Irish Cycling Legislation

Beasty

HivemindXX wrote: »

No bike rack has a notice saying that locking bikes is permitted. So based your theory where do you think it is legal to lock a bike?

Anywhere on the public road where it is not forbidden by law parking is permitted. Do you think it makes sense that parking cars is permitted anywhere not explicitly forbidden but the reverse is true for bicycles?

Do you have anything other than your imagination to go on?

Parking a vehicle is different from securing it to someone else's property
If someone locked their bike to your property what would you think?

galwaycyclist

HivemindXX wrote: »

No bike rack has a notice saying that locking bikes is permitted. So based your theory where do you think it is legal to lock a bike?

Anywhere on the public road where it is not forbidden by law parking is permitted. Do you think it makes sense that parking cars is permitted anywhere not explicitly forbidden but the reverse is true for bicycles?

Do you have anything other than your imagination to go on?

Hmm on phone now so difficult to check but I have it at the back of my mind that it may be technically illegal to park vehicles, such as bicycles, on the footpad - or at least it was at one time.

Like speeding it may be a legal concept that is more broken than observed by most drivers.

ted1

HivemindXX wrote: »

I had a look but I don't see anything about where you can legally lock your bike. I was under the impression that it was legal to lock your bike to a street sign, however this 'notice' which was taped to a pole off Grafton Street claims it is only legal to use official bike parking facilities. If this is true how do we know what's an official bike parking facility and what isn't?

The guards use similar noticed around the Aviva during match days.
Not sure where this particular one is but bikes may be causing an obstruction during the busy periods

GM228

HivemindXX wrote: »

I had a look but I don't see anything about where you can legally lock your bike. I was under the impression that it was legal to lock your bike to a street sign, however this 'notice' which was taped to a pole off Grafton Street claims it is only legal to use official bike parking facilities. If this is true how do we know what's an official bike parking facility and what isn't?

This sign dosn't mention you can't lock your bike to a sign or not, just that you can't park your bike, generally most signs/poles are positioned on the footway and yes it is illegal to "park" a bike on a footway (unless it is a designated bike parking area) so weather or not you can lock it is irrelevant.

EDIT: I tought cycle parking areas were covered under legislation, but it would appear they actually arn't?

rubadub

GM228 wrote: »

(unless it is a designated bike parking area)

and the poster who put the photo up was asking what this was? i.e. how can you tell.

Are these bikes illegally parked in grafton street?

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3398751,-6.2605475,3a,75y,60.67h,71.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSbuxBQ0mLqOH4WbPFZuWfw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

There appears to be no signage saying those rails are for locking bikes. And would it need official signage, i.e. a legally defined one, otherwise you could just carry a sign about yourself and put it up.

Lumen

Isn't this thread for requesting/stating legal facts (e.g. questions followed by links to legislation) rather than just idly speculating on what might or might not be legal?

monument

Lumen wrote: »

Isn't this thread for requesting/stating legal facts (e.g. questions followed by links to legislation) rather than just idly speculating on what might or might not be legal?

I was thinking so, and in that vain...

GM228 wrote: »

This sign dosn't mention you can't lock your bike to a sign or not, just that you can't park your bike, generally most signs/poles are positioned on the footway and yes it is illegal to "park" a bike on a footway (unless it is a designated bike parking area) so weather or not you can lock it is irrelevant.

Can you support your claim that it's illegal to park bicycles on footpaths?

Can you support your claim that "designated bike parking area" has any meaning in law?

galwaycyclist

monument wrote: »

I was thinking so, and in that vain...



Can you support your claim that it's illegal to park bicycles on footpaths?

Can you support your claim that "designated bike parking area" has any meaning in law?

On the footway parking this is prohibited under article 36.2 (i) of the Traffic and Parking regulations.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print#zzsi182y1997a36

Its a law that may not be enforced much but it exists in black and white.

Qualitymark

That law is clearly meant for cars, vans and trucks, not bicycles. Badly phrased, though.

GM228

monument wrote: »

I was thinking so, and in that vain...



Can you support your claim that it's illegal to park bicycles on footpaths?

Can you support your claim that "designated bike parking area" has any meaning in law?

Designated bike parking area is a hard one to confirm, probably a grey area, perhaps Galwaycyclist would be able to confirm?

But regarding parking a cycle on a footpath all county parking bye-laws states you can't park any "vehicle" at any time on a footway and a cycle is a vehicle under law.

Take the old Dublin ones for example:-

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1986a6[/url]

Places where parking is prohibited at all times.

6. A vehicle shall not, at any time be parked on a public road-

(i) either wholly or partly on a footway, a grass margin or a median strip,

EDIT: Also confirmed in the Traffic and Parking regulations as pointed out by Galwaycyclist.

GM228

Qualitymark wrote: »

That law is clearly meant for cars, vans and trucks, not bicycles. Badly phrased, though.

No, the law specifically states a bicycle is a vehicle so applies to them also.

galwaycyclist

Qualitymark wrote: »

That law is clearly meant for cars, vans and trucks, not bicycles. Badly phrased, though.

Uh no we have been through this before, the word vehicle includes pedal cycles.


See the 1961 Act for definitions
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/enacted/en/print.html


This may be something guards no longer enforce but if you go back to when we had a stronger cycling culture you might find some prosecutions.

Edit: One way to look for circumstancial evidence of this would be old photographs showing bicycles parked by balancing a pedal against the kerb instead of being left against the nearest wall.

rollingscone

This has already been covered guys:

https://twitter.com/Flaminghobo1/status/678199759425904640?s=09

Qualitymark

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Edit: One way to look for circumstancial evidence of this would be old photographs showing bicycles parked by balancing a pedal against the kerb instead of being left against the nearest wall.

That's circumstantial evidence of the growth of bicycle theft!

monument

Still no support for the claim that "designated bike parking area" has any meaning in law? My questions were interlinked, not standalone.

galwaycyclist wrote: »

On the footway parking this is prohibited under article 36.2 (i) of the Traffic and Parking regulations.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print#zzsi182y1997a36

Its a law that may not be enforced much but it exists in black and white.

Black and white?...

S.I. No. 182/1997:

ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997

Interpretation
4. (1) In these Regulations:—

(5) A reference to a vehicle in these Regulations shall, unless otherwise specified, mean a mechanically propelled vehicle (other than a mechanically propelled wheelchair) and a pedal cycle.

(6) For the purpose of these Regulations, a pedestrian shall include a person in charge of a vehicle which is not mechanically propelled.

Both (5) and (6) can be seen to be described as a bicycle... Bit of a massive contradiction there!

So, we turn to intent: Did the minister in 1997 wish to ban parking of bicycles on footpaths: Highly unlikely.

So, this is how it stands:

• Massive contradiction in the relevant interpretations / definitions
• No intent, clear or otherwise, by lawmakers to ban footpath bicycle parking
• No expectations (in contradictory law) allowing for bicycle parking on footpaths
• Sheffield stands and other stands installed on footpaths across the country
• Cycle Hoops installed on traffic poles across the core shopping areas of Dublin

The SI in question is a bit of a mess, but that's the same across a lot of road traffic law! Intent has to be considered.

galwaycyclist wrote: »

See the 1961 Act for definitions
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/enacted/en/print.html

As above, there's interpretations / definitions given in S.I. No. 182/1997, so the 1961 definitions are not relevant.

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Edit: One way to look for circumstancial evidence of this would be old photographs showing bicycles parked by balancing a pedal against the kerb instead of being left against the nearest wall.

Maybe they were easily starters of the "park where I want to" movement: https://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/9606836848/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/9196891300/ etc

GM228

monument wrote: »

So, we turn to intent: Did the minister in 1997 wish to ban parking of bicycles on footpaths: Highly unlikely.

I'm not so sure, if they didn't want to ban ccles on a footway then their would be an exception, look at the various county councils bye-laws like the one I linked, they have specific exceptions for cycles on parking restrictions, but not for footways. So that would show cycles were tought about when making the laws.

monument

GM228 wrote: »

I'm not so sure, if they didn't want to ban ccles on a footway then their would be an exception, look at the various county councils bye-laws like the one I linked, they have specific exceptions for cycles on parking restrictions, but not for footways. So that would show cycles were tought about when making the laws.

Which county parking bylaws are not fully or partly revoked? In any case a mistake in an SI is not a invalid because they got it right in a bylaw before that.

galwaycyclist

monument wrote: »

Which county parking bylaws are not fully or partly revoked? In any case a mistake in an SI is not a invalid because they got it right in a bylaw before that.

Ok in that case if the wording is a mistake can you show us why you think they originally got it right in the Road Traffic and General by laws that SI 182 replaced?


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print#zzsi294y1964a26

monument

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Ok in that case if the wording is a mistake can you show us why you think they originally got it right in the Road Traffic and General by laws that SI 182 replaced?


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print#zzsi294y1964a26

I have not said that the original got it right or wrong. It's not really a question I'd ask once it has been replaced by another act or SI.

galwaycyclist

monument wrote: »

I have not said that the original got it right or wrong. It's not really a question I'd ask once it has been replaced by another act or SI.

You raised the issue of the Minister's intent. It seemed to me that your phrasing indicated that in your view the 1997 ban on parking on footways was something new and an unintentional outcome of an unfortunate mistake. It should be possible for you to demonstrate this for us by comparing and contrasting your sources with those already introduced.

Apologies if I misunderstood the intent of your comments.

GM228

(6) For the purpose of these Regulations, a pedestrian shall include a person in charge of a vehicle which is not mechanically propelled.

I'm not sure why that is a contradiction, that would be in reference to a person who is walking (a pedestrian), but who is pushing the bike rather than cycling it - i.e they are responsible for the bike, but not driving it.

monument

galwaycyclist wrote: »

You raised the issue of the Minister's intent. It seemed to me that your phrasing indicated that in your view the 1997 ban on parking on footways was something new and an unintentional outcome of an unfortunate mistake. It should be possible for you to demonstrate this for us by comparing and contrasting your sources with those already introduced.

Apologies if I misunderstood the intent of your comments.

Oversight rather than misstate, is how they would look at it. Intent in the 60s really does not matter as much as intent in 1997 when the SI was passed (i.e. the most relevant legislation) but it could easily have been an oversight back in the 60s then too. The law in both cases seems to be directed at cars and there's an oversight / error / whatever in the way it was written.

If the department viewed the law the same way you do they should not be funding bicycle parking on footpaths. But they are funding it and councils are placing it there.

galwaycyclist

monument wrote: »

Oversight rather than misstate, is how they would look at it. Intent in the 60s really does not matter as much as intent in 1997 when the SI was passed (i.e. the most relevant legislation) but it could easily have been an oversight back in the 60s then too. The law in both cases seems to be directed at cars and there's an oversight / error / whatever in the way it was written.

If the department viewed the law the same way you do they should not be funding bicycle parking on footpaths. But they are funding it and councils are placing it there.

With regret I see no such distinction between cars and pedal cycles in either the 1964 or the 1997 legislation. Indeed the 1964 by laws refer prominently to driving pedal cycles.

With regret I also do not share your confidence in the Department's role as "supervisors" of lawful behaviour by local authorities. Indeed as a rule I understand that the Department declines to accept a supervisory role over how local authorities spend government funds.

I even recall junior Transport Minister Alan Kelly TD saying as much in a parliamentary reply before he moved to environment.

monument

galwaycyclist wrote: »

With regret I see no such distinction between cars and pedal cycles in either the 1964 or the 1997 legislation. Indeed the 1964 by laws refer prominently to driving pedal cycles.

With regret I also do not share your confidence in the Department's role as "supervisors" of lawful behaviour by local authorities. Indeed as a rule I understand that the Department declines to accept a supervisory role over how local authorities spend government funds.

I even recall junior Transport Minister Alan Kelly TD saying as much in a parliamentary reply before he moved to environment.

Thankfully our legal system is not purely reliant on the letter of written legislation, and intent and practice have to be accounted for.

galwaycyclist

monument wrote: »

Thankfully our legal system is not purely reliant on the letter of written legislation, and intent and practice have to be accounted for.

I agree and here is the big picture. In Galway according to census data, 44% of workers live within a 20 - 25 minute cycle of work. If people like me are successful in restoring cycling as a mass form of transport , can we really have all these bikes parked willy nilly all over footpaths?

There is nothing inherently offensive in regulating where people can expect to park bikes. What makes it a problem is the willful refusal of local authority planners and managers to see that adequate bike parking is provided.

galwaycyclist

monument wrote: »

Thankfully our legal system is not purely reliant on the letter of written legislation, and intent and practice have to be accounted for.

I should also point out that arguably the underlying problem here is an attitude of contempt among the Garda, and possibly the courts, for the idea that people on foot are entitled to unobstructed footways.

(Many cycle campaigners are also campaigners for pedestrian access)

monument

Make it clearly illegal to obstruct footpaths, does not require a total bicycle on footpath ban.

galwaycyclist

monument wrote: »

If the department viewed the law the same way you do they should not be funding bicycle parking on footpaths. But they are funding it and councils are placing it there.

I should also make the relevant observation that if councils were to put bike parking on the roadway then in many cases it would mean removing paid on-street car parking. Thereby foregoing the income.

The issue of the tension between council car-parking income and other council practice is not something that the Department appears to want to explore or upset.

Come to think of it you appear to be inclined to look the other way yourself.

galwaycyclist

I had come across this parking issue before so I went digging through old boxes of files over Christmas and pulled out this report from 1979.

RS. 242, Bicycle Travel in Galway City, M.J. Brennan, An Foras Forbartha Teoranta, 1979

An Foras Forbartha was also known as the "National Institute for Physical Planning and Research". It was in a way a precursor to the NRA. The Foras Forbartha office was in the same building that went on to house the NRA - St Martins House in Waterloo Rd Dublin 4.

Michael J. Brennan was a lecturer in Civil Engineering in UCG for many years. On page 17 his report states.

3.3 Parking

Raised kerbs on the edges of carriageways are often the only public parking facilities available to cyclists. Although kerbs are not intended for resting parked bicycles they can only be used in the absence of on-street parking and guardrails. It is not surprising therefore, to find bicycles leaning against buildings or chained to lamp posts, railings or young trees as the need arises. These practices have the disadvantages of marking the facades of buildings and spoiling aesthetic appearances

It seems to me the way the opening sentence is phrased confirms that footpaths (footways) were not considered a lawful public parking facility and were simply an option of last resort for cyclists who had no other choice.

The report has a foreword by Peter O'Keefe the head of the Roads Division at the National Institute. (This was the second report on cycling published by the institute in five years.) It was supervised by Professor J.D. O'Keefe at UCG. A Mr. G.P. Leyden, Chair of the Roads Division Advisory Committee (and Borough Engineer for Galway Corporation) is also listed as having assisted in drafting the report. It seems to me that the language used must have been uncontroversial for any of these contributors.

This observation regarding these persons is not meant as an "appeal to authority". I have seen enough daft wording in reports from local councils to know better than that. But this is a national report, it was funded by An Foras Forbartha. It is roughly contemporaneous with beginning of the changes that happened to council funding in 1978 and the report is not apparently tied to any "schemes" or financial transactions involving council officials and department civil servants or construction companies or civil engineering consultants. So I feel it can be trusted in this aspect.

For completeness the rest of this section of the report continues.

Private firms, factories, universities and schools frequently provide parking facilities in the forms of concrete block holders and parking stands with wheel-rim holders. In order to maintain security at parking stands it is essential that cyclists chain both a wheel and the frames of their bicycles to fixed objects(25); this precaution can be taken with wheel-rim holders, hitching posts, stall racks and lockers.

Qualitymark

So is the suggestion that the councils are breaking the law by putting bike stands on pavements?