Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

WakeUp

Barry Hussein , peace maker , is sending his tankbusters to Europe. his diplomats wont show up to peace talks but he will send his fighter jets. so if the Germans cant stop the US drive toward war in Europe for their own geopolitical reasons and self interests then who exactly will.

US Sends "Tankbuster" Jets To Europe Over Russia Fears After Germany Says "A Large Scale War Could Develop"

Karl-Georg Wellmann, a lawmaker in Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union has warned that, despite its efforts to avoid arms being provided to Ukraine, Germany "will no longer be able to stop weapons deliveries from from the U.S. and Canada." Almost too coincidental to these comments, CNN reports, the U.S. Air Force is sending its A-10 "tankbusters" back to Europe in order to "increase rotational presence in Europe to reassure our allies and partner nations that our commitment to European security is a priority." As Wellmann ominously concludes, seemingly confirming Putin's warning yesterday that if Kiev aims at a military solution, war will never end, "a large-scale war could develop out of that."

As Bloomberg reports, Germany May Be Unable to Stop Weapons to Ukraine, Lawmaker Says

Karl-Georg Wellmann, a lawmaker in Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union and chairman of the German-Ukrainian parliamentary group, tells newspaper Tagesspiegel that Germany won’t be able to halt U.S. weapons deliveries to Ukraine to fight Russian-supported separatists.

"We will no longer be able to stop weapons deliveries from from the U.S. and Canada" after rebel gains in the strategic town of Debaltseve in eastern Ukraine, Wellmann tells Tagesspiegel in interview

"A large-scale war could develop out of that," Wellmann says

Wellmann says further economic sanctions against Russia are "unavoidable," Tagesspiegel says

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-18/us-sends-tankbuster-jets-europe-over-russia-fears-after-germany-says-large-scale-war

Shurimgreat

If Kiev aims for a military solution on its own territory its damned. If they don't resist militarily the little green men just annex most of eastern Ukraine. Some choices they have there!

Russia doesn't fear the Europeans. They do fear the Americans.

Elmer Blooker

WakeUp wrote: »

Barry Hussein , peace maker , is sending his tankbusters to Europe. his diplomats wont show up to peace talks but he will send his fighter jets. so if the Germans cant stop the US drive toward war in Europe for their own geopolitical reasons and self interests then who exactly will.

I think this escalation by the US is more directed at Merkel than Putin. She wants a political solution and the lifting of sanctions which are hurting the German economy and also the EU. As I said earlier today European farmers/ fruit and veg growers will all want to be compensated and there won't be enough to go around as the EU is performing poorly.
The message is very clear - no lifting of sanctions which will please most of the posters on this forum but the EU is digging it's own grave!

woodrow wyatt

The big rumours flying around are that Poroshenko has evacuated his family from Kiev to Germany earlier in the week and has now been copied by other members of the Junta.
The fear is the Right Sector are spitting fire and are going to stage another coup,
Interesting times, if another coup happens will the EU/US support it or will it give them a good excuse to drop support and save face?

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Kaliningrad was NOT unilaterally annexed by Russia / Soviet Union, it was ceded to them by an agreement between the Allies at the Potsdam Conference.

What exactly do you mean by overwhelming numbers of Ukrainian people?
The maps clearly show that Russians are in the majority.

Russians make up less than 24% of the population of Ukraine you know this .
So how does 24% that's just population not eligible voters hold a majority against 70+ percent of the Ukrainian population .

Russian controlled corruption at its finest

Fiery mutant

The West needs to end this charade, and do it now. The separatists and Russia totally ignored the ceasefire, picking and choosing what they wanted and ignoring everything else that was agreed upon. So if they are going to act in that way, then it needs to be shown that this is a two way street.

Shurimgreat

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

The big rumours flying around are that Poroshenko has evacuated his family from Kiev to Germany earlier in the week and has now been copied by other members of the Junta.
The fear is the Right Sector are spitting fire and are going to stage another coup,
Interesting times, if another coup happens will the EU/US support it or will it give them a good excuse to drop support and save face?

Link? Source?
Oh I forgot you don't do those! Just deal in rumours and gossip. Like your rumours about the Indian fighter jet deal. Things must be getting desperate in your HQ!

Brussels Sprout

In this week's Economist they mentioned Russia's soft power diplomacy. Specifically mentioned was RTV and also the small army of cyber warriors sent to spread pro-Kremlin messages on western internet sites.

What's the formula for generating usernames guys? Pick out a first name from history or an old TV show or cartoon and attach it to a similar surname?

WakeUp

Shurimgreat wrote: »

If Kiev aims for a military solution on its own territory its damned. If they don't resist militarily the little green men just annex most of eastern Ukraine. Some choices they have there!

Russia doesn't fear the Europeans. They do fear the Americans.

these are your little green men. when they arrived on the scene the Ukrainians stood around in Crimea sh1tting themselves with good reason too. they didnt even have to do anything just stand there looking badass .do you honestly believe there is a Ukrainian military solution to what is happening? Crimea is gone forever as far as the Russians are concerned. and the rebels held areas appear the same way. do you think Ukraine on its own with its conscripts and demoralised army is capable of forcibly removing them from the south / east and Russia directly from Crimea?. if the rebels look like remotely being routed than these guys will cross the border you think conscripts and such are any match for them they just arent. thats a fight Ukraine on its own can never win unfortunately for them. there is no military solution.

NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlkOrsiTgBA

Fiery mutant wrote: »

The West needs to end this charade, and do it now. The separatists and Russia totally ignored the ceasefire, picking and choosing what they wanted and ignoring everything else that was agreed upon. So if they are going to act in that way, then it needs to be shown that this is a two way street.

How do you propose the west ends this charade? by arming the Ukrainians? or getting involved directly and going to war with Russia? right so we know sanctions are in play and such that aside what would be your plan?...

The United States is on a dangerous trajectory in its relations with Russia, a nuclear superpower that believes itself to be under direct threat. Several former U.S. officials and top think-tank experts released a report calling on the West to provide military support to Ukraine. (Two of them, our colleagues at the Brookings Institution, expanded on the report a week ago on this page [“Ukraine needs the West’s help now”].) The logic of sending weapons to Ukraine seems straightforward and is the same as the logic for economic sanctions: to change Vladi­mir Putin’s “calculus.” Increasing the Ukrainian army’s fighting capacity, the thinking goes, would allow it to kill more rebels and Russian soldiers, generating a backlash in Russia and ultimately forcing the Russian president to the negotiating table.

We strongly disagree. The evidence points in a different direction. If we follow the recommendations of this report, the Ukrainians won’t be the only ones caught in an escalating military conflict with Russia.

In the jargon of geopolitics, Putin enjoys “escalation dominance” in Ukraine: Whatever move we make, he can match it and go further. In August, when it looked as though Ukraine might rout the rebels, Putin increased the stakes and countered the Ukrainian military. Drawing on those lessons, some Russian security analysts are now pushing for a preemptive invasion of Ukraine, arguing that Russia should go all the way to Kiev before the West takes further action. One recent such plan suggested that Moscow was losing momentum in the conflict and should not waste more time on fruitless negotiations. The Western press coverage of the issue of lethal weapons can only convince those in Moscow pushing “full war and invasion now” that their approach is correct.

We also must consider the effect that arming Ukraine would have on our European allies. The report has created an uproar in Berlin and other European capitals, stoking concern that the Obama administration will take steps others are not ready for. If Putin concludes that transatlantic unity can be shattered, with the United States facing the possibility of going it alone in Ukraine, why would he change course?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/giving-weapons-to-ukraine-could-goad-putin-into-a-regional-war/2015/02/05/ec2e9680-abf5-11e4-ad71-7b9eba0f87d6_story.html

Fiery mutant

To answer your question, yes, I would offer arms to Ukraine. I believe it is the right thing to do. Ukraine and any other country on the border with those physcho's has the right to self determination. Just because Putin doesn't believe so does not make him right. Putin is a bully and nothing more. He has a mindset long abandoned by rational people the world over, and he is a threat to those around him, and not just bordering countries, but those in his own.

He pretends to be a man of the people, strutting around without his shirt on like some 12 year old boy shoŵing off to his friends, I mean seriously WTF? The whole world is laughing at him.

But even outside of the arming question, I believe the sanctions needs to be ramped up massively. Remove them from the swift banking system, France should cancel the Mistral deal, Ukraine should cut cut all aid to those areas held by the separatists, let them have their 'own land' if they want it, they can fend for themselves too.

Elmer Blooker

Gatling wrote: »

Russians make up less than 24% of the population of Ukraine you know this .
So how does 24% that's just population not eligible voters hold a majority against 70+ percent of the Ukrainian population .

Russian controlled corruption at its finest

Not sure what you are saying to be honest?
The Scottish independence referendum last year didn't include about 90% of the population of the UK who are English but it was a legitimate referendum that could have (but didn't) led to the break up of the UK.

<snip: PM'd>

woodrow wyatt

Some here believe Putin will back down, not a chance.
https://thepatriotperspective.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/putin-vs-obama.jpg
http://theblacksphere.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Stranahan-on-Obama-v-Putin-e1394082544407.jpg
http://www.bookwormroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Putin-v-Obama.jpg

MOD: See below in-thread warning.

Gatling

So we had a coup paid for by the cia by a population of Ukrainians who want to be ukraine EU state .
Who happen to make up the majority of there country's population .
And have been repeatedly governed by a pro russian puppet government's while only making up 23/24 % of the population whom are ethnic russians.

Now maths wouldn't be my strongest subject but how does 24 % have more control over a sovereign country where 70% of a population is ethnic Ukrainian

Black Swan

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Some here believe Putin will back down, not a chance.
https://thepatriotperspective.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/putin-vs-obama.jpg
http://theblacksphere.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Stranahan-on-Obama-v-Putin-e1394082544407.jpg
http://www.bookwormroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Putin-v-Obama.jpg

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

What are you on about?

This sh*t is catnip to the bots, they love it!



All hail.

Failure to salivate makes you a US imperialist!

MOD: This is Politics and has discussion standards. If you want to post low standard links or pics such as this, you may consider doing so in Politics Café, not here.

Black Swan

MOD: LOCKED. Thread pending review.

Scofflaw

Thread reopened, but alas without woodrow wyatt, who very consistently championed the minority pro-Russian position, but was unable to improve his posting to required standards despite that advantage.

moderately,
Scofflaw

KELTICKNIGHTT

They way things are going America will get involved as russia won't stop as Germany and rest don't have guts too peace talks don't work when you have liers like Russia and Russia separates aa can't believe anything they say so America support to Ukraine is needed and way things are going will happen sooner or later

BoJack Horseman

Well, trusting the word of Putin to make peace, a man without an honourable bone in his body was as stupid as it was predictable.

Minsk v2.0 was gave him immediate notice that he can step it up at will & Europe will genuflect.

The decision taken at the NATO summit in June for the UK & US to let Germany & France manage negotiations was also equally naieve.
Hollande isn't a statesman, more concerned domestically & whose bed he will be in that night.
Germany is no stronger militarily than Portugal and Putin knows Merkel enough to know she has no intention of standing tough.

gandalf

Absolutely, the worry correctly is now that Putin will use these same tried and tested tactics with the Baltic states.

There is a "real and present danger" of Russia trying to destabilise the Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, the UK defence secretary says.

Michael Fallon said he was worried about "pressure" from Russian President Vladimir Putin on the ex-Soviet states, which are Nato members.

Russia might use tactics there similar to those it used in Ukraine, he said.

......

He said Russia was likely to use covert tactics like those he said it used to annex Crimea and in the current Ukraine conflict.

Russia has denied helping pro-Russian separatists, but it has been repeatedly accused of sending weapons and troops and using propaganda to inflame tensions.

......

Mr Cameron said: "Those Russian-backed rebels in eastern Ukraine, they are using Russian rocket launchers, Russian tanks, Russian artillery.

"You can't buy this equipment on eBay, it hasn't come from somewhere else, it's come from Russia and we know that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31528981

So what now. The Minsk 2.0 agreement has been torn up and spat on by Russia. It is time to ramp up sanctions. It is time to arm the remainder of the Ukraine and to invest so they can modernise their economy and turn away from Russia. It is time for the EU and the US to push back and support the Ukraine.

Personally I will be ensuring I do not buy any Russian products, I don't think I buy any but I will be checking to ensure I don't. Anyone who is against the actions of the Russian regime should do them same.

Morpheus

agreed on not buying russian

BoJack Horseman

What Russian goods are sold here?

I don't think I've ever noticed any?

gandalf

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

What Russian goods are sold here?

I don't think I've ever noticed any?

Of the top 100 Kaspersky is the only one I know.

http://www.slideshare.net/melnikpavel/ru-brand2010eng

I am also aware of Zvezda model kits.

FTA69

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

There are still some serious questions about the Ukrainian regime and those fighting for them. I think Putin's a bollix to be honest, but it's far from a simple case of goodies and baddies.

Ren2k7

gandalf wrote: »

Absolutely, the worry correctly is now that Putin will use these same tried and tested tactics with the Baltic states.



http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31528981

So what now. The Minsk 2.0 agreement has been torn up and spat on by Russia. It is time to ramp up sanctions. It is time to arm the remainder of the Ukraine and to invest so they can modernise their economy and turn away from Russia. It is time for the EU and the US to push back and support the Ukraine.

Personally I will be ensuring I do not buy any Russian products, I don't think I buy any but I will be checking to ensure I don't. Anyone who is against the actions of the Russian regime should do them same.

Expect to see Putin try and attempt some sort of psy-ops in the Baltics in the coming months to test NATO's response. What NATO needs to be doing right now is building permanent bases right on the border between the Baltic states and Russia, housing entire US armoured divisions. The sort that once protected the Fulda Gap during the Cold War. And deploy the missile shield in the 04 accession states.

Finally Ireland needs to begin the debate on our own "neutrality". Either we formally enshrine it in our constitution (and therefore take seriously our own defence) or we finally acknowledge we cannot fully look after our own territorial defence and therefore opt to join NATO and allow other members to assist in our defence needs (like Iceland and the Baltic states).

Ren2k7

FTA69 wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

There are still some serious questions about the Ukrainian regime and those fighting for them. I think Putin's a bollix to be honest, but it's far from a simple case of goodies and baddies.

Yes the "Azov Battalion" are complete headcases. But unfortunately Ukraine is left with no choice but to allow them to fight on their side. They're at war with Russia and can't afford to be choosy about who volunteers to fight on the frontlines.

Also they have been quite an effective fighting force, pushing back their equally fascistic Russian foes about 20KM east towards the Russian border and gave the residents of Mariupol some relief from constant rocket and artillery bombardment.

Lockstep

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Crimea is almost entirely Russian speaking. They voted Yanukovich and rejected the coup. They don't want to be ruled by mobs of extreme Ukrainian nationalists from Kiev.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed-en.png/1024px-UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed-en.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Другий_тур_2010_по_округах-en.png/1024px-Другий_тур_2010_по_округах-en.png

Crimea is primarily Russian speaking because it was annexed by Russia in the past, its native population ethnically cleansed in 1944 and Russians encouraged to move there.

stevedublin wrote: »

So your solution is to give Crimea to Turkey then?

No because Turkey isn't the Ottoman Empire. My point is that Russia's claims that Crimea has always been Russian are utterly bogus.

naughto

Its time to stop fighting with pen and paper aka peace talks because there not worth the dam.
And send in the troops to help ukraine

KELTICKNIGHTT

Only country russia is afraid of is america , not sure if nato has the bottle to do anything , so far from nato only talk and no action. germany only worried about its profits from russia like france is so they a waste of hot air

Gatling

If I remember correctly the russian government requested Latvia and Lithuania hand over former russian army conscripts who walked away from the russian army when they broke away .
To face trials for desertion.

I think I previously posted a link ages ago ,
If not I'll post later when back at home

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21638345-russia-wants-prosecute-former-deserters-army-country-no-longer-exists-going-after

http://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-seeks-investigation-of-lithuanian-red-army-deserter-1410191086

Fratton Fred

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

Only country russia is afraid of is america , not sure if nato has the bottle to do anything , so far from nato only talk and no action. germany only worried about its profits from russia like france is so they a waste of hot air

Would you propose an eu battle group be sent in then?