Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Elmer Blooker

conditioned games wrote: »

Nope, it made no sense for the special police to escalate an already tense situation by killing people at random. From the following pictures the snipers were not in uniform and they had masks on. More likely it was members of the Svoboda party that killed the people which also included 3 dead police men from which the Svoboda party benefited from.

http://www.internationalist.org/ukrainefascistcoup1403.html

There is a phone call between EU Foreign Minister Catherine Ashton and Estonian Foreign Minister Urmat Paets where they discuss that BOTH police and protesters were killed by the same weapons - Were any forensic tests carried out on the dead? What do you think?

I don't read NATO press releases. I guess I don't obsess about the military alliance like some people with no lives.

Would these people "with no lives" be the hundreds of thousands of civilians deaths caused by NATO aggression?

gandalf

conditioned games wrote: »

Nope, it made no sense for the special police to escalate an already tense situation by killing people at random. From the following pictures the snipers were not in uniform and they had masks on. More likely it was members of the Svoboda party that killed the people which also included 3 dead police men from which the Svoboda party benefited from.

http://www.internationalist.org/ukrainefascistcoup1403.html

That's your proof? That's it?

You say "most likely its members of", in reality you are saying you don't know.

BTW one of the pictures headlined "Including snipers among the protesters in the Maidan on February 20" is actually using a pellet gun, not a high powered rifle.

Elmer Blooker

From The Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/rbth/politics/10857920/ukraine-murder-maidan.html

After Kiev dismissed Mr Yakimenko’s testimony, a leaked recording of a conversation between the head of the European Union’s diplomatic service, Baroness Ashton, and Estonia’s foreign minister, Urmas Paet, appeared to confirm it. “There is a stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers – it was not Yanukovych, it was somebody from the new [ruling] coalition,” Mr Paet told Baroness Ashton, citing evidence that “there were the same snipers killing people from both sides.”
This version, in Mr Paet’s words, was confirmed by the fact that policemen and protesters were killed “by the same kind of bullets” and that “the new coalition does not want to investigate” this evidence.

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

From The Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/rbth/politics/10857920/ukraine-murder-maidan.html

Wouldn't happen to know if they were shot with with an AK variant rifle

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

From The Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/rbth/politics/10857920/ukraine-murder-maidan.html

The doctor who Mr. Paet claimed told him this then denied that she had said it.

Olga Bogomolets said she had not told Mr Paet that policemen and protesters had been killed in the same manner.

"Myself I saw only protesters. I do not know the type of wounds suffered by military people," she told The Telegraph. "I have no access to those people."

Also it is entirely probable that the weapons used were exactly the same by both sides as the country is awash with Soviet era small arms.

Gatling

gandalf wrote: »

The doctor who Mr. Paet claimed told him this then denied that she had said this.



Also it is entirely probable that the weapons used were exactly the same by both sides as the country is awash with Soviet era small arms.

Witnesses claim to have seen nicely dressed men carrying special sniper bags and AKM's with optical sight's
.
Currently seen in most eastern European and russian states militias and police forces .

All that report says the ballistics didn't Match the guns of the 12 berkut officers arrested not so long ago,
In saying that as we seen in Crimea the little green men all carried Ak variants too

woodrow wyatt

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

A new poll by Oxford University finds that only around 10% in East and South Ukraine want either independence or to join Russia.

Looks like you get your info from kiev press releases.You should look at whats happening and then make up your own mind.
The facts are the Kiev government is on its fourth or fifth round of conscription, does this sound like the government has the support of the people?
The Donbas rebels have no conscription, only volunteers.

Gatling

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Looks like you get your info from kiev press releases.You should look at whats happening and then make up your own mind.
The facts are the Kiev government is on its fourth or fifth round of conscription, does this sound like the government has the support of the people?
The Donbas rebels have no conscription, only volunteers.

And you can actually prove this ,

robindch

Gatling wrote: »

In saying that as we seen in Crimea the little green men all carried Ak variants too

Ah, but the self-defense militias in Crimea were polite little men in green, not the very impolite men in black who perpetrated the massacre on Maidan.

robindch

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

From The Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/rbth/politics/10857920/ukraine-murder-maidan.html

Yes, that leaked phonecall is available on youtube - I remember hearing it a while back and thinking that Ashton gave every impression that she was listening to the ramblings of somebody who was telling her that the moon was made of green cheese.

Lemming

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

The Donbas rebels have no conscription, only Russian "volunteers" following orders.

FYP

woodrow wyatt

Gatling wrote: »

And you can actually prove this ,

Are you saying you are completely unaware of the kiev government conscripting men?

Gatling

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Are you saying you are completely unaware of the kiev government conscripting men?

I know that and I i know about the conscripts in Donbas and donesk , conscripts from Russia and so called volunteers.
Just because there from Russia doesn't mean they aren't concrips

Ren2k7

conditioned games wrote: »

Nope, it made no sense for the special police to escalate an already tense situation by killing people at random. From the following pictures the snipers were not in uniform and they had masks on. More likely it was members of the Svoboda party that killed the people which also included 3 dead police men from which the Svoboda party benefited from.

http://www.internationalist.org/ukrainefascistcoup1403.html

Everyone accepts those doing the shooting that killed close to a 100 Ukrainian revolutionaries were the Berkut scum, along with Titushkis. Most of them fled to Crimea and the East. It's not really surprising that the loopy far left would associate with these fascist filth.

Ren2k7

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

From The Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/rbth/politics/10857920/ukraine-murder-maidan.html

They were alluding to those gunmen acting under orders from Moscow. By the latter stages of the revolution the Gestapo like Berkut and Titushkis were taking orders directly from the Kiev offices of the FSB, with input from Yanukovich who had become no more than a regional governor in the country he was supposed to be leading:

(Reuters) - Ukraine's prime minister on Thursday blamed ousted President Viktor Yanukovich for the deaths of dozens of anti-government protesters shot by police snipers and urged Russia to hand him over to face charges.

Arseny Yatseniuk made his comments to Reuters after Ukraine's security service (SBU) blamed the killing of more than 100 protesters in mid-February on the Berkut riot police but said Yanukovich had been involved in planning the operation.

The SBU also said representatives of Russia's FSB security force had been at the SBU headquarters in Kiev - under the previous government - during three months of protests, and that Russia had flown explosives into Ukraine as they worsened.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/03/us-ukraine-crisis-killings-idUSBREA320QO20140403

conditioned games

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Everyone accepts those doing the shooting that killed close to a 100 Ukrainian revolutionaries were the Berkut scum, along with Titushkis. Most of them fled to Crimea and the East. It's not really surprising that the loopy far left would associate with these fascist filth.

The pictures of the snipers doing the shooting tell a different story. They are wearing masks, are not in uniform, they killed 3 and hospitalised 20 police men along with several civilians. They look very similar to members of the neo nazi Svoboda party that later overthrew the elected government in a coup. This same nazi party was been heavily financed by the US government. The below article discusses the USA’s funding of this nazi party

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/us-backing-neo-nazis-ukraine

Ren2k7

Cyprus emphatically denies any offer to Russia of military bases:

There has never been, and indeed there is no question of Russian air or naval military bases on the soil of Cyprus, said Foreign Minister Ioannis Kassoulides, on the sidelines of the Foreign Affairs Council, in Brussels.

“Besides, there has never been any request from Russia about this”, the Minister told CNA, replying to questions.

Kassoulides clarified that “what President Nicos Anastasiades referred to, in a recent interview, was the renewal of a military cooperation agreement with Russia consisting of maintenance of military equipment sold to Cyprus years ago, as well as the purchase of spare parts according to existing contracts..

http://www.cna.org.cy/webnewsEN.asp?a=18efb79817de4325928f9c6009e19044

Ren2k7

conditioned games wrote: »

The pictures of the snipers doing the shooting tell a different story. They are wearing masks, are not in uniform, they killed 3 and hospitalised 20 police men along with several civilians. They look very similar to members of the neo nazi Svoboda party that later overthrew the elected government in a coup. This same nazi party was been heavily financed by the US government. The below article discusses the USA’s funding of this nazi party

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/us-backing-neo-nazis-ukraine

You're not doing yourself any favours with these increasingly outlandish and bizarre claims. Your links to the communist aligned Alternet site means nothing.

Offer proof of the US funding the Svoboda Party (which isn't Neo-Nazi BTW) as well as proof they orchestrated the killings in Kiev please.

gandalf

conditioned games wrote: »

The pictures of the snipers doing the shooting tell a different story. They are wearing masks, are not in uniform, they killed 3 and hospitalised 20 police men along with several civilians. They look very similar to members of the neo nazi Svoboda party that later overthrew the elected government in a coup. This same nazi party was been heavily financed by the US government. The below article discusses the USA’s funding of this nazi party

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/us-backing-neo-nazis-ukraine

That article discusses absolutely nothing and provides no proof at all of the US backing of that party. It is rambling waffle.

Again please provide REAL proof or just admit that this is just your opinion.

conditioned games

Ren2k7 wrote: »

You're not doing yourself any favours with these increasingly outlandish and bizarre claims. Your links to the communist aligned Alternet site means nothing.

Offer proof of the US funding the Svoboda Party (which isn't Neo-Nazi BTW) as well as proof they orchestrated the killings in Kiev please.

Explain how AlterNet site is communist? Also another misconception from yourself to think Russia is a communist country.

Gatling

conditioned games wrote: »

Explain how AlterNet site is communist? Also another misconception from yourself to think Russia is a communist country.

I'll disagree with russia been a communist country it's more a of mix of states ruled over by a tyrant

conditioned games

gandalf wrote: »

That article discusses absolutely nothing and provides no proof at all of the US backing of that party. It is rambling waffle.

Again please provide REAL proof or just admit that this is just your opinion.

Have a read over the below. It too discusses the USA funding of a Nazi party that overthrew an elected government in Ukraine which was sparked off a civil war.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-aided-a-coup-led-by-neo-nazis-in-ukraine/5371940

Iwasfrozen

conditioned games wrote: »

Have a read over the below. It too discusses the USA funding of a Nazi party that overthrew an elected government in Ukraine which was sparked off a civil war.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-aided-a-coup-led-by-neo-nazis-in-ukraine/5371940

Have a wee read about the founder of that organization, from wiki:

"In his book 2000 Bosnia, Kosova, and the West, Mike Karadjis refers to Chossudovsky as a "noted apologist for the Milošević regime".[17] At the time of the Kosovo war, Karadjis accused Chossudovsky of setting out a 'meticulous frame-up', 'full of half-truths, assumptions, and innuendoes about the Kosovo Liberation Army's (KLA) alleged use of drug money', which sought to discredit the KLA.[18]

In the National Post, Terry Glavin accused Chossudovsky of 'mouthing Baathist propaganda'.[19] Glavin quotes Chossudovsky's characterisation of the 'Syrian revolt' as a revolt of 'Islamists, Salafi as well as Muslim Brotherhood gunmen, [-] death squads supported directly by Turkey and Israel”.[19]

A 2005 article in The Jewish Tribune criticized the Centre for Research on Globalisation's website as "rife with anti-Jewish conspiracy theory and Holocaust denial." B'nai Brith Canada had complained that there were comments on a forum that questioned how many Jews died in the Holocaust. Website editor Michel Chossudovsky responded that there was a disclaimer that the website was not to be held responsible for the views expressed in the forum, and he had the comment removed. He also said that he was of Jewish heritage and would be one of the last people to condone antisemitic views.[20] The same article also reported that B'nai B'rith Canada wrote a letter to the University of Ottawa asking for the university "to conduct its own investigation of this propagandist site."[20]

In a 2006 Western Standard article by Terry O'Neill, Chossudovsky was included among "Canada's nuttiest professors", "whose absurdity stands head and shoulders above their colleagues" and who were "peddling half-baked or discredited theories or plain old bigotry".[21] Chussodovsky was said to hold that the U.S. had fore-knowledge of the September 11 attacks and the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami; that Washington had weapons that could influence climate change; and that the large banking institutions are the cause of the collapse of smaller economies, characterised by O'Neill as " more like wild-eyed conspiracy theories than serious political discourse""

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky

Lemming

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Have a wee read about the founder of that organization, from wiki

Also, from an earlier post in this very thread:

Lemming wrote: »

Ummm, not to put too fine a point on it; but the source for the article was GlobalResearch, who use RussiaToday extensively as their own source, and the site is owned by Michel Chossudovsky who whilst holding Canadian citizenship is the son of Russian immigrants, and has past form for making absurd allegations regarding the Bosnian-Serb war, holocaust denial, and is a conspiracy theorist.

K-9

Mod:

Moved a few posts from the other Ukraine thread over to this one. This thread is the busiest and deals with current affairs and a more general discussion.

gandalf

conditioned games wrote: »

Have a read over the below. It too discusses the USA funding of a Nazi party that overthrew an elected government in Ukraine which was sparked off a civil war.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-aided-a-coup-led-by-neo-nazis-in-ukraine/5371940

That's worse than the previous site you cited. Read the responses from Iwasfrozen and Lemming about it.

Other than fringe conspiracy theory websites do you have any substantive proof of what you are saying?

Ren2k7

conditioned games wrote: »

Explain how AlterNet site is communist? Also another misconception from yourself to think Russia is a communist country.

I never said it was. In fact it's the very opposite of a communist state, it's a hyper capitalist society where wealth is in the hands of Putin's oligarchy.

Ren2k7

conditioned games wrote: »

Have a read over the below. It too discusses the USA funding of a Nazi party that overthrew an elected government in Ukraine which was sparked off a civil war.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-aided-a-coup-led-by-neo-nazis-in-ukraine/5371940

Global Research?! Oh for the love of......

conditioned games

gandalf wrote: »

That's worse than the previous site you cited. Read the responses from Iwasfrozen and Lemming about it.

Other than fringe conspiracy theory websites do you have any substantive proof of what you are saying?

You appear to deem these articles from various websites conspiracy theory because they contradict the false lies coming from America. There are numerous articles online that give an account of the nazi Svoboda party holding a coup forcing an elected government from office. That same party was financed by the USA government. This is another website that documents the events which comes from America, but at this stage based on all the evidence put forward you will again seek to believe the western and more specifically the USA lies that Russia is somehow trying to overtake eastern Europe?


http://www.infowars.com/us-backed-neo-nazi-party-given-key-roles-in-ukrainian-government/

Ren2k7

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Have a wee read about the founder of that organization, from wiki:

"In his book 2000 Bosnia, Kosova, and the West, Mike Karadjis refers to Chossudovsky as a "noted apologist for the Milošević regime".[17] At the time of the Kosovo war, Karadjis accused Chossudovsky of setting out a 'meticulous frame-up', 'full of half-truths, assumptions, and innuendoes about the Kosovo Liberation Army's (KLA) alleged use of drug money', which sought to discredit the KLA.[18]

In the National Post, Terry Glavin accused Chossudovsky of 'mouthing Baathist propaganda'.[19] Glavin quotes Chossudovsky's characterisation of the 'Syrian revolt' as a revolt of 'Islamists, Salafi as well as Muslim Brotherhood gunmen, [-] death squads supported directly by Turkey and Israel”.[19]

A 2005 article in The Jewish Tribune criticized the Centre for Research on Globalisation's website as "rife with anti-Jewish conspiracy theory and Holocaust denial." B'nai Brith Canada had complained that there were comments on a forum that questioned how many Jews died in the Holocaust. Website editor Michel Chossudovsky responded that there was a disclaimer that the website was not to be held responsible for the views expressed in the forum, and he had the comment removed. He also said that he was of Jewish heritage and would be one of the last people to condone antisemitic views.[20] The same article also reported that B'nai B'rith Canada wrote a letter to the University of Ottawa asking for the university "to conduct its own investigation of this propagandist site."[20]

In a 2006 Western Standard article by Terry O'Neill, Chossudovsky was included among "Canada's nuttiest professors", "whose absurdity stands head and shoulders above their colleagues" and who were "peddling half-baked or discredited theories or plain old bigotry".[21] Chussodovsky was said to hold that the U.S. had fore-knowledge of the September 11 attacks and the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami; that Washington had weapons that could influence climate change; and that the large banking institutions are the cause of the collapse of smaller economies, characterised by O'Neill as " more like wild-eyed conspiracy theories than serious political discourse""

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky

Chossudovsky is an agent of the Kremlin and his website is funded by them to boot. Anything they say is lies and can be dismissed. It should surprise no one that Chossudovsky is a common face on Russia Today and that his site blames the West/America for pretty much every bad thing happening in the world right now. Global warming? Blame America. Poverty? Blame America. Economic downturn? Blame America. War between two tribes in the deepest, darkest jungles of the Amazon? Blame America.... on so on.