Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Ren2k7

conditioned games wrote: »

You appear to deem these articles from various websites conspiracy theory because they contradict the false lies coming from America. There are numerous articles online that give an account of the nazi Svoboda party holding a coup forcing an elected government from office. That same party was financed by the USA government. This is another website that documents the events which comes from America, but at this stage based on all the evidence put forward you will again seek to believe the western and more specifically the USA lies that Russia is somehow trying to overtake eastern Europe?


http://www.infowars.com/us-backed-neo-nazi-party-given-key-roles-in-ukrainian-government/

And now you quote InfoWars! :eek:

That's the clean sweep of nuttiness. Russia Today, Global Research and now Alex Jones personal blog. Well done you.

Next you'll be citing Above Top Secret, Before It's News and Natural News (which claims an intergalactic "stargate" took MH370).

gandalf

conditioned games wrote: »

You appear to deem these articles from various websites conspiracy theory because they contradict the false lies coming from America. There are numerous articles online that give an account of the nazi Svoboda party holding a coup forcing an elected government from office. That same party was financed by the USA government. This is another website that documents the events which comes from America, but at this stage based on all the evidence put forward you will again seek to believe the western and more specifically the USA lies that Russia is somehow trying to overtake eastern Europe?


http://www.infowars.com/us-backed-neo-nazi-party-given-key-roles-in-ukrainian-government/

Firstly given all your links dubious or not you haven't actually shown any link at all that shows that party is funded and financed by the US, those are your words. Can you show this or not.

The providence of the sites you are linking to are shaky in some cases and heading for the outright conspiracy theory in others. Again I will say to you as I have to others who have trotted out the same line, I cannot see how the numerous MAINSTREAM news organisations around the world (with the exception of Russian ones who are directly in the control of the Kremlin) have not run with these stories if there is substantial evidence. The fact they haven't leads me to believe there isn't substantial evidence at all and it is a narrative that is being fed to the gullible on sites that are influenced by the Kremlin or irrational hatred of the US.

robindch

conditioned games wrote: »

http://www.internationalist.org/ukrainefascistcoup1403.html

conditioned games wrote: »

http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-aided-a-coup-led-by-neo-nazis-in-ukraine/5371940

conditioned games wrote: »

http://www.infowars.com/us-backed-neo-nazi-party-given-key-roles-in-ukrainian-government

Let me see, a website whose logo is a hammer and sickle, a website which reproduces low-end Kremlin propaganda and a website run by [url=a deranged maniac?

You'd really have to feel for honest Russians - with nothing left but websites catering to paranoid conspiracists and wingnuts and still supporting their government's threats, aggression, deceit and murder.

#awkward

conditioned games

The links from various websites are all valid. They are considered dubious and untrue from you because they highlight what has happened in Ukraine in late 2013 and early 2014 which conflicts with the American version that there was a peaceful transition of government and now Russia wants to take over Eastern Europe.


What you have been told in the western media so far has been inaccurate but like tv zombies that believe what you are told I doubt you have any interest in reality.
So far we have learned the coup, that lead to the overthrow of the democratically elected government was done so by the far right Svoboda party. This party was funded by the USA government. This is another link to another website describing the USA involvement with Nazi’s in Ukraine.


http://fpif.org/seven-decades-nazi-collaboration-americas-dirty-little-ukraine-secret/


In a leaked conversation the US diplomat to Ukraine, Victoria Nuland was heard saying the US government have spent $5 billion in Ukraine to get a new government and was caught scheming on tape to install Yatsenguk before Viktor Yanukovych had left office. What right have the USA to create the seeds of conflict and civil war in Ukraine?


These are facts which so far the only counter argument has been ‘ oh all these websites are dubious and there’s not really a civil war going on in Ukraine and Russia is the enemy and Putin is a tyrant and let me see what else did the US government tell me on tv’. Oops, when you open your brainwashed eyes, the pictures you have drawn up in your head don’t match what has actually happened but either way it’s not as if you are going to care.

gandalf

conditioned games wrote: »

The links from various websites are all valid.

Now they aren't as numerous others have pointed out to you.

They are considered dubious and untrue from you because they highlight what has happened in Ukraine in late 2013 and early 2014 which conflicts with the American version that there was a peaceful transition of government and now Russia wants to take over Eastern Europe.

No it is because they are driving a particular narrative from a very particular position without any REAL proof.

What you have been told in the western media so far has been inaccurate but like tv zombies that believe what you are told I doubt you have any interest in reality.

No what you are spouting is mantra and either you are vested in the narrative because of whatever personal reasons you have, be it a connection to the region or an irrational hatred for the US that blocks an ability to see wrong when it is done by others.

When the US does wrong I will point it out as has been demonstrated on this forum numerous times. The Russians are the cancerous party to the disaster that has befallen the Ukraine.

So far we have learned the coup, that lead to the overthrow of the democratically elected government was done so by the far right Svoboda party.

There was no coup. It is a fantasy concocted by the Russians and one that has been spouted again by Vladimir Putin in Egypt again.

This party was funded by the USA government. This is another link to another website describing the USA involvement with Nazi’s in Ukraine.

And again you spout this without any proof at all. Please provide proof that they were funded by the US.

http://fpif.org/seven-decades-nazi-collaboration-americas-dirty-little-ukraine-secret/

Really you are scraping the barrel now.

In a leaked conversation the US diplomat to Ukraine, Victoria Nuland was heard saying the US government have spent $5 billion in Ukraine to get a new government and was caught scheming on tape to install Yatsenguk before Viktor Yanukovych had left office. What right have the USA to create the seeds of conflict and civil war in Ukraine?

Who leaked the conversation. What was the real context of the conversation? What does it prove, a diplomat having what they thought was a private conversation with a colleague. I've said things to colleagues in conversation that wouldn't be for general consumption as I am sure many have.

You seem to forget this whole scenario kicked off because Yanukovych was pressured by Russia not to sign the EU Trade Agreement in Nov 2013.

These are facts which so far the only counter argument has been ‘ oh all these websites are dubious and there’s not really a civil war going on in Ukraine and Russia is the enemy and Putin is a tyrant and let me see what else did the US government tell me on tv’. Oops, when you open your brainwashed eyes, the pictures you have drawn up in your head don’t match what has actually happened but either way it’s not as if you are going to care.

You have presented NO FACTS at all. Now please show me the ACTUAL PROOF that the US funded the party you keep harping on about.

BTW you also ignore the FACT that there is only one country providing arms, mercenaries and troops at the moment who have real blood on their hands and who are driving a war in a neighbouring country.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

gandalf

BTW it is hardly surprising that from Russia at least there is no questioning by the general population given the restrictions the few remaining independent news organsations operate under. Here are the latest examples of media freedom in Mother Russia.

The Moscow Times has been hacked for the second time in as many months, with attackers succeeding in briefly taking down the website that has been criticised by pro-Kremlin commenters.
......

But the newspaper’s coverage has drawn criticism from pro-Kremlin pundits in recent months as tensions have risen between Russia and the west. Writing in the newspaper Izvestia in December, Russian columnist Israel Shamir, who has previously praised Moscow for standing up to “US hegemony”, accused The Moscow Times of being a “militant anti-Putin paper, a digest for the western press that covers events in Russia, a ‘country of chaos,’ extremely tendentiously.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/05/russia-moscow-times-cyber-attack

Tomsk-based station TV-2 will no longer screen on television after its broadcast license expired Sunday, indefinitely cutting one of Russia's last independent stations from cable packages.

The shutdown of TV-2 — an award-winning broadcaster and one of Russia's oldest independent television stations — had prompted protests in Tomsk and in Moscow, with demonstrators urging the government to reverse what critics said was part of a broader crackdown on independent media.

Tomsk's state-run broadcasting center took TV-2 off terrestrial television on Jan. 1, but it was still available on some cable packages until the government's media watchdog Roskomnadzor decided not to renew the station's license, which expired Sunday.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/independent-television-station-tv-2-taken-off-air-in-tomsk/515593.html

As I said I can understand the general population of Russia being duped to a degree by the "Official" line. What I can't really logically understand is how people outside of Russia can be taken in by the absolute fantasy being generated by the Kremlin Propaganda Offices?

What's going on in Russia at the moment reminds me of this peom by Martin Niemöller.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

robindch

conditioned games wrote: »

The links from various websites are all valid.

The links might be valid, but the content is juvenile poppycock that a well-educated child could (and can) see through.

conditioned games wrote: »

They are considered dubious and untrue from you because they highlight what has happened in Ukraine in late 2013 and early 2014 which conflicts with the American version that there was a peaceful transition of government and now Russia wants to take over Eastern Europe.

I'll try to break down this into small pieces:

• "America" has not said that there was a peaceful transition of government.
• Lots of pictures and video suggest that it was actually quite violent.
• I happen to agree with that, since I saw the violence myself.
• "America" has not said that "Russia wants to take over Eastern Europe".
• Though if Russia wants to avoid giving the impression that it's interested in military conquest, then Putin could perhaps stop sending his military into neighbouring countries to murder their inhabitants and perhaps he could also avoid declaring the existence of unstable vassal states run by criminals.

The rest of your silly post has been rebutted a thousand times before, so no point in wasting any further pixels or time on it.

conditioned games

I see Job Biden’s drug addict son Hunter Biden was appointed to the Board of Ukraine’s largest gas producer, Burisma Ltd after he was kicked out of the Navy. Well done USA, spend $5 billion in a foreign country to change a government funding nazi organizations, creating the foundations of a civil war and then their leaders send their off spring in to enrich their pockets. Joe Biden and the rest of the US government are now seeking new business in Ukraine for their weapons manufacturing sponsors to fund their next propaganda lies while innocent Ukrainians on the ground pay for the USA’s corrupt grip on world affairs. Again the tv zombies in the west will dismiss this, turning a blind eye and repeat what Biden, John Kerry or the rest of the US crew tells them.



http://www.wsj.com/articles/bidens-son-hunter-discharged-from-navy-reserve-after-failing-cocaine-test-1413499657

BoJack Horseman

conditioned games wrote: »

I see Job Biden’s drug addict son Hunter Biden was appointed to the Board of Ukraine’s largest gas producer, Burisma Ltd after he was kicked out of the Navy. Well done USA, spend $5 billion in a foreign country to change a government funding nazi organizations, creating the foundations of a civil war and then their leaders send their off spring in to enrich their pockets. Joe Biden and the rest of the US government are now seeking new business in Ukraine for their weapons manufacturing sponsors to fund their next propaganda lies while innocent Ukrainians on the ground pay for the USA’s corrupt grip on world affairs. Again the tv zombies in the west will dismiss this, turning a blind eye and repeat what Biden, John Kerry or the rest of the US crew tells them.

Incredible post!

Such naked, concentrated agenda waving is relatively rare even here.

Rationality be damned

Scofflaw

conditioned games wrote: »

I see Job Biden’s drug addict son Hunter Biden was appointed to the Board of Ukraine’s largest gas producer, Burisma Ltd after he was kicked out of the Navy. Well done USA, spend $5 billion in a foreign country to change a government funding nazi organizations, creating the foundations of a civil war and then their leaders send their off spring in to enrich their pockets. Joe Biden and the rest of the US government are now seeking new business in Ukraine for their weapons manufacturing sponsors to fund their next propaganda lies while innocent Ukrainians on the ground pay for the USA’s corrupt grip on world affairs. Again the tv zombies in the west will dismiss this, turning a blind eye and repeat what Biden, John Kerry or the rest of the US crew tells them.

I think we can live without this kind of "sheeple" nonsense - it does nothing for us, it does nothing for your post, it does not follow forum guidelines.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Icepick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_LCQMuWpoo

woodrow wyatt

Its a false flag attack.
The kiev junta fired on their own people and tried to blame the rebels.
Unfortunately for them not all of the missiles exploded on impact, these missiles now stick out of the ground and show where they where fired from.
They where launched from inside junta controlled territory, at least 35km from rebel areas.

dragon-first-1.livejournal.com/21688.html

google translated
translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdragon-first-1.livejournal.com%2F21688.html&edit-text=

The kiev junta must be getting desperate if they stoop this low.

Shurimgreat

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Its a false flag attack.
The kiev junta fired on their own people and tried to blame the rebels.
Unfortunately for them not all of the missiles exploded on impact, these missiles now stick out of the ground and show where they where fired from.
They where launched from inside junta controlled territory, at least 35km from rebel areas.

dragon-first-1.livejournal.com/21688.html

google translated
translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdragon-first-1.livejournal.com%2F21688.html&edit-text=

The kiev junta must be getting desperate if they stoop this low.

When you speak of kiev junta and false flag attak, we immediately know you are just parrotting Russian propaganda which carries next to no credibility here.

Shurimgreat

Ever wonder why on some social media and newspaper websites, most of the comments are pro russian?

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/10/russias-online-comment-propaganda-army/280432/

You can thank the St. Petersburg Internet Research Agency.

woodrow wyatt

Shurimgreat wrote: »

When you speak of kiev junta and false flag attak, we immediately know you are just parrotting Russian propaganda which carries next to no credibility here.

Who is we?

Well they are a junta, they are conscripting Ukrainian citizens for a war which they do not want.

"Ruslan Kotsaba posted a video addressed to the Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, last week in which he said he would rather go to prison for five years for draft-dodging than fight pro-Russia rebels in the country’s east. Now he faces 15 years in jail after being arrested for treason and obstructing the military."
theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/10/ukraine-draft-dodgers-jail-kiev-struggle-new-fighters

Does that sound like a democracy to you?

InTheTrees

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Does that sound like a democracy to you?

Yes. It sounds like a country under attack.

Many countries (russia included) have conscription of young men even when they're NOT under attack.

InTheTrees

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Ever wonder why on some social media and newspaper websites, most of the comments are pro russian?

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/10/russias-online-comment-propaganda-army/280432/

You can thank the St. Petersburg Internet Research Agency.

Fascinating. Thankfully Boards.ie isnt high on their target list because we only seem to get the noob intern trolls here...



"But some Russian opposition journalists point out that this trolling creates a chilling effect on the few independent media outlets that remain in the country. Finding themselves drowned out by paid propagandists, as opposition activist Vladimir Volokhonsky told the St. Petersburg Times, everyday readers stop responding to news articles entirely:

“The effect created by such Internet trolls is not very big, but they manage to make certain forums meaningless because people stop commenting on the articles when these trolls sit there and constantly create an aggressive, hostile atmosphere toward those whom they don’t like. These include commentary systems on the web sites of every major media outlet in the city that the trolls began to occupy a long time ago and react to certain news with torrents of mud and abuse. This makes it meaningless for a reasonable person to comment on anything there.”

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

DavidRamsay99

Everybody knew there was always going to be some sort of partition of Ukraine.
After all for several years there was a defacto partition when the country became divided according to ethnic, religious and political lines.
Over the past few days there has been a surface game of bluff with Obama open to providing weapons to the Ukrainian military and Merkel opposing it while Russia continued to deny they were funneling men, equipment and weapons to the rebels.
We know that the sanctions have been biting Russia harming Putin, that the oil price is plummeting because the Arab allies of the US opened the taps, and Europe is anxious that a Russian decline will have a knock on effect toward the Eurozone, that Russia was behind the rise of the Greek left, that Iran has taken advantage of the crisis to support a Houthis Shiite uprising and take over of Yemen, that there needs to be greater co-operation between Russia and the US over the ISIS problem, that the Democrats do not want the Ukraine crisis dragging on and giving a boost to the Republicans, that there is a British general election looming etc etc.
Everybody wants this conflict over so they will cut a deal to get this monkey off their backs.

gandalf

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

Everybody knew there was always going to be some sort of partition of Ukraine.
After all for several years there was a defacto partition when the country became divided according to ethnic, religious and political lines.
Over the past few days there has been a surface game of bluff with Obama open to providing weapons to the Ukrainian military and Merkel opposing it while Russia continued to deny they were funneling men, equipment and weapons to the rebels.
We know that the sanctions have been biting Russia harming Putin, that the oil price is plummeting because the Arab allies of the US opened the taps, and Europe is anxious that a Russian decline will have a knock on effect toward the Eurozone, that Russia was behind the rise of the Greek left, that Iran has taken advantage of the crisis to support a Houthis Shiite uprising and take over of Yemen, that there needs to be greater co-operation between Russia and the US over the ISIS problem, that the Democrats do not want the Ukraine crisis dragging on and giving a boost to the Republicans, that there is a British general election looming etc etc.
Everybody wants this conflict over so they will cut a deal to get this monkey off their backs.

If this is a "Peace in our time" moment then we will see a far greater problem down the line.

If there isn't maintenance of the international and sovereign borders of the Ukraine then the country will be cannibalised and this whole festering situation will just pop up again.

DavidRamsay99

gandalf wrote: »

If this is a "Peace in our time" moment then we will see a far greater problem down the line.

If there isn't maintenance of the international and sovereign borders of the Ukraine then the country will be cannibalised and this whole festering situation will just pop up again.

Western leaders are feeling confident that Putin has learned his lesson from the effects of the sanctions that this should be his final land grab in Europe...for the moment...They'll worry about what he does next when it happens.

Lemming

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

Western leaders are feeling confident that Putin has learned his lesson from the effects of the sanctions that this should be his final land grab in Europe...for the moment...They'll worry about what he does next when it happens.

He has already made noises about the Balkan states and "protecting" ethnic Russian minorities. The irony is of course, that his actions in the Ukraine will (if not already) lead to a hardening of attitudes towards Russians in former satellite states - whom already have no particular love for their former masters.

He is going to keep prodding to see how far he can go before he gets a very, very negative reaction and a broken nose.

DavidRamsay99

Lemming wrote: »

He has already made noises about the Balkan states and "protecting" ethnic Russian minorities. The irony is of course, that his actions in the Ukraine will (if not already) lead to a hardening of attitudes towards Russians in former satellite states - whom already have no particular love for their former masters.

He is going to keep prodding to see how far he can go before he gets a very, very negative reaction and a broken nose.

Putin has let the world see his cards at this stage. He's not stupid so I think he knows where to stop. He got what he wanted - the Crimea which is a solidly Russian region while Luhansk and Donetsk are going to get regional autonomy. Russia historically has always sought to have buffer zones on its borders. The writing is on the wall for the Ukrainian government who will probably given a generous international financial package as compensation.

woodrow wyatt

Already the tide of opinion is turning in Europe, people are seeing through the anti Russian propaganda.
On German Tv EU Parliament President Martin Schulz Stated "The US should keep out of the Ukraine conflict", he called it a civil war and the EU should not get involved.
More and more people are coming to see it this way, stay the hell out of it and the the Ukrainians sort out their own mess.

The USA was excluded from the peace talks and we see the results , France,Germany and Russia have got the result the world wanted,Peace.

Lemming

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Already the tide of opinion is turning in Europe, people are seeing through the anti Russian propaganda.
On German Tv EU Parliament President Martin Schulz Stated "The US should keep out of the Ukraine conflict", he called it a civil war and the EU should not get involved.
More and more people are coming to see it this way, stay the hell out of it and the the Ukrainians sort out their own mess.

The USA was excluded from the peace talks and we see the results , France,Germany and Russia have got the result the world wanted,Peace.

Meanwhile on planet Earth ... the EU has gotten involved. The US has gotten involved, albeit in a supporting role, allowing European countries take the lead in efforts to resolve the crisis.

One politician - who has a history of calling for pursuing exclusion of the US - does not a sea-change in opinion make. Further, there is no peace yet, and it remains to be seen whether or not any such agreement is abided by. After all, the rebels adhered so well to the Minsk agreement.

woodrow wyatt

Obama and Cameron where not invited, don't invite trouble makers when you try to hammer out a peace deal.
If you know anything about Merkel you will know she is a survivor, very good at judging the political winds.
Hollande is running low in the polls and has hitched his wagon onto Merkel, to try and get on the winning team.
It looks like Merkel has decided to make a break from USA policy and to save her own neck, the USA led actions against Russia have only hurt the EU.
Sanctions will be dropped and trade with Russia will resume, if anything it will draw Russia and the EU closer together, the EU now realise it will benefit greatly by ignoring the warmongering of the USA.
The USA has lost big, its puppet government in Kiev has basically agreed to federation of the county by another name, the Donbass gets its own government and law while the Kiev junta will be paying for it.
I fear the USA backed Junta will try and scupper the deal, lets hope they don't succeed.

aloyisious

Lol at the mentioned notion of U.N. Peacekeepers going in as a "keep them apart and relieve them of weaponry if they try to cross U.N imposed borders/neutral zone" force between both sides. No knowledge of the territory, not enough time to identify same, no "there is the fixed border and crossing points". There is to be at least a week before the cease-fire comes live, so territory-snatching through "reconaissance-in-force or re-supply/fortifying fixed positions" moves can go ahead by both sides military forces. I can see snipers and forward observers fixing posts and supply/retreat-routes freely in the mean-time. Then there's the mobile artillery and armoured forces, fly-bases, repair of bases moves as well in that time. The debate in the UN Security Council, general assembly & secretariat will be fun, plus getting countries to "volunteer" their citizen-soldiery for the job.

Lemming

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Obama and Cameron where not invited, don't invite trouble makers when you try to hammer out a peace deal.
If you know anything about Merkel you will know she is a survivor, very good at judging the political winds.
Hollande is running low in the polls and has hitched his wagon onto Merkel, to try and get on the winning team.
It looks like Merkel has decided to make a break from USA policy and to save her own neck, the USA led actions against Russia have only hurt the EU.
Sanctions will be dropped and trade with Russia will resume, if anything it will draw Russia and the EU closer together, the EU now realise it will benefit greatly by ignoring the warmongering of the USA.
The USA has lost big, its puppet government in Kiev has basically agreed to federation of the county by another name, the Donbass gets its own government and law while the Kiev junta will be paying for it.
I fear the USA backed Junta will try and scupper the deal, lets hope they don't succeed.

is that you Uncle Vlad?

[MOD]Reminder: this is not the Café.[/MOD]

Lemming

aloyisious wrote: »

Lol at the mentioned notion of U.N. Peacekeepers going in as a "keep them apart and relieve them of weaponry if they try to cross U.N imposed borders/neutral zone" force between both sides. No knowledge of the territory, not enough time to identify same, no "there is the fixed border and crossing points". There is to be at least a week before the cease-fire comes live, so territory-snatching through "reconaissance-in-force or re-supply/fortifying fixed positions" moves can go ahead by both sides military forces. I can see snipers and forward observers fixing posts and supply/retreat-routes freely in the mean-time. Then there's the mobile artillery and armoured forces, fly-bases, repair of bases moves as well in that time. The debate in the UN Security Council, general assembly & secretariat will be fun, plus getting countries to "volunteer" their citizen-soldiery for the job.

The UN wont go in unless its' a peace-enforcing mandate and even then few countries would agree to it because the whole scenario is ill-defined and risks a third-party being sucked in. There's also the question of who would be acceptable to both sides whilst being able to wield a stick large enough to enforce with? Any force from Western Europe or NATO? Nope? Nope. Russian? forget it. China? wont do it, etc.

And in any case the Russians would veto that proposal anyway.