Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

bobcoffee

Western Ukraine is not exactly pro EU either, I know are main media have been labeling them as "pro-EU" but not all are.
There "pro-Ukraine" which is fine and they should be it is just a lot of people do not realise this.
The gangsters who put the last guy in charge are still there, they just defected to the "pro-EU" side.

I would love to welcome Ukraine into the EU too but something would need to be done first, like full investigation into both sides.
Reduction in corruption and all that but it takes TIME.
Won't be any quick fix that is for sure.

sopretty

Is anybody else watching RTE One and hearing it stuck on 'Irish Ukrainians, not Russians' on repeat? Or is it just my tv???/

tayto lover

sopretty wrote: »

Is anybody else watching RTE One and hearing it stuck on 'Irish Ukrainians, not Russians' on repeat? Or is it just my tv???/

Joke of a station.
Nobody left in the building obviously.

Will23

Happening me too, kinda find it funny!!

technocrat

sopretty wrote: »

Is anybody else watching RTE One and hearing it stuck on 'Irish Ukrainians, not Russians' on repeat? Or is it just my tv???/

I am hearing the same!
C'mon to fup RTE and sort it out!!!

andrewdeerpark

sopretty wrote: »

Is anybody else watching RTE One and hearing it stuck on 'Irish Ukrainians, not Russians' on repeat? Or is it just my tv???/

someone give rte a call their still repeating.... Some staff on tonight

robindch

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

All utterly irrelevant to the fact Russia is breaking international law and quite frankly, to this thread.

Not that irrelevant -- while the Russian government has entirely lost the PR battle at international level, it's use of social media to deliver anti-US, anti-EU propaganda successfully is one of the more interesting aspects of this particular conflict. And the simple, not to say simplistic, messages delivered by social media are well-tuned to anti-US sentiment and basically boil down to just a few, simple, false notions:

• The US and the EU are backing fascists and neo-nazis in Kiev against Mother Russia, both politically and financially (no, the EU and the US have provided limited funding to moderate pro-Maidan activists and have repeatedly condemned violence from any side.)
• The invasion of Crimea is ok because the US invaded Iraq/Libya/Vietnam, delete as appropriate (no, that's the Tu quoque fallacy. Or more colloquially, it's whataboutery.)
  
• The government in Kiev is anti-Russian (no, they are acutely aware of sentiments in Crimea and the east of Ukraine and are trying hard not to inflame the situation; even Pravii Sektor have publicly stated on their website that they're anti-corruption, but not anti-Russian).

From a cost perspective, the RU government has spent hundreds of millions on RT-style propaganda to low-information consumers and it's done well out of it.

Certainly they've had a much better political return than they've had on the $10 billion or so that the Russian Central Bank spent today propping up the Ruble which still fell to a recent-history low against the Dollar; plus the $60 billion or so wiped off the Moscow Stock Market in its almost-12% single-day nosedive.

Russia books a seriously-impressive $70 billion loss in one day? The RCB's reported reserves of around $450b wouldn't last til the end of next week at that rate if they're called upon to cover it.

K-9

Conas wrote: »

I wouldn't be as biased as you are though. Fox News is pure and utter garbage, owned by Rupert Murdoch, CEO is Roger Ailes, so I wouldn't expect anything less. At least with RT they get on people who are a lot more controversial, and they don't shout people down, or cut them off. Fox News drummed up the Iraq war with their out and out rubbish talk, so wouldn't be going to them over the Ukraine thing.

Does it have much critical analysis or investigative programmes of Putin and the Government?

nomdeboardie

Will23 wrote: »

Happening me too, kinda find it funny!!

It was for the first minute :eek:

BorneTobyWilde

Russian Kit KAT yUM

Tea drinker

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

All utterly irrelevant to the fact Russia is breaking international law and quite frankly, to this thread.

I don't agree it's irrelevant, as legally it amounts to precedent. Yugoslavia, 90 day bombing Serbia to "accept" NATO troops, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya arming rebels in Syria, refusing to condemn Islamic terrorists in Caucasus. Global surveillance with no respect for privacy in domestic, business and political circumstances. recently Ukraine "gov" asked terrorists to start attacking Russia.

sopretty

technocrat wrote: »

I am hearing the same!
C'mon to fup RTE and sort it out!!!

I think the Russian propagandists have stormed RTE

aloyisious

If those countries upset by Putin's actions want to do something, they could always decide to put themselves on the front line, send their foreign and trade ministers (in rotation) as goodwill messengers (hostages) for the next two months to Ukrainian cities close to the Russian border. It might just put a bit of caution into Putin & his ministers, being held responsible for killing/s of foreign diplomats.

There seem's to be confusion about the reported threat from the Black Sea fleet to attack Ukrainian Bases at 3AM, with the Russian Defence Ministry calling it false. The report has left me wondering where is the Ukrainian Admiral who defected to the Russians after he was promoted to head of the Ukrainian Navy by his own Govt, and whether he might have tried to show his loyalty to the Crimean area Parliament by stupid statements/threats.

Sky is reporting now that a Russian Admiral (sky recorded the meeting on camera) visited the Sevastopol Ukrainian Naval Base and met his Ukrainian counterparts outside the base-gates. The report also said the base was surrounded by Russian Paratroops (also on the sky report camera footage) on the ground and the Ukrainian Navy ships blocked in by Russian Naval ships so they can't put to sea.

I can see one act that might cause trouble: if the Ukrainian Ships get steam up and try to sail, the Russians might have to do what the British Navy did to the French Navy in 1939/40, sink them to stop them being used. The only other option would be to lay mines but that would scupper the Russian ships there as well.

Iwasfrozen

Tea drinker wrote: »

I don't agree it's irrelevant, as legally it amounts to precedent. Yugoslavia, 90 day bombing Serbia to "accept" NATO troops, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya arming rebels in Syria, refusing to condemn Islamic terrorists in Caucasus. Global surveillance with no respect for privacy in domestic, business and political circumstances. recently Ukraine "gov" asked terrorists to start attacking Russia.

Nonsense. If I kill someone and get away with it you are not legally free to kill someone because of "precedent".

Cork boy 55

Irish ukranians not russians

Manach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Do they need evidence of this before they invade or can they invade now give evidence later.

Prior evidence. That is the gist of the doctrine. Both sides are claiming the legitimacy of international law, on balance it would rest with the Ukrainians as there was no proof of actual immediate harm to the ethnic Russian population.

cerastes

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Irish ukranians not russians

You dont gotta come and confess

uh uhhhh uh, we got your t shirt

Iwasfrozen

Manach wrote: »

Prior evidence. That is the gist of the doctrine. Both sides are claiming the legitimacy of international law, on balance it would rest with the Ukrainians as there was no proof of actual immediate harm to the ethnic Russian population.

Russia invades Ukraine, Russia is in violation of international law. It has nothing to do with America.

bobcoffee

If you kill someone and get away with it, then that IS a problem.
If then someone else kills then that is ALSO a problem.

its amazing how much it is OK for the allies to continue provoking Russia against actions that they were certain to take.
then pretend to talk about negotiations while at the same time canceling negotiations with Russia.
then trying the trade sanctions.

funny how a very western world'ish country can bomb UN peacekeepers and UN aid stations with phosphorus and nothing being said.

Russia gets involved (which it shouldn't but can see why) doesn't kill anyone (yet).
Allows Ukraine Special Forces to live (no idea how long that will last).
Demands that "stability" (their version of course) be in place before Russia will move its forces out.

I'm lost on why anyone would think that this behavior from western world is OK but Russia deserves trade sanctions.
I would LOVE to see countries be held responsible under UN law but it is not happening, so why should only RUSSIA and non western world countries be under this law?

AlekSmart

aloyisious wrote: »

If those countries upset by Putin's actions want to do something, they could always decide to put themselves on the front line, send their foreign and trade ministers (in rotation) as goodwill messengers (hostages) for the next two months to Ukrainian cities close to the Russian border. It might just put a bit of caution into Putin & his ministers, being held responsible for killing/s of foreign diplomats.

True,especially since we have Mr Gilmore adopting a "Skibereen Eagle" stance this evening.....apparently unaware that Ireland already has it's own "Man in Moscow".......

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/billionaire-russian-to-hire-lenihan-246931.html

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2013/10/26/interview-with-conor-lenihan/

A lot of the perceptions people have about Moscow are time- dated to the Nineties when it was a hugely difficult time. The Soviet system had collapsed and the new system hadn’t established itself. There was a degree of lawlessness that is entirely absent now. ‘This has been the one reason why Vladimir Putin keeps getting re-elected — he brought Russia through some difficult years and pushed economic growth and stabilised the country.’

Anyone got an oul Belarus they want to get rid of.....;)

K-9

Well take Iraq: France, Russia and the other coutries could have taken trade sanctions against the US, UK etc., they chose not to for some strange reason.

Conas

K-9 wrote: »

Well take Iraq: France, Russia and the other coutries could have taken trade sanctions against the US, UK etc., they chose not to for some strange reason.

The US violates International Law when it suits them, then scream and shout when someone else does it. No wonder why nobody respects what America has to say in the International Arena anymore. Just go away and leave everyone alone.

bobcoffee

Well I'm not sure if you know much about the UN.
But the trade sanctions that I know of are and will continue to be pro American/western world orientated.

There was a treaty not long ago trying to be singed up, had massive support around the world.
It was to monitor weapons being sold on an international level.
Guess who stormed out... AMERICA!!

czx

Conas wrote: »

Just go away and leave everyone alone.

....so we can annex Ukraine in peace

Conas

bobcoffee wrote: »

Well I'm not sure if you know much about the UN.
But the trade sanctions that I know of are and will continue to be pro American/western world orientated.

There was a treaty not long ago trying to be singed up, had massive support around the world.
It was to monitor weapons being sold on an international level.
Guess who stormed out... AMERICA!!

America has been on the receiving end of two massive thrashings at the United Nations: Palestine's Upgrade to Non Member State, and the lifting of the Cuban Embargo, which was a vote of 188-2. They have been wrong about everything in Foreign Policy.

Conas

czx wrote: »

....so we can annex Ukraine in peace

Let the EU sort it out. American influence in the Middle East was a disaster, I don't want them doing the same to Europe thanks very much.

aloyisious

I'll break out laughing if it (the Sevastopol incident) all boil's down to a tough bargaining stance by Putin to ensure the Ukraine honour's it's pre-existing Black Sea Fleet Naval Base agreement (we'll "steal" their property, use it as a bargaining chip, get what we want and then return it for a new 100-year lease of the base) plus legally-recognized rights for Crimean ethnic-Russians. The fact that Putin might then dump the New Crimean Parliament for a return to normal relations with Western Countries would be just "Real Politik" tough ****.

sopretty

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Irish ukranians not russians

Lol. This was both alarming and amusing in equal measure.

Nodin

Conas wrote: »

America has been on the receiving end of two massive thrashings at the United Nations: Palestine's Upgrade to Non Member State, and the lifting of the Cuban Embargo, which was a vote of 188-2. They have been wrong about everything in Foreign Policy.

Not that I see the relevance but "thrashings" that have resulted in not even so much as a red mark on the bottom. Nor did far more serious matters during the Reagan era.

Nodin

sopretty wrote: »

Lol. This was both alarming and amusing in equal measure.

Not as much as the Irish Russian-Ukranian response will be.