Hi vis discussion thread (read post #1)

Qualitymark

http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/

John Sullivan is a Royal Air Force pilot with over 4,000 flight hours in his career, and a keen cyclist. He is a crash investigator and has contributed to multiple reports. Fighter pilots have to cope with speeds of over 1000 mph. Any crashes are closely analysed to extract lessons that can be of use.

He goes on to say (technical stuff - read the whole article, very educational)

At a traffic junction all but the worst of drivers will look in both directions to check for oncoming traffic. However, it is entirely possible for our eyes to “jump over” an oncoming bicycle or motorbike.

The smaller the vehicle, the greater the chance it will fall within a saccade.

He advises flashing red rear light and a high-viz unusual enough that drivers will be unconsciously motivated to glance at it. After reading it, I bought this.

CramCycle

Our findings suggest that in the context where the study was done (poor road signaling, limited policing, aggressive driving) changing cyclist behavior may not have substantial impact in terms of accident reduction before other road traffic interventions are implemented.

Probably the most important comment, and probably the one that most people with no cycling experience or association (eg friends or family) can comprehend in my experience.

Leroy42

^^ TBH, I would struggle to keep the carpet on during the cycle. But good idea

Qualitymark

Leroy42 wrote: »

^^ TBH, I would struggle to keep the carpet on during the cycle. But good idea

Admittedly the carpet is a bit of a problem.

CramCycle

Qualitymark wrote: »

Admittedly the carpet is a bit of a problem.

The fashion police have FPNs for that kind of thing

OleRodrigo

Qualitymark wrote: »

Rug

tomasrojo

I quite like the Mondrian design; better than the binman look. But my use of conspicuity aids* is now limited to a reflective belt around the satchel on my lower back. Probably some use, doesn't look outlandish and not very inconvenient.

(*apart from reflectors on the bike and lights)

tigerboon

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

If they ever were to seriously entertain the notion of making high-viz mandatory, aside from the issue of its efficacy, you'd have to question the wisdom of imposing new regulations on visibility when the existing ones are so poorly enforced. There's a massive amount of people riding at night with no lights. And an even bigger number with lights that are so poor they're essentially useless.

The whole hysteria about high viz has a generation of well meaning but gormless individuals riding around decked out greens and yellows but with lights that would barely illuminate a broom cupboard.

Witnessed a close one this evening. Driving with a low setting sun. The car in front of me overtakes the car in front of him on the outside of a long sweeping bend. There's no hedges so you can see a long way and sure enough there's no other cars coming. There was a cyclists about half way round the bend. Lucky for him there is a small junction just where he was and was able to swing down it. Of course the driver was in the wrong but I have to say that I didn't see the cyclist until last minute either. I wasn't overtaking by the way. The cyclist was wearing a black and grey jersey and I didn't think much of his lights. I passed a cyclist last winter at night on the same bend and he was lit up like a Christmas tree and was getting plenty of space and respect from motorists

tomasrojo

tigerboon wrote: »

Witnessed a close one this evening. Driving with a low setting sun. The car in front of me overtakes the car in front of him on the outside of a long sweeping bend. There's no hedges so you can see a long way and sure enough there's no other cars coming. There was a cyclists about half way round the bend. Lucky for him there is a small junction just where he was and was able to swing down it. Of course the driver was in the wrong but I have to say that I didn't see the cyclist until last minute either. I wasn't overtaking by the way. The cyclist was wearing a black and grey jersey and I didn't think much of his lights. I passed a cyclist last winter at night on the same bend and he was lit up like a Christmas tree and was getting plenty of space and respect from motorists

Bolded relevant bits. It's easier to see a cyclist however they're dressed when you're not driving towards a low sun (assuming you were). Hi-viz doesn't help with a low sun. In fact, in the case of a lollipop man who was killed in England, the investigators opined that the hi-viz blended with the low setting sun.

As for respect, since I toned down the hi-viz, I've had far fewer incidents of car passengers throwing stuff out of car windows at me. Looking outlandish doesn't make people "respect" you. It can sometimes do the opposite. (It probably can help them see you, but there surely is a point of adequate conspicuity that falls short of looking like a Christmas tree.)

tigerboon

tomasrojo wrote: »

Bolded relevant bits. It's easier to see a cyclist however they're dressed when you're not driving towards a low sun (assuming you were). Hi-viz doesn't help with a low sun. In fact, in the case of a lollipop man who was killed in England, the investigators opined that the hi-viz blended with the low setting sun.

As for respect, since I toned down the hi-viz, I've had far fewer incidents of car passengers throwing stuff out of car windows at me. Looking outlandish doesn't make people "respect" you. It can sometimes do the opposite. (It probably can help them see you, but there surely is a point of adequate conspicuity that falls short of looking like a Christmas tree.)

Hi-viz is next to useless in that scenario. After witnessing that close one yesterday evening I just wanted to highlight a significant hazard for this time of year. The sun is setting at about 7pm and yesterday been a nice day lads come home from work and head out for a spin and maybe are not aware of this particular hazard. Drivers, in fairness, can be completely blinded by the sun at times (same in the morning heading east) especially when the sun is coming through trees etc. When driving home in the evenings, I get a good feel for this and would not normally head out on the bike with a low sun as visibility can be down to 50m at times. Dull evenings are safer at this time of year.

CramCycle

I have told this story before where a Garda pulled over a driver for running a red light in front of him.
Her reason was she could not see the lights due to the low setting sun.
His response was to pull over the car and park until it was safe to drive. HR should have done her for dangerous driving.

If the sun is in your eyes and you cannot see. You should either not be driving or solve the problem before continuing. The setting sun is not an excuse for a drivers poor choices.

If the sun is in my eyes. I either put on my glasses, pull over and walk or go in a different direction. I do not plough on regardless.

tigerboon

CramCycle wrote: »

I have told this story before where a Garda pulled over a driver for running a red light in front of him.
Her reason was she could not see the lights due to the low setting sun.
His response was to pull over the car and park until it was safe to drive. HR should have done her for dangerous driving.

If the sun is in your eyes and you cannot see. You should either not be driving or solve the problem before continuing. The setting sun is not an excuse for a drivers poor choices.

If the sun is in my eyes. I either put on my glasses, pull over and walk or go in a different direction. I do not plough on regardless.

If you care to read back a bit you'll see I wasn't the one doing the ploughing on.

CramCycle

tigerboon wrote: »

If you care to read back a bit you'll see I wasn't the one doing the ploughing on.

And I wasn't having a go at you. I was simply pointing out that if vision is impaired, either take appropriate remedial action or stop at the first opportunity. It was directed at anyone who thinks that not doing so is OK.

tomasrojo

Hiviz'ed animals again. Was it chickens the last time?

Dartmoor ponies daubed with glow-in-dark paint to cut road deaths
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/dartmoor-ponies-glow-in-dark-paint-cut-road-deaths?CMP=twt_gu

CramCycle

At least the Steemson guy recognises the fault is with speeding motorists and not the animals.

Article should be: Motorists in area won't drive with due care and attention so we have to paint animals.

eeeee

Ah ffs. :mad:

From the same article:

"Steemson said there would be no need for the project if motorists drove with greater caution across the moor. “People should slow down. When they cross a cattle grid, they ought to realise that animals could be around and drive carefully.” "

Ok but don't bother we'll just paint the animals who have been living there for thousands of years instead :rolleyes:. Argh!

tomasrojo

More from the UK: some interest in Ireland's growing hi-viz culture.
https://twitter.com/AlternativeDfT/status/650067665428566018

HT @IrishCycle

Qualitymark

Ireland is turning into India, becoming a country where unnecessary paperwork and nonsensical rules make society unworkable.

I took the train to Belfast yesterday, and was required to fill out a form "because you're crossing the Border". Thought it might be because of using the travel pass, so on the way back asked a Nordie pensioner if he had to fill out a form to travel south. Nope.

OleRodrigo

Qualitymark wrote: »

Ireland is turning into India, becoming a country where unnecessary paperwork and nonsensical rules make society unworkable.

I took the train to Belfast yesterday, and was required to fill out a form "because you're crossing the Border". Thought it might be because of using the travel pass, so on the way back asked a Nordie pensioner if he had to fill out a form to travel south. Nope.

Don't knock bureaucracy - keeps a lot of folks ( without many transferable skills ) working in the civil service . Was it a survey? I found the enterprise train to Belfast one of the better journeys, maybe because it was NI Railways as opposed to Irish rail - a whole coach to store my bike.

Qualitymark

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Don't knock bureaucracy - keeps a lot of folks ( without many transferable skills ) working in the civil service . Was it a survey? I found the enterprise train to Belfast one of the better journeys, maybe because it was NI Railways as opposed to Irish rail - a whole coach to store my bike.

Not a survey, a New Rule, or so I was told.

The Enterprise trains weren't great yesterday - no plugs or wifi on the way back, for instance; they were, according to my northern pensioner advisor, commuter trains that were being used while the real trains are away getting polished or something.

traprunner

Qualitymark wrote: »

Not a survey, a New Rule, or so I was told.

The Enterprise trains weren't great yesterday - no plugs or wifi on the way back, for instance; they were, according to my northern pensioner advisor, commuter trains that were being used while the real trains are away getting polished or something.

I believe that the carriages are being refitted and modernised.

eeeee

Qualitymark wrote: »

Not a survey, a New Rule, or so I was told.

The Enterprise trains weren't great yesterday - no plugs or wifi on the way back, for instance; they were, according to my northern pensioner advisor, commuter trains that were being used while the real trains are away getting polished or something.

I've had to fill out the form for the last ten years, it's been about a while.

Qualitymark

gadetra wrote: »

I've had to fill out the form for the last ten years, it's been about a while.

Weird that southerners have to fill it out going north, while those dangerous northerners don't have to fill it out going south! And what on earth happens to all those forms!

HivemindXX

Qualitymark wrote: »

Weird that southerners have to fill it out going north, while those dangerous northerners don't have to fill it out going south! And what on earth happens to all those forms!

I've crossed the border dozens of times and I've never been asked to fill out a form.

I hope anyone who tries to tell me that wearing hi-viz is my social responsibility is prepared to be told loudly and repeatedly to go **** themselves.

Qualitymark

HivemindXX wrote: »

I've crossed the border dozens of times and I've never been asked to fill out a form.

Obviously @Gadetra and I are particularly dodgy-looking types with shifty eyes.

galwaycyclist

HivemindXX wrote: »

I've crossed the border dozens of times and I've never been asked to fill out a form.

I hope anyone who tries to tell me that wearing hi-viz is my social responsibility is prepared to be told loudly and repeatedly to go **** themselves.

Me neither - but I was in my "nice car" every time. Maybe its only public transport users who have to fill in forms?

Dodgy types them PT users - its only right to make the fill in a form or two.

Edit: of course now that I think about it, I was probably photographed from several different angles.

traprunner

Qualitymark wrote: »

Obviously @Gadetra and I are particularly dodgy-looking types with shifty eyes.

As shifty as these?

ezra_

I wear hi-viz when I'm cycling in or after dusk.
I also wear if walking during the same period.

I don't care what anyone else does, none of my business.

CramCycle

gadetra wrote: »

I've had to fill out the form for the last ten years, it's been about a while.

I have never been asked to fill it out. The only person I have ever heard of something like this happen to me is a good friend who was singled out for ID on the enterprise train by Gardai. Nothing to do with her Asian ancestory I am sure or being the only non white irish. CoincIdentally in line with a rise in illegal immigrant scare mongering in the red tops.

Is the form you are asked for from the rail company / marketing company or an actual government form. I imagine it's the former dressed up as the latter. Marketing companies are known for this on Irish rail many notably imitating rail staff on trains in the past.

Qualitymark

Government, I think, though I didn't look too closely. I was travelling on a decrepitcy pass, thought it might be to do with that. I've never been asked to fill it out before, though it's a couple of years since I've been north - the station for Dublin was the Europa one when I was last there.