly vocal opponents to same-sex marriage.

Tombo2001

AngryHippie wrote: »

I think the media are consciously giving the Anti SSM brigade as much air time as possible, as the more they talk, the higher their gallows gets.

The big risk here is that the anonymous referendum result will show up exactly how many people have managed to give their argument credence, and fear some sort of calamitous outcome from allowing SSM. (This is completely irrational and there is no evidence to back it up)

It is easily countered by the LGBT community staying calm, being supportive of each other, and holding their ranks. SSM will have it's victory, you will be granted your civil rights, and will make the country a better place. Don't sink to the Iona "institute's" level of tinfoil hats and screeching about how oppressed they are. They have brought every consequence to date upon themselves, by preaching against a decision that does not affect them in any way. Just keep calm, keep making points built on a sensible foundation and wait until the public judges them.

They will get the message that their bigoted views are no longer shared by any kind of majority, and they will be ridiculed to the point that they can be openly derided on their soap-boxes the next time they cry wolf. That will be the end of their limelight in the Irish Media, And the country will be a better place for it. They have nailed their colors to the mast of a sinking ship.

It's a shame that intelligent people can publicly behave as they have and expect to be taken seriously, they are destroying their own reputations and careers, but this is their journey.:rolleyes:

I dont think thats true in the case of The Irish Times.

I think whats more likely is that the Irish Times is so self concious about being perceived as lefty and liberal that it gives absolutely heaps of print space to right wing conservatives to show that it is not just a lefty liberal paper.

The pity being that I really dont see much lefty liberal stuff being printed in it. It has become an unbalanced, right wing leaning paper, even though it it would never think of itself as such. But if the Irish Times is publishing Ronan Mullen or Breda O'Brien or whoever, then they are Irish Times articles at the end of the day; they choose to print the stuff. They seem to think ..."well its an opinion columnist, its not our view".....but the opinions of the newspaper are whats written in print, not what the editor might say if you meet him for a coffee.

lazygal

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/%E2%80%98my-good-name-has-been-demolished%E2%80%99

Breda has another whinge about how she's the real victim.

oceanclub

Graham Norton pays - ahem - tribute to Iona Institute:

www.hotpress.com/news/Graham-Nortons-verdict-on-RTE-Panti-and-homophobia/10994364.html

"I'm actually glad that ... the Iona Institute exist," he tells Hot Press. "The great thing about extremists is that they drag everyone towards the centre."

P.

Delirium

lazygal wrote: »

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/%E2%80%98my-good-name-has-been-demolished%E2%80%99

Breda has another whinge about how she's the real victim.

Yep. Hurt feelings of Breda are more important than addressing discrimination against a section of society. :rolleyes:

iwantmydinner

lazygal wrote: »

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/%E2%80%98my-good-name-has-been-demolished%E2%80%99

Breda has another whinge about how she's the real victim.

How can she in all seriousness complain about 'the debate' as they like to call it, being shut down, when she has access to SO MUCH media space?!

SO MUCH.

Not to mind the fact that she apparently hasn't heard that the kid thing is being dealt with entirely separately in new legislation.

Zubeneschamali

lazygal wrote: »

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/%E2%80%98my-good-name-has-been-demolished%E2%80%99

From that article:

There are cases where the only fair option for children is to formalise guardianship rights for same sex couples - Breda O'Brien, Patron of the Iona Institute

I'd just like to highlight that, so that when the Iona Institute start ranting about legalising adoption by same-sex couples this summer, I'll have the quote handy.

Obliq

lazygal wrote: »

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/%E2%80%98my-good-name-has-been-demolished%E2%80%99

Breda has another whinge about how she's the real victim.

"He was invited on to the stage of the Abbey Theatre to speak about how difficult it is to be gay. "

No, b*tch-face. He was speaking about the difficulties of experiencing homophobia.

Grrrr, blood boiling at entire article.

Penn

‘My good name has been demolished’

She had a good name?

Delirium

Obliq wrote: »

"He was invited on to the stage of the Abbey Theatre to speak about how difficult it is to be gay. "

No, b*tch-face. He was speaking about the difficulties of experiencing homophobia.

Grrrr, blood boiling at entire article.

Well duh, the problem is that homosexuals exist in society not that there are homophobic people abusing them.:rolleyes:

Tombo2001

oceanclub wrote: »

"I'm actually glad that ... the Iona Institute exist," he tells Hot Press. "The great thing about extremists is that they drag everyone towards the centre."

P.

He is spot on. As long as the likes of Iona are more intent on scoring cheap points than genuinely promoting their views in an appealing way, then its better to stand back and let them dig their own hole.

lazygal

iwantmydinner wrote: »

How can she in all seriousness complain about 'the debate' as they like to call it, being shut down, when she has access to SO MUCH media space?!

SO MUCH.

Not to mind the fact that she apparently hasn't heard that the kid thing is being dealt with entirely separately in new legislation.

I don't know when she finds the time to teach impressionable teenage girls with her busy commenting schedule.

Mr_A

So are babies only 'commissioned' outside of traditional marriage? Or is that just another use of language designed to demonise those outside of the chosen path of the righteous?

iwantmydinner

Mr_A wrote: »

So are babies only 'commissioned' outside of traditional marriage? Or is that just another use of language designed to demonise those outside of the chosen path of the righteous?

dehumanisation.com

lazygal

Mr_A wrote: »

So are babies only 'commissioned' outside of traditional marriage? Or is that just another use of language designed to demonise those outside of the chosen path of the righteous?

She's incredibly judgmental. All the couples I know who did ivf or were brave enough to say they went that route are married and had exhausted every possible "natural" option. No one wakes up and decides to undergo invasive treatments like ivf on a whim. Breda has been lucky enough to have children. You'd think she'd have empathy for those facing life unable to conceive, but given her compadre Mullen and his comments to couples with fatal foetal abnormalities it shouldn't surprise me she's a compassion free zone.

MrPudding

lazygal wrote: »

She's incredibly judgmental. All the couples I know who did ivf or were brave enough to say they went that route are married and had exhausted every possible "natural" option. No one wakes up and decides to undergo invasive treatments like ivf on a whim. Breda has been lucky enough to have children. You'd think she'd have empathy for those facing life unable to conceive, but given her compadre Mullen and his comments to couples with fatal foetal abnormalities it shouldn't surprise me she's a compassion free zone.

This is a odd thing, to me at least, but I find that very religious people can be incredibly lacking in empathy. You need only go to the other forum to see evidence of this. There are quite a few posters there who claim, and appear, to be very religious, but really come across a being most unpleasant, people that I would really not want to spend any time with in real life. Really quite nasty in some cases. I guess breda is merely an other example of this.

Perhaps it is due to the arrogance than often comes from following the "right" religion.

MrP