CM Punk Megathread

gnfnrhead

thebostoncrab wrote: »

Yeah I'm not going to lie, if I had Punks body as it is I'd be very happy with myself. I can't see anything in those photos that screams "out of shape" to me. If that's out of shape then I dread what my fat ass is

Out of shape for a wrestler is different than out of shape for a normal person. A few pounds make a lot of difference for a wrestler. He is still a WWE employee right now, meaning he is a wrestler and he doesn't look to be in ring shape, therefor he is out of shape. As a regular person, he wouldn't be. But as a wrestler, he is.

Palo Alto

This is daft, his cardio and workrate have always been much higher than an average wrestler, just because he has lost definition doesn't mean he couldn't go in the ring, if anything, the fact he's not as banged up means he could probably wrestle better than his last few months.

Secondly, he's not a WWE employee, he's an independent contractor who has fulfilled the terms of that contract in terms of required appearances. He can do what he wants.

mrkiscool2

Palo Alto wrote: »

This is daft, his cardio and workrate have always been much higher than an average wrestler, just because he has lost definition doesn't mean he couldn't go in the ring, if anything, the fact he's not as banged up means he could probably wrestle better than his last few months.

Secondly, he's not a WWE employee, he's an independent contractor who has fulfilled the terms of that contract in terms of required appearances. He can do what he wants.

Erm no he's not. He's still under contract by WWE and by contractual law they can renew his contract for all the days he has missed without permission (AKA since after the Royal Rumble) and then release him with a day left on the contract and have a 90-Day no appearance clause (in all WWE contracts.) So that's 6 months plus 90 days (AKA three months) which will put him out until around March next year. If you are going to make a claim at least have the facts to back it up.

Also, gnfnrhead was correct in his assessment. We've seen it from the likes of Rock and Batista (Lesnar being an exception because he is a fcuking freak) that being out of the ring for an extended amount of time does affect how good and fit you are inside it. You have to train like an absolute demon to be anything near in-ring shape. Punk is not.

savemejebus

I think Palo Alto is correct. WWE hires talent using the term Independent Contractor in order to avoid expenses and trouble related to workers rights. So while Punk is contracted to WWE for a specific time period, which may as you point out be extended due to time off over injury etc., his contract will likely probably say that he is only required to fulfil x number of dates during this time period. Once he has completed all those days then he is theoretically still under contract but doesn't actually have any responsibilities and outside of working elsewhere can do as he wishes.

I think they went over this in a podcast (JRs or Steve Austins or maybe Jericho's) soon after he walked. Now, whether he fulfilled all those dates etc. only Punk and WWE know. Looking at how little downtime/holidays he took it's possible but seeing as they are still paying him royalties etc. it suggests he either hasn't breached his contract like the situation above or Vince is trying to not to burn the bridge too badly in the hopes he may return to make money for them.

Moneymaker

Vince and Punk were always on decent terms and Vince knows if he ever came back it'd be a big moneymaker for him(sorry :pac: ) so he's smart to just leave Punk alone and not make a big deal about it.

mrkiscool2

savemejebus wrote: »

I think Palo Alto is correct. WWE hires talent using the term Independent Contractor in order to avoid expenses and trouble related to workers rights. So while Punk is contracted to WWE for a specific time period, which may as you point out be extended due to time off over injury etc., his contract will likely probably say that he is only required to fulfil x number of dates during this time period. Once he has completed all those days then he is theoretically still under contract but doesn't actually have any responsibilities and outside of working elsewhere can do as he wishes.

I think they went over this in a podcast (JRs or Steve Austins or maybe Jericho's) soon after he walked. Now, whether he fulfilled all those dates etc. only Punk and WWE know. Looking at how little downtime/holidays he took it's possible but seeing as they are still paying him royalties etc. it suggests he either hasn't breached his contract like the situation above or Vince is trying to not to burn the bridge too badly in the hopes he may return to make money for them.

Yes, but do really think Vince wouldn't have done the calculations in his head of exactly how many dates a year someone like CM Punk would be wrestling? If you think he hasn't you are severely underestimating the man. Let's take Lesnar's contract for example. While he has to appear on 4 PPVs per year, he also has to make 36 other dates (be that AXXESS, Raw etc). He made exactly 40 appearances between WM 29 and WM 30. There is no way that Punk has met every single requirement on the contract, not if Vince was the one signing it.

And Vince is definitely trying not to burn bridges but he is also not going to risk one of the biggest commodities in wrestling go to any other promotion until he absolutely have to. Again, we will know more next month when the contract is set to expire but I can almost guarantee Punk has not met said contractual agreements. Again, appearances are on a year by year basis starting from when the contract is first signed (so middle of July for Punk) until the day before the contract was signed in the calendar year. Missing a whole 6 months will guarantee he has NOT met his contractual agreements for the year.

savemejebus

I don't know whether he's met all his requirements and I said as much. I was primarily referring to the whole Independent Contractor thing. However, it is important to bear in mind the position Punk was in when he signed his last contract. He was the hottest thing in the industry and pretty much got a very very beneficial contract to keep him there, and with the 360+ day reign as champion Punk will have had to go above and beyond his normal requirements for media appearances etc. so it is very conceivable that he had his dates fulfilled, as I said, no one except for Punk and WWE (and probably AJ) know.

Also, I don't think Vince is concerned about Punk going anywhere else, if i remember correctly Punk hates TNA and Vince doesn't rate ROH.

gnfnrhead

savemejebus wrote: »

Also, I don't think Vince is concerned about Punk going anywhere else, if i remember correctly Punk hates TNA and Vince doesn't rate ROH.

Eric Bischoff hated WWE/Vince and look what happened there. Give someone enough money and they could change their mind.

As for Vince doesn't rate ROH, he has signed or given a trial to pretty much everyone who has done well in recent years. Rollins, Zayn, Steen, Strong, Wolves etc. Go back a little further and you can include Bryan and Punk among others. They even tried for Adam Cole but he turned them down. Vince most definitely does rate ROH, otherwise he wouldn't be paying for so many of their guys.

mrkiscool2

savemejebus wrote: »

I don't know whether he's met all his requirements and I said as much. I was primarily referring to the whole Independent Contractor thing. However, it is important to bear in mind the position Punk was in when he signed his last contract. He was the hottest thing in the industry and pretty much got a very very beneficial contract to keep him there, and with the 360+ day reign as champion Punk will have had to go above and beyond his normal requirements for media appearances etc. so it is very conceivable that he had his dates fulfilled, as I said, no one except for Punk and WWE (and probably AJ) know.

Also, I don't think Vince is concerned about Punk going anywhere else, if i remember correctly Punk hates TNA and Vince doesn't rate ROH.

Really that doesn't matter. Again, it's a year by year thing. So it would have gone from July last year until July this year. You cannot miss that amount of time and still be within the confines of the contract. It's just impossible. I'm aware of the Independent Contractor thing but, through the Independent Contractor, he is an employee of the WWE and hence has to fulfil the dates set out in the contract or he is in breach of contract. It may not be 6 months, but it will certainly be at least 3.

Again, we will know more in the next few weeks.

slicus ricus

gnfnrhead wrote: »

As for Vince doesn't rate ROH, he has signed or given a trial to pretty much everyone who has done well in recent years. Rollins, Zayn, Steen, Strong, Wolves etc. Go back a little further and you can include Bryan and Punk among others. They even tried for Adam Cole but he turned them down. Vince most definitely does rate ROH, otherwise he wouldn't be paying for so many of their guys.

It is fair to say that Vince rates a lot of the talent that work for/ have worked for ROH. The part about him not rating ROH is more that he doesn't rate them on a competitive commercial level i.e. he does not see them as a threat to WWE.

gnfnrhead

slicus ricus wrote: »

It is fair to say that Vince rates a lot of the talent that work for/ have worked for ROH. The part about him not rating ROH is more that he doesn't rate them on a competitive commercial level i.e. he does not see them as a threat to WWE.

Vince doesn't see anyone as a threat because nobody is. That's how they get given a free pass no matter how awful the show gets.

savemejebus

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Eric Bischoff hated WWE/Vince and look what happened there. Give someone enough money and they could change their mind.

Of course money changes stuff but Punk is very hard headed and not short of cash so I can't imagine him going to TNA over ROH if he were to wrestle for anyone again.

gnfnrhead wrote: »

As for Vince doesn't rate ROH, he has signed or given a trial to pretty much everyone who has done well in recent years. Rollins, Zayn, Steen, Strong, Wolves etc. Go back a little further and you can include Bryan and Punk among others. They even tried for Adam Cole but he turned them down. Vince most definitely does rate ROH, otherwise he wouldn't be paying for so many of their guys.

I get what you are saying but that doesn't mean Vince rates ROH. WWE may hire their guys but the days of Vince scouting talent are long gone so there are others finding these guys and bringing them to WWE. In any case, rating a worker is different to rating an organisation as competition and I've read and heard it said many times that since WCW is gone, the only competition Vince sees is UFC and that's a different world altogether.

Palo Alto

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Erm no he's not. He's still under contract by WWE and by contractual law they can renew his contract for all the days he has missed without permission (AKA since after the Royal Rumble) and then release him with a day left on the contract and have a 90-Day no appearance clause (in all WWE contracts.) So that's 6 months plus 90 days (AKA three months) which will put him out until around March next year. If you are going to make a claim at least have the facts to back it up.

Also, gnfnrhead was correct in his assessment. We've seen it from the likes of Rock and Batista (Lesnar being an exception because he is a fcuking freak) that being out of the ring for an extended amount of time does affect how good and fit you are inside it. You have to train like an absolute demon to be anything near in-ring shape. Punk is not.

I'm a qualified solicitor. One cannot unilaterally extend the terms of a contract without the other party agreeing, either explicitly or implicitly, if an option exists to do so, it at least requires tacit acquiescence from the other party.

It's hardly realistic to compare Batista and the Rock to Punk either, they have a lot more weight to maintain and again their main problem? Cardio. If Punk's keeping at the stamina training to a certain level, a few weeks of strength training and in ring work would be enough to get back to ring shape, he's an old hand at it after all.

Not that he's coming back so it's all rather moot.

mrkiscool2

Palo Alto wrote: »

I'm a qualified solicitor. One cannot unilaterally extend the terms of a contract without the other party agreeing, either explicitly or implicitly, if an option exists to do so, it at least requires tacit acquiescence from the other party.

It's hardly realistic to compare Batista and the Rock to Punk either, they have a lot more weight to maintain and again their main problem? Cardio. If Punk's keeping at the stamina training to a certain level, a few weeks of strength training and in ring work would be enough to get back to ring shape, he's an old hand at it after all.

Not that he's coming back so it's all rather moot.

Right then, explain the Mysterio situation to me. He didn't agree to it but is still being kept for another year (to fulfil dates he was unable to fulfil-while INJURED not just p1ssing off cause he felt like it)

Palo Alto

The contract is probably for x amount of dates, not necessarily for a set period of time? He's not in breach but they may be able to hold him to the terms of it so long as he is able. I'd be very surprised if he hadn't agreed to it though. Hard to say without seeing it though, I'm sure there are a number of break clauses that also will allow either party to terminate, although I'm sure it's very much stacked in WWE's favour due to their bargaining position. Labour law in the States also doesn't offer as much protection as you would get here.

If it is for a set time period though, and Mysterio couldn't fulfill his end due to injury then I don't see why he couldn't invoke the defence of impossibility to perform should it come to legal. However, even if he does invoke this defence, he could still potentially be liable for damages to WWE, they would potentially look at his history and declare it a matter of subjective impossibility as opposed to absolute impossibility and factor in the fact that it was very likely that he would get injured, ie a predictable risk.

mrkiscool2

Palo Alto wrote: »

The contract is probably for x amount of dates, not necessarily for a set period of time? He's not in breach but they may be able to hold him to the terms of it so long as he is able. I'd be very surprised if he hadn't agreed to it though. Hard to say without seeing it though, I'm sure there are a number of break clauses that also will allow either party to terminate, although I'm sure it's very much stacked in WWE's favour due to their bargaining position. Labour law in the States also doesn't offer as much protection as you would get here.

If it is for a set time period though, and Mysterio couldn't fulfill his end due to injury then I don't see why he couldn't invoke the defence of impossibility to perform should it come to legal. However, even if he does invoke this defence, he could still potentially be liable for damages to WWE, they would potentially look at his history and declare it a matter of subjective impossibility as opposed to absolute impossibility and factor in the fact that it was very likely that he would get injured, ie a predictable risk.

Right, so we basically are both agreed that if you do not perform set amount of dates as set in the contract you are either a. Liable to serve out said dates in extra time on the contract or b. Liable for breach of contract. Cool

As I have mentioned above (as a person who takes genuine interest in things like contracts wrestlers have because it's so diverse over the whole industry) WWE set a certain amount of dates a wrestler must perform per year on a rolling year-by-year basis until the contract expires. WWE have a clause in their that states if a wrestler is unable to compete in matches for a lengthy period of time (i.e injury or, in Punk's case, f-ing off) they may renew the contract for period of time that the dates would have filled. Which, in CM Punks case, would be at least 3 months (going by what happened from July 2012-2013). Therefore it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect WWE to renew the contract (as they are mulling over as per multiple sources online) and then release him with a few days/weeks left so the 90-day no appearance clause kicks in. Pretty much my points summed up right there.

I highly doubt Punk will ever wrestle at any big level again soon (was always about the passion for the man) and I also doubt he wants a breach-of-contract suit against him seeing as he is currently set for life and that case (WWE would win) would take up a lot of money vis-a-via damages and expenses

Palo Alto

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Right, so we basically are both agreed that if you do not perform set amount of dates as set in the contract you are either a. Liable to serve out said dates in extra time on the contract or b. Liable for breach of contract. Cool

As I have mentioned above (as a person who takes genuine interest in things like contracts wrestlers have because it's so diverse over the whole industry) WWE set a certain amount of dates a wrestler must perform per year on a rolling year-by-year basis until the contract expires. WWE have a clause in their that states if a wrestler is unable to compete in matches for a lengthy period of time (i.e injury or, in Punk's case, f-ing off) they may renew the contract for period of time that the dates would have filled. Which, in CM Punks case, would be at least 3 months (going by what happened from July 2012-2013). Therefore it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect WWE to renew the contract (as they are mulling over as per multiple sources online) and then release him with a few days/weeks left so the 90-day no appearance clause kicks in. Pretty much my points summed up right there.

I highly doubt Punk will ever wrestle at any big level again soon (was always about the passion for the man) and I also doubt he wants a breach-of-contract suit against him seeing as he is currently set for life and that case (WWE would win) would take up a lot of money vis-a-via damages and expenses

We're not really agreed on the above re breach, impossibility is a legitimate defence certainly re injury.

The appearances per annum I'd have to see the contract but was there not talk that Punk had fulfilled his minimum appearances for the year?

At the end of the day, I'm of the opinion WWE will let any potential breach slide regardless as it's in the best interests of both parties to ensure future revenue streams.

It would certainly be very interesting if more details do come out and would offer a good insight into how it works over there.

The Mysterio thing I can't really fathom though, I think it'd be virtually impossible to unilaterally extend a contract if he was legitimately injured.

I'm sure it'll all come out in the wash eventually anyways.

Slutmonkey57b

Since neither of you have seen the contract in question, it matters not a jot who is qualified in what.

Agent Coulson

Palo Alto wrote: »

I'm a qualified solicitor. One cannot unilaterally extend the terms of a contract without the other party agreeing, either explicitly or implicitly, if an option exists to do so, it at least requires tacit acquiescence from the other party.

It's hardly realistic to compare Batista and the Rock to Punk either, they have a lot more weight to maintain and again their main problem? Cardio. If Punk's keeping at the stamina training to a certain level, a few weeks of strength training and in ring work would be enough to get back to ring shape, he's an old hand at it after all.

Not that he's coming back so it's all rather moot.

I thought you were an English teacher (grammar nazi) by the way you corrected my spelling mistake the other day!

mrkiscool2

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Since neither of you have seen the contract in question, it matters not a jot who is qualified in what.

That's like saying I can't argue against feminism because I am not a woman

Diabhal Beag

As a gender transfer plastic surgeon myself I can help you.

CastorTroy

All I'm thinking now is "What does mrkiscool2 look like?" "Does mrkiscool2 look like a b**ch?"

*Pulp Fiction reference in case someone takes offence*

Vision of Disorder

Thought Triple H's eyes betrayed his annoyance that the CM Punk chants are ongoing early on Raw last week.

Though I did enjoy him ripping the pee out of Cena's ghettospeak shortly afterwards.

Moneymaker

Vision of Disorder wrote: »

Thought Triple H's eyes betrayed his annoyance that the CM Punk chants are ongoing early on Raw last week.

Though I did enjoy him ripping the pee out of Cena's ghettospeak shortly afterwards.

I don't blame him, i'd be annoyed too.

Crowds only chant it to get themselves over now. It's every bit as bad as chanting 'We are awesome.'

Soft Falling Rain

Moneymaker wrote: »

I don't blame him, i'd be annoyed too.

Crowds only chant it to get themselves over now. It's every bit as bad as chanting 'We are awesome.'

Do they really? TBH I don't begrudge any crowd airing their dismay at the absence of one the most popular superstars in years, especially if that absence could be argued as the fault of management.

It would say it all about HHH's ego if he believes audiences are really just doing it to irritate him.

Moneymaker

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

Do they really? TBH I don't begrudge any crowd airing their dismay at the absence of one the most popular superstars in years, especially if that absence could be argued as the fault of management.

It would say it all about HHH's ego if he believes audiences are really just doing it to irritate him.

They don't just chant it during HHH segments though.

Fair enough for a Chicago crowd to chant it, but anywhere else is just a bunch of tools trying to draw attention to themselves. It's unfair on the talent that is present and doing their best.

I'm as passionate a WWE fan as you'll find, and I couldn't give a toss that he's gone now, I thank him for busting his ass in ROH and WWE for years, and best of luck to him in his retirement.

Chanting his name achieves nothing. He'll come back when he wants to come back.

beakerjoe

Moneymaker wrote: »

They don't just chant it during HHH segments though.

Fair enough for a Chicago crowd to chant it, but anywhere else is just a bunch of tools trying to draw attention to themselves. It's unfair on the talent that is present and doing their best.

I'm as passionate a WWE fan as you'll find, and I couldn't give a toss that he's gone now, I thank him for busting his ass in ROH and WWE for years, and best of luck to him in his retirement.

Chanting his name achieves nothing. He'll come back when he wants to come back.

The fans arent chanting it to show there dismay, they are doing it because its "the cool" thing to do. Bar Chicago, no one really misses Punk that much now.

I for one think its best for both him and the WWE.

Lord TSC

I firmly believe crowds should be allowed chant what they want; they have bought tickets. It's up to WWE to shut them up, be it through exciting angles or closure of some form.

orestes

Lord TSC wrote: »

I firmly believe crowds should be allowed chant what they want; they have bought tickets. It's up to WWE to shut them up, be it through exciting angles or closure of some form.

Apart from at the HOF ceremony, the crowd at that needs to be more respectful imo.

thebostoncrab

orestes wrote: »

Apart from at the HOF ceremony, the crowd at that needs to be more respectful imo.

It's the only thing I hate about watching the HoF, the ****ing chants when people are talking, it's not the time or place.


I've little issue with people chanting, God I start enough when I go to shows, but I hate when people chant something just for the sake of it. Make the chant about what's going on in the ring, not just because you want to start a chant for the sake of it