Irish Cycling Legislation

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962859#Comment_120962859

Which makes the cycle crossing and lights completely redundant, having no useful function.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962950#Comment_120962950

And that's the issue you have. A new piece of infrastructure that's relatively shït. But just say that, instead of pretending like you don't know how to proceed through the junction.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962961#Comment_120962961

Afraid it is not just an issue that AndrewJRenko has, it is far bigger than that. Any person who was not familiar with junction may have a hard time trying to figure this out. Design should be intuitive.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963784#Comment_120963784

Granted, there's should probably be a cycle lane straight through the junction, or, less ideally, one that wraps around the corner to join up with the cycle light/junction thing, but anyone who is cycling any length of time (e.g. andrewjrenko) shouldn't have too much issue figuring out how to proceed through that junction.

As I said, by all means call out poor infrastructure, but why pretend like you're so confused by it you can't figure out how to proceed

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963823#Comment_120963823

It’s not that I can’t figure out how to proceed. I have managed to pass through the junction multiple times without being frozen in to indecision.

I can’t figure out how to proceed legally, making use of the new infrastructure.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963835#Comment_120963835

Yes you can. You already said how. Dismount, and walk your bike around to the cycle light/lane.

Or legally stay in the main traffic lane and proceed through.

Or what most people who want to use the infrastructure will do, ignore "legally", use the path for 10 yards or so, and cycle to the new infrastructure on the wide path.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963858#Comment_120963858

Perhaps I should have been clearer and said;

I can’t figure out how to proceed legally without dismounting, making use of the new infrastructure.

I’m not being sarky. I’m trying to validate whether I’ve missed or misunderstood something that makes the new infrastructure usable for a cyclist without breaking the law and without dismounting.

It seems that I haven’t missed anything.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963784#Comment_120963784

i'd echo this. if they're making such a hames of a junction in this day and age, it says a lot about how much care is going into this.

cletus

You can't. You know you can't. Nobody else here can come up a 'legal' solution that you haven't seen, because there isn't one. It's just more badly designed infrastructure.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962961#Comment_120962961

i think you're responding to an argument he's not making. 'i can't see how to traverse this junction legally, because it's badly designed' is not the same as 'i'm stuck, because i cannot traverse this junction'.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963892#Comment_120963892

Perhaps, his posts seemed to suggest he was confused about how to cycle through, rather than being confused by the stupidity of whatever civil engineer made a bollix of that junction

Idleater

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963904#Comment_120963904

I read this as part of the thread title, in so far as, here is a new piece of infrastructure, what part of the legislation have they adhered to (checkbox) vs how have they accommodated new infrastructure in a non compliant just get it done.

Neither are equivalent to an actual cycling/pedestrian first infrastructure build, that could be both legally compliant, safe _and_ intuitive to use.

McGrath5

It's dreadfully designed, any cycling infrastructure that needs to be "figured out" has already failed.

Paddigol

I think you're entitled to expect, in this day and age, and with the amount of money being spent on the infrastructure, that it is built following/ to some form of best practice/ standards. So when you see a brand new intersection with lots of different lights and surface finishes and colours and contours, it's not unreasonable to assume that if you can't figure out what you're meant to do to avoid being a 'typical cyclist breaking red lights', that it must be a comprehension failing on your end. Except here, it transpires, it's not. Its a case of "ah, shur it'll do" from the local authorities who will no doubt point to all the new cycling infrastructure they're spending their money on in being 'cycling friendly'.

It really shouldn't be this hard.

CramCycle

Oddly enough, the real issue for me is that as you progress in any scenario, no matter how you do it, there is going to be some d1ck giving out stink. That's the real issue here. Without realising that there is no sensible "technically" correct way to progress. You will have some giving out you waited for the main lights, some giving out you went when the main lights were Red, some giving out you dismounted and some giving out you didn't. In reality, it's not a major thing in the moment, the issue is the aggressive ones who will become more enraged at the cyclists on the road because of a perceived slight.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964297#Comment_120964297

I agree and it looks to my non-Dublin eyes that there was plenty of room to have a much better solution here.

We will look back in a decade or so and see a lot of money have to be repent on re-medial "active travel" infrastructure because it was not done right in the first place, this of course may occur earlier especially if volumes of people cycling on it requires more urgent remediation.

Schorpio

This discussion reminds me of the McCurtain St junction in Cork. I'd be curious to get people's take on it.

There is no dedicated cycle lane. The street is currently one-way, with three lanes at the traffic lights. There is a bike box at the junctions (all occupied by cars/vans in the streetview image!). At the far side of the junction (just to the right of centre in the image) there is a red light, a red man, an a red bike light.

The green man coincides with the green bike light. There is no other dedicated bike traffic light facing this direction. The footpaths on either side are not shared cycleways.

Question is - when the green bike goes on, do you go?

The position of the light would suggest that the bike should be waiting on the footpath with pedestrians, but there is no bike lane there.

https://goo.gl/maps/TEXaStgyx3D3rtgEA

gmacww

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963858#Comment_120963858

Walk your bike around the lights? Opening up a can of worms here pal...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxMeeAdt1ng

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964566#Comment_120964566

And it'll be the cycling community that will get it in the neck for the extra expense - "we already spent €x gazzilion back in 2023 in upgrading the infrastructure and now they want us to do it again after wasting all our money and complaining!"

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120965983#Comment_120965983

Perhaps - or we could just blame the Civil Engineers with their 20th Century engineering solutions. Anybody know what is the best Civil Engineering Dept in the various Irish Universities that is making strides into the 21st Century?

magicbastarder

i think i asked this before but cannot remember the answer - where you see a bus lane and cycle track (and i'm talking about one where the cycle track is marked distinct from the bus lane), the hours of operation of the bus lane automatically apply to the cycle track, i assume? or is a mandatory cycle lane a mandatory cycle lane regardless?

there's a rather confusing example here, at the bottom of ballymun road. before the bus lane begins, a sign indicates the cycle track is in operation 7am-7pm, mon to saturday.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3798777,-6.2661206,3a,90y,346.32h,70.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sCTZ_2WIKc-pC6DlcGNw06Q!2e0!5s20140701T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu

yet a mere 60m later at the start of the bus lane, a new sign states the bus lane and cycle track is only in operation during peak evening hours. presumably because it's OK to park in the bus lane, but when there's no bus lane, parking on the precious road would be a step too far.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3803306,-6.2659583,3a,58.7y,342.82h,76.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sKk3KPFfumz2abfQJ8zovmA!2e0!5s20211201T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120981947#Comment_120981947

To my knowledge, bus lane hours are for bus lanes and the legislation doesn't refer to cycle tracks. I think that the cycle lane has it's own signage to the bus lane signs (which include a cycle in them but this is the standard RUS028 bus lane sign.

Also that cycle track has a solid line which means that vehicular traffic cannot cross it, surely there is no driving or parking on it regardless of its hours of operation.

@Peregrinus might be able to offer his counsel on this though.

magicbastarder

The first sign refers to a cycle track with an unbroken white line, with hours of operation specified in the sign, which would certainly imply that mandatory cycle lanes can have hours of operation. Unless the sign is against regs.

Seth Brundle

Unfortunately, I can't open the Traffic Signs Manual in work but a sign being contrary to the regulated signs wouldn't be a new thing. I pass some every day on the R136 Lucan-Tallaght dual carriageway - https://www.google.com/maps/@53.318453,-6.4286612,3a,47.6y,151.86h,93.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfQr93ICdUgcMqOgbobUg-w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

magicbastarder

from the national cycle manual:

"Mandatory Cycle Lanes are 24 hour unless time plated in which case they are no longer cycle lanes." - odd wording? does that mean they're not cycle lanes *at all*, or just not outside the hours of operation? also under 'key issues to be considered', is listed "24-hour operation preferred, but time plating possible"

page 66 of this PDF (numbered page 56 of the document)

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/national_cycle_manual_1107281.pdf

Seth Brundle

Apparently it uses sign RUS 009 which if I search the Irish Statute Book site, gives legal status when there hours of operation but it loks like it is not a legal cycle track outside of those hours (not sure if this has been superceeded)...

6. The following shall be substituted for article 14 of the Principal Regulations:—

"14. (1) A cycle track shall be indicated by traffic sign number RUS 009 or RUS 009A provided in association with traffic sign number RRM 022 (continuous white line) or RRM023 (broken white line) which latter signs may be marked on the right-hand edge of the cycle track or on the right-hand and left-hand edges of the cycle track.

(2) The periods of operation of a cycle track may be indicated on an information plate which may be provided in association with traffic sign number RUS 009 or RUS 009A.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/si/274/made/en/print#:~:text=(1)%20A%20cycle%20track%20shall,hand%20edges%20of%20the%20cycle

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964474#Comment_120964474

I counted eight cyclists ahead of me this morning going through on the red light, green cycle light at edge combo. The green cycle light is the defacto GO for all cyclists, regardless of location.

aldark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193554#Comment_121193554

Not sure if that's anything to do with the "pedestrian" cycle light. At a lot of junctions there are always a good few cyclists who head off with ped lights.

This junction hasn't changed much going into town - the green cyclist light has always been on with the pedestrian green light for cyclists to cross the road, but that's at the pedestrian crossing.

The real kicker has been the east west change following the dodder. Cyclists can't go straight ahead while on the cycle lane, the lane continues around the corner where you have to wait for a ped light to cross.

So going to churchtown from templeogue, I have to use a ped crossing. Seems like a really poor decision on the part of the council. There seems to be a mindset to try and keep cyclists separate from traffic by treating us like pedestrians.

AndrewJRenko

Here's an interesting (well, interesting to me anyway) legislative query;

I've seen a few of these 'bus only' lights recently. This one is on the N11, at Oatlands school. There's one on Rathgar Road, approaching Rathmines too.

The light says 'Bus', but I'm assuming that this means 'bus lane users', which includes cyclists. Am I right?

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225582#Comment_121225582

I assume so, but does it include cycle-lane users? I'd just go anyway.

Interesting one on the new bi-directional cycle lane at Booterstown: as your going towards Blackrock at the bottom of Booterstown Ave there are now 5 different lights facing you

• two for the road (straight on and left)
• one for pedestrians crossing the entrance to the Dart station carpark;
• two for cyclists (for crossing the carpark entrance to use the cycle lane in the park, and for going straight along the cycle lane on the road).

When the green lights come on for pedestrians and cyclists going into the park, with the straight-on light also green for cars (left turn light is red), the straight-on cycle light for the road stays red! The only logic I can think is that it's to stop cyclists turning left into the carpark while pedestrians and cyclists are crossing but it's super confusing and I just go anyway.