CM Punk Megathread

Loughc

Bully Ray via Busted Open Radio:

"The opinion of the dirt sheets becomes the opinion of the AEW fan. My God people... nothing screams sheep more than that. Think for yourself. Don't allow nobodies who can't be pro wrestlers, who now write about pro wrestlers influence what you think about a pro wrestler."

Bully Ray on point here. Too much focus put into fictional 5 stars.

Lord TSC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968783#Comment_121968783

People who don't agree with me, and like wrestling in the way I like wrestling = sheep.

Imagine unironically using Bully Ray for an Appeal to Authority logical argument 😂 Why is it so hard to accept that certain wrestling fans enjoy the alternative product that AEW offers? Not everything has to be done in the WWE style, not everything has to cater to the exact same audience, and this obsessive frustration that AEW exists is absolutely bizarre from some people.

If you don't like AEW, it's not some personal attack on the type of pro-wrestling you do like. WWE and AEW can exist together simultaneously. AEW's existence doesn't delegitimize your existence as a wrestling fan.

I say this as someone who thinks WWE is in an amazing place right now, and who thinks while AEW is not as hot as it was, is still pretty damn amazing overall.

Imagine being a wrestling fan and complaining about dream matches and "fictional 5 stars". How dare wrestling fans enjoy great matches with great wrestlers? How dare a company that isn't WWE put on matches with guys who aren't in WWE?

I feel there's some who seem to take it as a personal insult that AEW has managed to carve itself out an alternative to WWE for people who want something else. It's literally been decades since it's been this good to be a wrestling fan, and yet some people seem genuinely upset and angry that the alternative exists for people. If it's not your thing, fine. Don't watch. But obsessing so much about something you don't like is bizarre.

(And yes, that goes for people who seem to hate WWE and obsess about it too. It's not healthy, and it's not adult at all).

Patrick Mahomes

Bully Ray of all people lol

Regards,

P.

Loughc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968905#Comment_121968905

not sure how you got all that from a Bully Ray quote stating AEW is over reliant on the opinion of dirtsheet writers.

As I’ve stated multiple times before I enjoy the wrestling in AEW I think as a pure wrestling spectacle it’s in ring work is fantastic but they have a terrible business model. As a fan of wrestling I want AEW to succeed as it offers more to the industry as a whole. Without AEW there’s no Cody Rhodes storyline this weekend at Mania arguably the best story currently in pro wrestling.

I honestly believe if Tony focused more on PPV builds than weekly bangers for free to impress a small demographic AEW would thrive more.

Steve Austin used to always say don’t give anything away for free on tv you can make a buck from it down the road on a PPV.

Patrick Mahomes

Also Bully Ray speaking on a “Dirt Sheet” radio show that pays him makes it even funnier.

Regards,

P.

plibige

I think the frustration is, and I'm not sure I can explain this in a way that diehard AEW fans will accept is, although AEW is an alternative, its not the alternative a lot of people hoped for.

As is clear from the pattern of viewing figures and general interest in wrestling over the last 25 years, WWE has not catered to a mainstream audience, or been able to connect with the zeitgeist of pop culture. It has its moments and some people break through but it's a niche interest. And that is fine for some people, but for other more casual fans like myself, we do miss the days when it was so popular and mainstream that it was nearly office talk.

A big disappointed for people is that we (wrongly) assumed that AEW was planning on fixing issues we saw in WWE that could help turn the product mainstream again. The casuals like myself can appreciate a good match, but a storyline, a big build, a must see event and a character that is larger than life is what we crave.

It's totally fine and I accept that AEW caters to a niche "super indie" audience. There is a small market for high quality matches, and obviously with Tony willing to back it as a passion project regardless of its losses it can be sustained in a sort of sugar daddy model.

But the wrestling business has to this point been about drawing, selling out arenas, selling ppv's and merchandise and creating a product that makes people want to come back and see what happens next. CM Punk obviously thought AEW was trying to do that, and quickly reasoned there was no desire to try adapt the product to attract the casual viewer. And that is where the frustration is for a lot of fans.

I as a casual fan, know exactly what I am going to get from any random AEW ppv or weekly show, I'm going to get the fast paced indie style matches, high quality matches. A lot of people I've never heard of not connecting with the audience and an Internet audience that tells me these people are important. And to be honest that bores me, I've no interest in that. I've watched enough AEW ppv's to know they aren't for me. And that is fine that others like them, but we are allowed criticise them. There is a view that it's disappointing they cater to a narrow audience that like what they like and don't want anything to change.

But the audience isn't growing, it's not making any gains in the mainstream, its not for the casuals and Punk is right, the goal seems to be 5 star matches in empty buildings. And if that makes people happy, great, but others are allowed be disappointed that this is the current alternative.

Agent Coulson

AEW never hid what it was going to be from the very first All In, AEW was about something different to what was on offer in North America.

Pro-wresting was thriving outside of North America in Japan, Mexico and Europe untill WWE came and did the very best to destroy those market places, It pretty much killed wrestling in the UK.

AEW brought the best of Indy, Japanesse & World pro-wrestling together at ALL In and created All Elite Wrestling in North American and wrestling Entertainment fans expecting it to be anything other than what it is are now the ones complaining now that isn't what they wanted as an alternative to WWE Sports Entertainment,

Fan of pro wrestling outside of WWE were never going to be in the majority and they are not however AEW still caters for those fans and that is a good thing.

To say Kenny Omega, Will Ospreay, The Young Bucks, Hangman Page, Okada, Penta, PAC, Orange Cassidy to name few wrestlers The women of Joshi the Luchadores never connect with an audience again shows fans only looking at it through WWE Sports Entertainment eyes.

Pro Wrestling & Sports Entertainment are still very niche markets in the greater sence of Sports and Entertainment yet they can still draw billions of dollars from TV and Streaming which shows both are attractive.

20 years of WWE's complete dominance of the TV market place has also created at the very least two generation who think WWE Sports Entertainement is pro- wrestling and nothing exists outside that version of Sports Entertainment which is quiet sad.

I enjoy the spectacle of WWE Sports Entertainment, However I absolutely adore Professional Wrestling that is offered by AEW, NJPW, Stardom, AAA, CMLL, GCW, Rev-Pro, OTT etc etc they are the real alternative to Sports Entertainment.

TNA/Impact/TNA is the true alternative to WWE's Sports Entertainment over the last 20 years not the Pro- Wrestling companines.

Patrick Mahomes

WWE & AEW don’t need full houses to make money like Punk is talking about they are making hundreds of millions a year for TV rights selling out venues would never come close to making that kind of money.

Punk doesn’t think guaranteed money is good for wrestling and wrestlers should be paid on the house they draw but I can bet you one thing he wanted guaranteed money from both AEW and WWE when he signed his contracts

Regards,

P.

SteM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969352#Comment_121969352

WWE & AEW don’t need full houses to make money like Punk is talking about they are making hundreds of millions a year for TV rights selling out venues would never come close to making that kind of money.

They might not need to but you'd think they'd want to have full houses, or at least half-full houses. Every person that buys a ticket can also purchase merch, food, drinks etc. A properly run business would be targeting that kind of growth surely? Starbuck management wouldn't say 'sure we're making a fortune on coffee, don't worry if we're not selling the snacks'. They'd find a way of enticing their customers to purchase the snacks at the same time.

J. Marston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969310#Comment_121969310

That's hilarious. The biggest load of horseshíte is people saying WWE and AEW are different products like pro wrestling and sports entertainment.

WWE is pro wrestling and entertainment. It always has been.

AEW is pro wrestling and entertainment. It always has been.

Certain types like to portray AEW as purely pro wrestling because I dunno, it makes them feel superior, like they're watching a semi-real sport? Fúck knows the reason.

From day one, AEW has been doing stuff like, off the top of my head;

Magical teleporting Matt Hardy.

A match with a giant cocktail at ringside.

Stadium Stampede.

A boxing weigh-in.

Shaq wrestling, Snoop jumping through a table, Tyson falling asleep at ringside.

The Brady Bunch parody.

Cinematic matches.

More recently, Toni Storm's gimmick and MJF/Cole's shtick.

And the pièce de résistance of sports entertainment, two wrestlers performing a Broadway musical number.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grzbDJdiwLo

And I've probably forgotten countless other wacky moments. Hate to break it to some but you're watching sports entertainment every week. The Olympics are coming up if you want to watch pure wrestling.

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969507#Comment_121969507

The non exploding ring of death was the highpoint for me.🤣

I don't have much time to watch wrestling these days but I enjoy AEW and I'm enjoying the WWE product at the moment.

We are absolutely spoiled as wrestling fans these days. 25 years ago we had to wait for several days before we could watch the latest episode of RAW or Nitro and even at that you required some form of paid TV subscription.

Today, we can literally pick up our phones and watch a plethora of high quality wrestling in an instant. I think people are taking that for granted and the AEW vs WWE fanboy crap is as lame as the likes of the PlayStation vs XBOX fanboy crap.

Just be thankful there are now enough alternatives available to scratch whatever particularly wrestling itch you have.

Agent Coulson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969439#Comment_121969439

Starbucks is actually a very good example actually of a corporate company like WWE out to kill the competition when a smaller minority of people prefer to drink their coffees from around the world and in independent coffee houses that provide that enjoyment where they enjoy the coffee without being overloaded with Corporate sell sell mentality you will drink what we serve and like it without question.

SteM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969614#Comment_121969614

I think you're ignoring my point. Presume you're doing it on purpose to get the usual dig in though so carry on.

Agent Coulson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969626#Comment_121969626

Maybe your ignoring the fact that there are different tastes and you only like one taste however each to their own continue enjoying you flavour.

SteM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969650#Comment_121969650

Nobody was talking about tastes, we were talking about whether wrestling companies required big crowds and whether it effected business if they didn't get them. Even independent coffee shops will look to maxamise revenue if they are being run like a proper business.

plibige

Don't think I agree with a lot of what you said there, first and foremost the revisionist history of AEW always being open with what they are. I don't think that is at all true, they may have always produced the same type of wrestling but they did say they were giving us an alternative which is not true at all. All we got was ROH/PWG on weekly television. They kept telling us it was a revolution so people on the outside expected something new and exciting, and we just got the lads off the indies doing what they always did on a bigger platform. And it's totally fine to like that, but it's not an alternative to what was available and its certainly not what was promised.

I agree WWE did kill a few markets especially the UK and that's truly a disappointing for the industry.

I never said the wrestlers you mentioned never connected with an audience, that was a slight of hand strawman argument trick you pulled there. I said they have never connected mainstream, and they haven't. They are big in their niche audience, and that's fine. But it's not without criticism. Wanting someone to be bigger and break through is a valid criticism, AEW haven't had a star like that.

Yes PRO wrestling is niche, but it wasn't always and I feel like people settle for "what else do you expect" which limits the companies potential.

It's great that you love those companies, but it's also fair to say that they don't cater to an audience that want storyline, character and stars. That doesn't mean I am a wwe fan, it's actually much the opposite, it's someone disappointed that the only company creating angles and narrative is wwe and that's a pity. There's plenty of indies producing good wrestling.

I think it's okay to be disappointed like what CM Punk said, that they aren't trying to draw a crowd and put on a spectacle, just a 5 star match

plibige

Don't think I agree with a lot of what you said there, first and foremost the revisionist history of AEW always being open with what they are. I don't think that is at all true, they may have always produced the same type of wrestling but they did say they were giving us an alternative which is not true at all. All we got was ROH/PWG on weekly television. They kept telling us it was a revolution so people on the outside expected something new and exciting, and we just got the lads off the indies doing what they always did on a bigger platform. And it's totally fine to like that, but it's not an alternative to what was available and its certainly not what was promised.

I agree WWE did kill a few markets especially the UK and that's truly a disappointing for the industry.

I never said the wrestlers you mentioned never connected with an audience, that was a slight of hand strawman argument trick you pulled there. I said they have never connected mainstream, and they haven't. They are big in their niche audience, and that's fine. But it's not without criticism. Wanting someone to be bigger and break through is a valid criticism, AEW haven't had a star like that.

Yes PRO wrestling is niche, but it wasn't always and I feel like people settle for "what else do you expect" which limits the companies potential.

It's great that you love those companies, but it's also fair to say that they don't cater to an audience that want storyline, character and stars. That doesn't mean I am a wwe fan, it's actually much the opposite, it's someone disappointed that the only company creating angles and narrative is wwe and that's a pity. There's plenty of indies producing good wrestling.

I think it's okay to be disappointed like what CM Punk said, that they aren't trying to draw a crowd and put on a spectacle, just a 5 star match

Patrick Mahomes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969439#Comment_121969439

That’s not the gotcha you think is. Anyway looking at the rest of your posts it seems you are a poster who thinks posters who question your post or disagree with your post is having a dig at you so no point of continuing discussing anything with you.

Regards,

P.

SteM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969984#Comment_121969984

It's not a gotcha, I'm just wondering why a company would not want to maxamise it's revenue? You're the one that brought it up, I would have thought you'd have a reason?

Agent Coulson

Tony Schiavone on Punk bringing him up in the interview.

“I really don’t give a sh*t about it. I’m not going to get into this. I know what he said and let him continue to talk if he wants. That’s all I got. I don’t give a sh*t. That’s all I can say. I can’t get into that. It would be stupid for me to get into that. I have no idea what he said with the exception of someone who told me, ‘Oh, he brought up your name and here’s what he said’, and I went, ‘So what. So f**king what.’

Reads like Tony isn't impressed with Punk bringing him into all his bollix.

ThePott

Only getting caught up on the discussion (disagreements?) on here about the Punk interview.

Wanna preface all this by saying I'm a fan of Punk, I was when he was in AEW and am still now he's in WWE. He's a great talent and produces some of the best stuff when he's involved. Loved his programmes with Eddie and MJF. Liking what he's doing with Seth and Drew.

He also seems like an unbearable pr*ck. As the saying goes, if everywhere you go smells like sh*t, check your shoes.

That's not to say what he's saying is untrue. There's probably some elements of truth to what he's saying but obviously he's presenting himself in the best light possible and everyone else in the wrong. Which he's done even before this.

Jack Perry could be entitled and insufferable but choking him or attacking him is uncalled for and unprofessional (and he rightly got fired for it). Now you can be sympathetic, as I was before and still am that all of these situations (the Hangman/Colt Cabana situation included) was never nipped in the bud at any point and IF what Punk is saying is true, that he went to Tony and Tony didn't do anything, that's disgraceful and a farce. We've heard plenty of speculation and rumour that Tony is more friends than boss with some talent and this whole thing might have been resolved had he actually acted like a boss (not sure he's learnt that lesson yet). Now, it's probably equally true that Punk benefited from an agreeable, pushover of a "boss" than anybody else.

I heard someone describe this interview as a litmus test for whether you like Punk or not. Some people will defend him to their last breath and other people will take this as evidence that he's a lying egotistical maniac. Chances are we'll never get much info from another party involved. Although, a part of me wonders if this interview could be grounds for legal action.

I think it's also bringing out the worst in people flying their flag for either AEW or WWE. Both companies can have issues and regardless of reasoning the complaints made against AEW could be valid, if true. Punk shouldn't have had to sort his treatment and rehab (if true), he shouldn't have had to navigate his own way around London, it shouldn't have been his responsibility to handle Jack Perry, if Hangman went against what they agreed that is unprofessional and childish, Tony should have handled this drama long before it escalated the way it did.

Again though, it's hard to speak on any of this with any authority when we only get leaks from dirt sheets (some of whom are biased) and Punk, who is obviously giving his own side and spin. There can be fault on both sides and the truth like many things about all the drama probably lies in the middle.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Loughc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971157#Comment_121971157

Fair and informative I liked this TED talk!

JP Liz V1

Punk is Mr. PIPEBOMB when he talks, you listen, he knows how to work a narrative, he is ratings, money and media moments, no matter what he says it gets hits

He is back in WWE but injured for Wrestlemania but look, spotlight and attention on him

ThePott

AJ Styles was asked about his opinion on CM Punk returning. Was pretty surprised with his response tbh, definitely felt like it was going one way for a minute there haha.

https://twitter.com/ringerwrestling/status/1775949851303260467

Punk vs AJ would be a baller feud too.

brianregan09

Think AEW is suffering hard from Vince Mcmahon being gone and the book been given to Triple H , WWE is a much better place without him around , and i reckon alot of lapsed fans that had been watching AEW during the dark times of WWE have now gone back that's why there ratings have gone down

ThePott

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977361#Comment_121977361

I think it's a couple of things. A few people have said that "people didn't want an alternative to WWE, they just wanted WWE to be better" and there's probably some truth to that.

However, I also think AEW haven't done a lot to pivot. When they first started it was easy to say "we're an alternative to WWE" cause that is coded to basically say, we're better than WWE. Which was on point when WWE weren't up to much, Raw was boring, booking was terrible, etc, etc. Regardless of this WWE was succeeding so it was an easy marketing gimmick to thumb your nose at WWE and have AEW say they're 'real wrestling', which I personally think is just marketing that some people have bought into hook, line and sinker. It was an easy selling point too to say that we are David, they're Goliath. Don't we all hate Goliath, it's good to be the underdog, you're supporting the right side by siding with us. Even having ex-WWE talent say anti-WWE stuff to get cheap pops, while providing little else to show why it would be different this time. It felt like they could compete by doing what WWE do but better, more competent and coherent and for a while they absolutely were.

WWE started showing improvement though, AEW haven't done much to come off like competition for a while. Pointing to Vince leaving is part of it but it was happening before he was gone too. Once WWE started getting hot again, AEW stayed the same. I think part of it is they panicked and didn't know how to react to WWE being the hottest they've been in years, which is understandable. At the end of the day, people only have so many hours in the day to devote to wrestling and they need to show what makes them worth the investment. They often seem reluctant to pivot though, I think the early years of AEW were meticulously planned, I don't think that's true anymore. A lot of the production and presentation feels far more WWE in style than it used to as well, which only makes AEW feel less distinct than it did. I think for all the things Punk said that were probably untrue or biased, he is touching on some harsh truths. AEW can put on great matches, there will always be an audience for that but right now it's starting to look like they've at the very least reached the peak of that audience and possibly worse that audience is shrinking. There needs to be changes but it's hard to say exactly what will do it cause it's probably not one thing and they run the risk of making changes that will alienate the hardcore audience they have and rob AEW of its identity.

Everyone who wants a healthy wrestling scene should want AEW to survive, it creates competition that can breed creativity and creates alternative opportunities and a healthy market for the talent to get better pay and working conditions. It just seems like changes need to be made and they're reluctant to make them, which is worrying. It's going to be an interesting few months with the TV upfronts in May and presumably a new TV deal coming down the pipe, it's certainly not a good time though to be slipping in ratings. They've still had big successes lately and it's not as doom and gloom as some present it as but it certainly could be the start of a downward spiral if they don't pull up soon.

JP Liz V1

CM Punk has signed with Paradigm