Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Ren2k7

gandalf wrote: »

Looks like the Ukrainians are hinting that the killings were directed from Russia alright.



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31548896

And it looks like the ousted Ukrainians have been well rewarded by Moscow for their role in the set up.



http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ousted-ukraine-officials-enjoy-life-of-luxury-in-moscow/516264.html

I'm shocked so I am. :pac:

As for the Maidan massacre that was a FSB led operation, operated out of the HQ of the Ukrainian SBU, the predecessor of the KGB in the country.

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

Looks like the Ukrainians are hinting that the killings were directed from Russia alright.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31548896

And it looks like the ousted Ukrainians have been well rewarded by Moscow for their role in the set up.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ousted-ukraine-officials-enjoy-life-of-luxury-in-moscow/516264.html

taken from the BBC link...

Mr Poroshenko said on Friday that phone records obtained by Ukrainian state security showed a direct Russian state role in the shootings. Those records, he said, revealed "conversations between Yanukovych and Russian state security officials.

"They prepared for the shooting together, in advance."

Russia's foreign ministry spokesman, Alexander Lukashevich, said Mr Poroshenko had been duped by his security aides.

"Ukraine's investigative and security services have things to be getting on with. But at the moment, instead of carrying out investigations, they're exploiting people's deaths and putting out nonsense worthy only of a mental hospital," he said.

Poroshenko is of course going to produce these recordings to back up what he is claiming. and not just a documented record of a phone call between some people. will be interesting to hear what is on those tapes. he has the recordings I assume.

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

Looks like the Ukrainians are hinting that the killings were directed from Russia alright.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31548896

How very interesting that Poroshenko has waited a year and only decided to release this information to coincide with the first anniversary of the .... popular spontaneous uprising?
Also interesting to note that only yesterday the BBC were reporting that the Baltic Republics were in imminent danger of Russian "aggression".
I would have thought if any EU / NATO member was under threat or in danger of attack it would be a very serious international incident and major news so why has this "story" completely disappeared from the headlines within 24 hours?
I notice that yesterday's Irish Times reliable source for the Maidan killings was Andriy Paruiby founder of this party.
"Paruiby told the Irish Times"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social-National_Party_of_Ukraine

* That examiner.com site below looks like a very reliable and informative source I must say!
http://www.examiner.com/list/cabbage-republic-of-donbass-crimea-part-deux

Icepick

Dissecting the deception: anatomy of Russia’s propaganda in the West

Putin told the delegation of rabbis: “Unfortunately, just like 70 years ago, arrogance often achieves its goals. After all, Goebbels had said, “The more improbable the lie, the faster people believe it.” And he achieved his goals, he was a talented man.”

Western filmmakers used for Russian propaganda
...
In December 2014, Oliver Stone cozily drank tea with the murderous former dictator of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, who stole, transferred and squandered over $100 billion dollars from the country’s treasury. Stone proceeded to claim that Ukraine’s ‘Revolution of Dignity’ was just another CIA plot.
Celebrities used to promote Russian propaganda

Western whistleblowers and fake experts used in Russian propaganda
...
Whistleblowers and those labeled as “conspiracy theorists” are eternally grateful to the outlets like Russia Today for telling their stories. In return, they believe and share everything else spouted by the deceitful network. Appearances of real whistleblowers are interlaced with unhinged commentary from fake “experts” and random low-level workers formerly employed by the government.

Outlandish conspiracy theories featured in Russian propaganda
...
Russian propaganda takes their ploys to the extremes that would make Goebbels feel like an amateur. Kremlin’s media blames the United States for spreading AIDS and Ebola, invents crucified babies in Ukraine, resurrects dead people to heroically throw them under the tanks and disingenuously blames both the Ukrainian and the American governments for shooting down Malaysia flight MH17. The Kremlin employs hordes of English-speaking writers and Internet trolls to spread its propaganda in the West.

While the West naively looked the other way, Russia overloaded the world with the deluge of disinformation and propaganda.

And not just propaganda. The Kremlin has been funding and supporting various extremist groups and organization, mainly in post-communist countries. This ranges from Nazi skinheads parties like Jobbik in Hungary to various paramilitary organizations attracting white supremacists and religious fanatics.

Ren2k7

Icepick wrote: »

Dissecting the deception: anatomy of Russia’s propaganda in the West




And not just propaganda. The Kremlin has been funding and supporting various extremist groups and organization, mainly in post-communist countries. This ranges from Nazi skinheads parties like Jobbik in Hungary to various paramilitary organizations attracting white supremacists and religious fanatics.

And not forgetting the Kremlin funds anti fracking groups in the West as part of its agenda to stop Europe and the US becoming energy independent.

Lemming

TBH, Russia funding various fringe groups is nothing new. The former Soviet Union spent considerable time, effort, & money in attempts to sow discord or insurrection in countries around the world, ranging from backing the number of communist uprisings/wars across Asia throughout the 1950s-80s to funding for left-wing groups (Socialist parties, etc.) across Europe & N.America. Russia has been at this for decades.

karma_

Lemming wrote: »

TBH, Russia funding various fringe groups is nothing new. The former Soviet Union spent considerable time, effort, & money in attempts to sow discord or insurrection in countries around the world, ranging from backing the number of communist uprisings/wars across Asia throughout the 1950s-80s to funding for left-wing groups (Socialist parties, etc.) across Europe & N.America. Russia has been at this for decades.

Everybody has been at this for decades.

Scofflaw

Ren2k7 wrote: »

And not forgetting the Kremlin funds anti fracking groups in the West as part of its agenda to stop Europe and the US becoming energy independent.

Sources, for those who regard this as a conspiracy theory:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/19/russia-secretly-working-with-environmentalists-to-oppose-fracking

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/01/world/russian-money-suspected-behind-fracking-protests.html?_r=0

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/20201c36-f7db-11e3-baf5-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3SPByEjMm

Russian intelligence agencies are covertly funding and working with European environmental groups to campaign against fracking and maintain EU dependence on Russian gas, the head of Nato has claimed.

Answering questions after a speech in London, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Nato secretary-general, said improving European energy security was of the “utmost importance” and accused Moscow of “blackmail” in its dealings with Europe.

“I have met allies who can report that Russia, as part of their sophisticated information and disinformation operations, engaged actively with so-called non-governmental organisations – environmental organisations working against shale gas – to maintain European dependence on imported Russian gas,” Mr Rasmussen, former Danish prime minister, told an audience at Chatham House, the international affairs think-tank.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Elmer Blooker

Financial Times says: "NATO claims Moscow funding anti fracking groups"

The Guardian says this:

Nato's press office said the remarks were Rasmussen's personal views, not official policy.

In The NY Times article the Romanian mayor says this:

He acknowledged that he had no direct evidence to support this allegation, nor for an assertion he made recently in Parliament that Gazprom had spent 82 million euros, or about $100 million, to fund anti-fracking activities across Europe.

Ren2k7

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Financial Times says: "NATO claims Moscow funding anti fracking groups"

The Guardian says this:


In The NY Times article the Romanian mayor says this:

Ask yourself why Russian state media report extensively on anti fracking protests across Europe and the US, along with running anti fracking propaganda of their own; all the while staying perfectly silent on Russian energy firms laying waste to the Arctic and Siberia as they drill for oil and gas.

Ren2k7

Far left lunatics in hypocrisy shocker:

Stop Nato's War in Ukraine - Peace for the Donbass
Sunday 22 February • 12-1.30pm
Outside the US embassy
24 Grosvenor Square London W1A 2LQ

Organised by: Solidarity with Antifascist Resistance in Ukraine »
Facebook »

SARU is calling for a static protest at the US embassy in London on February 22 against plans by the US to arm Ukraine.

Supported by Stop the War Coalition.

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/events/other-anti-war-events/22-feb-london-protest-stop-nato-s-war-in-ukraine-peace-for-the-donbass

Apparently Russia arming these "rebels" is OK but one nation state arming another is "fascism". Hmm, remind me again what the now ironically named "Stop the War Coalition" said about the US arming Syrian rebels? I think this just proves once and for all that these left wing crusties don't care about stopping war, just the type being waged by the West. It wouldn't surprise me if Russia was funding these muppets.

gandalf

Unbelievable, where's the protest outside the Russian embassy since it became clear that they were flooding the region with weapons and men. As you say what a pack of hypocrites.

BoJack Horseman

The far-left in Europe has become so fanatically hateful of their own nations that they are happy to side with what should normally be their enemy.

Its why you see such fanatical support for islamism from socialist groups in the UK.

Its hardly surprising then that these poor delusioned souls now happily support Europe's most autocratic & right-wing government.

The enemy of my enemy etc.....

Ren2k7

The far left hates everything we stand for and would gladly die if Russia were to launch a full nuclear strike on the European Union and US. Their allegiances are to Russia and the Kremlin, not the countries which give them the freedom to spew their bigoted, toxic poison.

Shurimgreat

Ren2k7 wrote: »

The far left hates everything we stand for and would gladly die if Russia were to launch a full nuclear strike on the European Union and US. Their allegiances are to Russia and the Kremlin, not the countries which give them the freedom to spew their bigoted, toxic poison.

Indeed. If the far left could choose between the worst excesses of stalinism or modern democracy they would choose stalinism every time.

They are hopelessly naive.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Would you propose an eu battle group be sent in then?

its very clear that russia and its russian terrorists cant be trusted and these sanctions are not going to stop putin and his russian terriosts , so either nato steps in or you see america doing something, as it stands looks like in time america will do something soon if nato doesn't

KELTICKNIGHTT

Ren2k7 wrote: »

It's particularily disgusting the way France and Germany have behaved throughout this whole crisis. Their only concern has been about themselves and what's in their back pocket, not any desire to help fellow Europeans under direct threat from Russia. It's like as if the period 1945-1991 has suddenly been erased from the collective conscious of French and German politicians.

The Ukrainian Crisis, as it is now being called apparently (when it should be called the Ukraine-Russia War), is a game changer; no longer should the West try and pretend we can work with Russia and be their partner. They are our enemy. Always have been since the earliest days of the Russian Empire. We need to recognise this fact and treat them as such.

i agree, germany and france only looking after its financial interests with russia which russia using
its funny how russia giving arms and weapons to russian thugs but russia says america can't do same with Ukraine
maybe america should give support in same way as russia does

KELTICKNIGHTT

daUbiq wrote: »

Not necessarily in Ukraine, the US have a long history of interference...

so does russia if not more !

Ren2k7

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

i agree, germany and france only looking after its financial interests with russia which russia using
its funny how russia giving arms and weapons to russian thugs but russia says america can't do same with Ukraine
maybe america should give support in same way as russia does

I also find it nauseating that so called anti war activists support Russian aggression in Ukraine but scream about "fascism" when the US proposes sending arms to the Ukrainian state, a perfectly legal action unlike Russia arming these "rebels".

We've seen now the total hypocrisy of the "anti war" left and their double standards. Not once did they protest the Russian invasion of Georgia, nor did they protest when Assad declared war on his people.

Speaking of hypocrites does anyone remember the perennial electoral failure Eamonn McCann (a chap who thinks he has the exclusive right to speak on behave of Derry Nationalists despite never being elected to any sort of political office) state that if we must choose sides in the Ukraine conflict we should support Russia?!

https://www.facebook.com/irishtimes/posts/10152355994105955

Presumably if he supports Russia defending colonists in Ukraine he also supports the right of planters in NI.

They are pro Russia shills who have no problems with war if those waging it oppose their natural enemy: the United States.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Ren2k7 wrote: »

I also find it nauseating that so called anti war activists support Russian aggression in Ukraine but scream about "fascism" when the US proposes sending arms to the Ukrainian state, a perfectly legal action unlike Russia arming these "rebels".

We've seen now the total hypocrisy of the "anti war" left and their double standards. Not once did they protest the Russian invasion of Georgia, nor did they protest when Assad declared war on his people.

Speaking of hypocrites does anyone remember the perennial electoral failure Eamonn McCann (a chap who thinks he has the exclusive right to speak on behave of Derry Nationalists despite never being elected to any sort of political office) state that if we must choose sides in the Ukraine conflict we should support Russia?!

https://www.facebook.com/irishtimes/posts/10152355994105955

Presumably if he supports Russia defending colonists in Ukraine he also supports the right of planters in NI.

They are pro Russia shills who have no problems with war if those waging it oppose their natural enemy: the United States.

the russian thugs in ukraine are no better than isil in iraq , anyone who who supports them are no better
if these russians living in eastern coutries want to be russian so much the move back to russia and lick putins boots , its time nato and europe kept them at bay
most in eastern europe don't mind how but they need help not hot air and grow a pair.
putin and russia and followers are just control freaks and thugs who are no better than ussr time, nothing changed just different names same crap
i don't trust russians and putin as so far can't believe what they say.
it will come a stage were russia and its russian terrorists will be meet with same as they are giving we see who and when this year

Ren2k7

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

the russian thugs in ukraine are no better than isil in iraq , anyone who who supports them are no better
if these russians living in eastern coutries want to be russian so much the move back to russia and lick putins boots , its time nato and europe kept them at bay
most in eastern europe don't mind how but they need help not hot air and grow a pair.
putin and russia and followers are just control freaks and thugs who are no better than ussr time, nothing changed just different names same crap
i don't trust russians and putin as so far can't believe what they say.
it will come a stage were russia and its russian terrorists will be meet with same as they are giving we see who and when this year

Unfortunately no Western leader these days has the balls to stand up Russia, despite it being far weaker than its Soviet predecessor. Former Cold War leaders would be horrified to see current Western leaders pussyfooting around Putrid. Kennedy was prepared to risk WWIII and bomb Russian sites in Cuba in '62. What's Obama prepared to do to keep Europe safe? Send a few flak jackets and military rations to the Ukrainian Army? Christ almighty. We may as well start learning Russian at this stage.

Lemming

TBH, as much as I believe that Putin & Russia have behaved reprehensably and shown their colours as being deeply untrustworthy, I think trying to claim they're as bad as ISIS/ISIL/IS/Whatever-IS-this-week's-acryonym does this discussion a dis-service.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Lemming wrote: »

TBH, as much as I believe that Putin & Russia have behaved reprehensably and shown their colours as being deeply untrustworthy, I think trying to claim they're as bad as ISIS/ISIL/IS/Whatever-IS-this-week's-acryonym does this discussion a dis-service.

we all have our opinions thank god in free country
if you lived in russia you wouldn't be allowed to air them, you be locked up on made up charges

KELTICKNIGHTT

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Unfortunately no Western leader these days has the balls to stand up Russia, despite it being far weaker than its Soviet predecessor. Former Cold War leaders would be horrified to see current Western leaders pussyfooting around Putrid. Kennedy was prepared to risk WWIII and bomb Russian sites in Cuba in '62. What's Obama prepared to do to keep Europe safe? Send a few flak jackets and military rations to the Ukrainian Army? Christ almighty. We may as well start learning Russian at this stage.

europe are full of hot air lead by countries like germany and france who are more worried about there trade deals with russia

think america will supply ukraine in same way as russia supplys the russian terriosts in ukraine

russia will push this as far as they can till russia is stopped
As long as russia has russian muppets like in ukraine russia putin will keep doing , more sanctions won't stop putin and his muppets , only people how get hurt is poor people in ruusia who are brain washed

Ren2k7

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

we all have our opinions thank god in free country
if you lived in russia you wouldn't be allowed to air them, you be locked up on made up charges

Or worse murdered and then put on trial.....like that of prominent whistle blowing lawyer Sergei Magnitsky. Yes that is in the correct order, Magnitsky was murdered by Putin's henchmen and then he was posthumously put on trial for corruption. No word on whether they dug up his corpse and plopped it into the dock.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Or worse murdered and then put on trial.....like that of prominent whistle blowing lawyer Sergei Magnitsky. Yes that is in the correct order, Magnitsky was murdered by Putin's henchmen and then he was posthumously put on trial for corruption. No word on whether they dug up his corpse and plopped it into the dock.

russia like north Korea in way it handles people

WakeUp

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

the russian thugs in ukraine are no better than isil in iraq , anyone who who supports them are no better
if these russians living in eastern coutries want to be russian so much the move back to russia and lick putins boots , its time nato and europe kept them at bay
most in eastern europe don't mind how but they need help not hot air and grow a pair.
putin and russia and followers are just control freaks and thugs who are no better than ussr time, nothing changed just different names same crap
i don't trust russians and putin as so far can't believe what they say.
it will come a stage were russia and its russian terrorists will be meet with same as they are giving we see who and when this year

thats a nice rant. though youre not the only one at it here so no offence intended. why should people from other countries fight and die for Ukraine? why..and before you come back at me with some nonsense like "putin is going to invade Europe before moving on to the moon" spare me that will you. because thats just nonsense he isnt going to do that. as if he does that its nuclear war. as sure as night follows day. Im not sure which is the crazier idea that , Putin is about to invade Europe or Nato battalions in Ukraine on Russias border starting a war. I cant think of a a dumber thing to do than send Nato into Ukraine for a fight. if that happens hope you have your bunker built because youll need it. The French and Germans which Ive seen mentioned thankfully from out point of view ( Europe) are trying to counter the American push in some quarters to arm the Ukrainians/Nato involvement. thank god someone is. interesting piece Le Fiagro magazine over the weekend. a new axis perhaps - Berlin, Paris, Moscow as opposed to the anglo-American London, Washington. stranger things have happened.

Prominent French Journalist Calls For France-Germany-Russia Alliance

With the Ukraine civil war - courtesy of the constant prodding of the US State Department - inching ever closer to an all out military confrontation with Russia, and further escalation in terms of western sanctions on the Kremlin, as well as even more acute countermeasures and retaliation by Russia, increasingly more in Europe are asking themselves the question, if not in those exact words, "if the US said to **** the EU, then why should the EU allign with the US?"

One person doing just that is prominent and controversial French writer and political journalist Eric Zemmour, who on Friday said that France and Germany, following the historical tradition, should work on forming an alliance with Russia.

"NATO is doing its utmost to present Russia as an enemy of the West and thereby justify its existence," Zemmour wrote in Le Figaro Magazine. "Fortunately, France and Germany in due time blocked Ukraine’s accession to NATO, and that’s a positive fact," the journalist said.

"Now when they finally coordinated their positions on establishing relations with Moscow, they should not stop halfway and should move towards forming a tripartite alliance with Russia," he said, recalling numerous efforts in the past by "kings, emperors and presidents" of the three countries to set up such an alliance.

As further cited by Tass, such a bloc "will be the only chance for Europe to get rid of the United States protectorate and become, in the words of General de Gaulle, a ‘Free Europe’."

"An alliance with Russia is absolutely necessary to fight against Islamists in Syria, Libya, Iraq, Mali, Central African Republic, Nigeria, Pakistan and Afghanistan, where these extremists are trying not only to erase all the traces of a Western and Christian presence, but to pave the way for carrying the war into the European territory," Zemmour added.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-22/prominent-french-journalist-calls-france-germany-russia-alliance

KELTICKNIGHTT

WakeUp wrote: »

thats a nice rant. though youre not the only one at it here so no offence intended. why should people from other countries fight and die for Ukraine? why..and before you come back at me with some nonsense like "putin is going to invade Europe before moving on to the moon" spare me that will you. because thats just nonsense he isnt going to do that. as if he does that its nuclear war. as sure as night follows day. Im not sure which is the crazier idea that , Putin is about to invade Europe or Nato battalions in Ukraine on Russias border starting a war. I cant think of a a dumber thing to do than send Nato into Ukraine for a fight. if that happens hope you have your bunker built because youll need it. The French and Germans which Ive seen mentioned thankfully from out point of view ( Europe) are trying to counter the American push in some quarters to arm the Ukrainians/Nato involvement. thank god someone is. interesting piece Le Fiagro magazine over the weekend. a new axis perhaps - Berlin, Paris, Moscow as opposed to the anglo-American London, Washington. stranger things have happened.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-22/prominent-french-journalist-calls-france-germany-russia-alliance

its not all about ukraine
its about eastern europe , if you can't see or understand this then no one call explain to you
its all done by russia in back ground , were russia uses its muppets to gain
ukraine should be allowed to live in peace like others and bullied by russia and its russian muppets as other countries in eastern europe.
other countries in eastern europe are concerned
if nato did enter ukraine would only be in peacekeeping action which putin doesn't want because it would case him problems.
if you think this is a rant then any words or comments are wasted on you

Ren2k7

WakeUp wrote: »

thats a nice rant. though youre not the only one at it here so no offence intended. why should people from other countries fight and die for Ukraine? why..and before you come back at me with some nonsense like "putin is going to invade Europe before moving on to the moon" spare me that will you. because thats just nonsense he isnt going to do that. as if he does that its nuclear war. as sure as night follows day. Im not sure which is the crazier idea that , Putin is about to invade Europe or Nato battalions in Ukraine on Russias border starting a war. I cant think of a a dumber thing to do than send Nato into Ukraine for a fight. if that happens hope you have your bunker built because youll need it. The French and Germans which Ive seen mentioned thankfully from out point of view ( Europe) are trying to counter the American push in some quarters to arm the Ukrainians/Nato involvement. thank god someone is. interesting piece Le Fiagro magazine over the weekend. a new axis perhaps - Berlin, Paris, Moscow as opposed to the anglo-American London, Washington. stranger things have happened.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-22/prominent-french-journalist-calls-france-germany-russia-alliance

No, you don't completely discredit your post with a link to ZeroCred at all. None whatsoever. :rolleyes:

WakeUp

Ren2k7 wrote: »

No, you don't completely discredit your post with a link to ZeroCred at all. None whatsoever. :rolleyes:

What dont you take issue with the content of the link as opposed to the source?.,,why dont you try that. have a go.