Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Gatling

gandalf wrote: »

Well it's ok Putin says that war with Ukraine is "unlikely".



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31596634

Now given his utterances in the past I'd be very very nervous if I was the Ukrainian government.

Then again really they are at war with the Ukraine, they just aren't admitting it.

Must be thinking about some future conflict because he's already at war with Ukraine

blackwhite

Gatling wrote: »

Must be thinking about some future conflict because he's already at war with Ukraine

He probably talking about if/when he succeeds in re-instating some form of the Ukrainian SSR.

Ren2k7

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

A lot of the factories & raw materials were in Donetsk

The Ukrainian armed forces have been improvising new stuff & cannibalising old kit to keep going.

They are ridiculously out-tech'ed by the Russians.

If I was in any way conspiracy minded I'd be under no doubt those massive armaments factories and weapons design bureaus were only located in Eastern Ukraine by the Soviet High Command because of the large loyal ethnic Russian population there.....What am I saying, that's precisely why they located their arms facilities there! Hell only ethnic Russians were allowed to join the Soviet Strategic Rocket Forces (in charge of their land based ICBM forces).

In other news Lithuania is bringing back conscription citing Russia's increasingly belligerent behaviour.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0224/682408-ukraine/

Morpheus

Ukraine had the knowledge at some stage, they should start rebuilding long range missiles, even if only conventional and tell the soviets that next time they'll be strategically targeting terriroty both in Russia AND in the annexed crimean peninsula regardless of what the russians will do. and personally as a ukraine leader id be seriously considering rebuilding a nuclear weapon facility.

Ren2k7

gandalf wrote: »

Well it's ok Putin says that war with Ukraine is "unlikely".



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31596634

Now given his utterances in the past I'd be very very nervous if I was the Ukrainian government.

Then again really they are at war with the Ukraine, they just aren't admitting it.

Thankfully we know how trustworthy Putin is and can take him at his word. :rolleyes:

Ren2k7

Morpheus wrote: »

Ukraine had the knowledge at some stage, they should start rebuilding long range missiles, even if only conventional and tell the soviets that next time they'll be strategically targeting terriroty both in Russia AND in the annexed crimean peninsula regardless of what the russians will do. and personally as a ukraine leader id be seriously considering rebuilding a nuclear weapon facility.

They still do, the Yuzhmash plant in Dnipropetrovsk manufactures the Dnepr and Zenit-2 rockets, ICBM's developed during the Soviet era that have since been converted for civilian space launches.

Unfortunately for the Ukrainian state who owns these rockets their main customer was the Russian Federation, Roscosmos and the Russian Armed Forces who of the beginning of this year have decided they no longer want rockets built by the "coup regime" and have switched to their own.

Russia's federal Space Agency has suspended a Russian-Ukrainian joint venture tasked with converting Soviet-era nuclear missiles into peaceful rockets for commercial satellite launches, the TASS news agency reported on Monday.

The agency's press service was quoted as saying only: "The project for launching the Dnepr rockets has been suspended. Perspectives for the future of the program will be decided later."

Dnepr rockets are actually surplus SS-18 Satan missiles — capable of showering Russia's enemies with 10 independently targeting nuclear warheads per missile. Under a 1997 Russian-Ukrainian agreement, they are converted into space launch vehicles by Ukraine's Yuzhmash factory.

The rehabilitated rockets are sold on the global commercial launch market by the Moscow-based Kosmotras International Space Company for commercial and scientific use.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/moscow-suspends-russian-ukrainian-nuclear-missile-conversion-program/515263.html

Now is a good opportunity for the ESA to make Ukraine a full member and use their expertise in rocket building for their own 'Ariane' rockets.

An FYI on The Moscow Times newspaper, it is looking likely they will be shut down soon by the Kremlin as it is owned by a Finnish media outlet, a supposed violation of their new media ownership laws. The Moscow Times has been one of the few Russia based newspapers that offered a more critical look at Russia under Putin.

BoJack Horseman

Morpheus wrote: »

Ukraine had the knowledge at some stage, they should start rebuilding long range missiles, even if only conventional and tell the soviets that next time they'll be strategically targeting terriroty both in Russia AND in the annexed crimean peninsula regardless of what the russians will do. and personally as a ukraine leader id be seriously considering rebuilding a nuclear weapon facility.

I wouldn't bother.

Massive missiles usually require satellite guidance, which I think Ukraine lacks, otherwise they are just a very expensive way of firing blind.

What Ukraine needs can only be supplied internationally in the short term.

WakeUp

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

Very true, eu are very slow at doing anything specially with germany in there.
Thats why if eu did decide to do something, might be too late as they move so slow with everything.

Ukraine isnt a member of the EU. It isnt up to the EU to do anything militarily or otherwise what gives you the impression that it is.

So here a question, do you support russia in its support of russians fighting civil war in ukraine

No I dont. Now do you support the western backed Ukrainian government in a Ukrainian civil war bombing and murdering their so called own citizens in speratist held areas? I would hazard a guess there is a very large amount of civilians in those areas who if they didnt already, now despise the government in Kiev. For murdering them and blowing them and their stuff up.

Here's another question.
If you don't support russia , How would you stop russians in ukraine in civil war.

Crimea is gone forever as far as the Russians are concerned. and I dont believe the speratist held areas are going to give in either. failing a Nato intervention and all out war with Russia I just cant see how those areas are going to be forcibly taken back. How many Ukrainians are there 40 odd milllion? Thats a fair amount of people. If you want the Russians and seperatists out build an army out of that number and go fight them.

AS far as nato rapid reaction force its better than what's there now plus you seem to think russia will take action with nato,

Ukraine is not and never will be a member of Nato. Thankfully. There will be no Nato reaction force in Ukraine nor should there be.

russia won't take on nato as america would then get involved , won't happen .

Exactly. which sort of puts pay to your conspiracy theory about Russian intentions to attack Nato members which I will get to in a bit. Again, Ukraine is not and never will be a member of Nato.

Are you really telling me you don't know big picture

the big picture. you just admitted yourself Russia will not attack a Nato member. What big picture.

Heres a little read for you when your back online to help you little with big picture as you put it which is your words, not mine :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

Ah wikipedia. That bastion of truth on all things political and geo-political. Its not like its open source or anything and anyone can have a go. Its interesting that you bring Georgia into the discussion, another part of your “ big picture” I assume. Another non EU and non Nato member. its funny I dont see much mention of the following in your attempted demonstration of the “big picture”. if ever there was a reason needed or an example given as to why Georgia and Ukraine and the hot headed simpletons who pose as statesmen and women that lead them, should never be allowed or wanted anywhere near the EU or Nato. then this is it.

Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili blamed for starting Russian war


An investigation into last year's Russia-Georgia war delivered a damning indictment of President Mikheil Saakashvili today, accusing Tbilisi of launching an indiscriminate artillery barrage on the city of Tskhinvali that started the war.

But the conclusions will discomfit the western-backed Georgian leader, Saakashvili, who was found to have started the war with the attack on Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital, on the night of 7 August last year, through a "penchant for acting in the heat of the moment".

The war started "with a massive Georgian artillery attack", the report said, citing an order from Saakashvili that the offensive was aimed at halting Russian military units moving into South Ossetia.

Flatly dismissing Saakashvili's version, the report said: "There was no ongoing armed attack by Russia before the start of the Georgian operation ... Georgian claims of a large-scale presence of Russian armed forces in South Ossetia prior to the Georgian offensive could not be substantiated ... It could also not be verified that Russia was on the verge of such a major attack."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/30/georgia-attacks-unjustifiable-eu

heres another link , may give a little more a hint , I'm sure your able to read it , its not too long a read

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/21/us-ukraine-crisis-un-idUSKBN0KU2KU20150121

and what exactly does that link prove?..

Another link, give you a little more of hint to so called big picture
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/19/russia-a-threat-to-baltic-states-after-ukraine-conflict-warns-michael-fallon

Wait, didnt you just admit that Russia has no intention of attacking a Nato member? Fallons conspiracy theory is just that. unless you can prove otherwise and have evidence to back it up?...

Are you seeing a common theme here with regards russia !!

No. what theme would that be.

weather or not you seen this link or others like it is not the point,
Theres a common theme with regards russia in links i gave you, you don't need to be a genius to see it dude

see above please. cheers.

Ren2k7

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I wouldn't bother.

Massive missiles usually require satellite guidance, which I think Ukraine lacks, otherwise they are just a very expensive way of firing blind.

What Ukraine needs can only be supplied internationally in the short term.

I believe Ukraine still manufactures the rocket guidance systems, including for Russia's own ICBMs weirdly enough. Though I suspect Russia will want to start using its own indigenous guidance and control systems for its missiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khartron

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

Ukraine isnt a member of the EU. It isnt up to the EU to do anything militarily or otherwise what gives you the impression that it is.



No I dont. Now do you support the western backed Ukrainian government in a Ukrainian civil war bombing and murdering their so called own citizens in speratist held areas? I would hazard a guess there is a very large amount of civilians in those areas who if they didnt already, now despise the government in Kiev. For murdering them and blowing them and their stuff up.



Crimea is gone forever as far as the Russians are concerned. and I dont believe the speratist held areas are going to give in either. failing a Nato intervention and all out war with Russia I just cant see how those areas are going to be forcibly taken back. How many Ukrainians are there 40 odd milllion? Thats a fair amount of people. If you want the Russians and seperatists out build an army out of that number and go fight them.



Ukraine is not and never will be a member of Nato. Thankfully. There will be no Nato reaction force in Ukraine nor should there be.



Exactly. which sort of puts pay to your conspiracy theory about Russian intentions to attack Nato members which I will get to in a bit. Again, Ukraine is not and never will be a member of Nato.



the big picture. you just admitted yourself Russia will not attack a Nato member. What big picture.



Ah wikipedia. That bastion of truth on all things political and geo-political. Its not like its open source or anything and anyone can have a go. Its interesting that you bring Georgia into the discussion, another part of your “ big picture” I assume. Another non EU and non Nato member. its funny I dont see much mention of the following in your attempted demonstration of the “big picture”. if ever there was a reason needed or an example given as to why Georgia and Ukraine and the hot headed simpletons who pose as statesmen and women that lead them, should never be allowed or wanted anywhere near the EU or Nato. then this is it.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/30/georgia-attacks-unjustifiable-eu



and what exactly does that link prove?..



Wait, didnt you just admit that Russia has no intention of attacking a Nato member? Fallons conspiracy theory is just that. unless you can prove otherwise and have evidence to back it up?...



No. what theme would that be.



see above please. cheers.

"There is no way to assign overall responsibility for the conflict to one side alone,"

"Inquiry accuses both sides in five-day conflict of breaking laws of war"

...

WakeUp

Gatling wrote: »

"There is no way to assign overall responsibility for the conflict to one side alone,"

"Inquiry accuses both sides in five-day conflict of breaking laws of war"

...

The Georgians started the shooting war conventional "wisdom" would have us believe the Russians just invaded poor little Georgia. it was all Russias fault . but clearly that's fabricated horsesh1te a myth and constructed fairy tale in many quarters. a wise leader that Georgian fella was not . a hotheaded phucktard a more apt description for him. and some want simpletons like him in the EU and NATO. baffling. what did he think was going to happen. he launched a massive artillery barrage for no reason he foolishly believed NATO and the EU had his back in his moment of hotheaded insanity. the man was a fool. history has judged him so.

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

The Georgians started the shooting war conventional "wisdom" would have us believe the Russians just invaded poor little Georgia. it was all Russias fault . but clearly that's fabricated horsesh1te a myth and constructed fairy tale in many quarters. a wise leader that Georgian fella was not . a hotheaded phucktard a more apt description for him. and some want simpletons like him in the EU and NATO. baffling. what did he think was going to happen. he launched a massive artillery barrage for no reason he foolishly believed NATO and the EU had his back in his moment of hotheaded insanity. the man was a fool. history has judged him so.

First it was a supposed massacre of of policemen .
now it was a massive artillery barrage .
Give it time we will get another report and another stating of course russia was justified.

Ren2k7

I see historical revisionist bollox is in vogue here at the minute. South Ossetian terrorists, backed up by the Russian Army, had been continually shelling Georgian army positions for months. Eventually the Georgians snapped and decided to give them a taste of their own medicine. Putin used that as a pretext for a full scale invasion. Lies and deceit are the Russians stock in trade.

WakeUp

Ren2k7 wrote: »

I see historical revisionist bollox is in vogue here at the minute. South Ossetian terrorists, backed up by the Russian Army, had been continually shelling Georgian army positions for months. Eventually the Georgians snapped and decided to give them a taste of their own medicine. Putin used that as a pretext for a full scale invasion. Lies and deceit are the Russians stock in trade.

you're right. there's a serious amount of bollix on this thread. a taste of their own medicine you say. that missile barrage targeted a civilian area butchering them. it was found to be a war crime. and you think that's a taste of their own medicine. that's says a lot. but not surprising when those who condemn the separatists haven't much to say about the Kiev government butchering their own civilians. The Georgians started the shooting war outright it's documented with Russia. and the Russians finished it. yourself and Gatlings attempted mental gymnastics to justify a war crime against civilians are most impressive. So when are yous heading off to fight the Russians lads?..

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

you're right. there's a serious amount of bollix on this thread. a taste of their own medicine you say. that missile barrage targeted a civilian area butchering them. it was found to be a war crime. and you think that's a taste of their own medicine. that's says a lot. but not surprising when those who condemn the separatists haven't much to say about the Kiev government butchering their own civilians. The Georgians started the shooting war outright it's documented with Russia. and the Russians finished it. yourself and Gatlings attempted mental gymnastics to justify a war crime against civilians are most impressive. So when are yous heading off to fight the Russians lads?..

War crimes wonder when the hague trials begin
Kiev buttering who exactly , I'd imagine it should read russian army attacking civilians in Ukraine in a open land grab

WakeUp

Gatling wrote: »

War crimes wonder when the hague trials begin
Kiev buttering who exactly , I'd imagine it should read russian army attacking civilians in Ukraine in a open land grab

It's a civil war. what do you think happens when Kiev shells separatist held places what happens civilians caught up in those blasts. Kiev claims these are their citizens. yet they've no problem killing them. when are you heading over to front line to fight?..could ask the same question of any number posters on this thread with their moar war whooya send NATO in phuck yeah Rambo attitudes. when are yous heading over...

BoJack Horseman

WakeUp wrote: »

when are you heading over to front line to fight?..could ask the same question of any number posters on this thread with their moar war whooya send NATO in phuck yeah Rambo attitudes. when are yous heading over...

This is a stupid post that you have done ad nauseum.

It means nothing & adds nothing, and for someone with literally hundreds of posts in support of Czar Vlad, we wonder when are you going on your holidays & joining the "rebel" ranks?

Add to that your vehement assertions last year that the EU would crumble before the might of Putin's economic might & the sanctions would hurt us far more!

Wilfully blind, embarrassingly biased.
Zero credibility.

WakeUp

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

This is a stupid post that you have done ad nauseum.

It means nothing & adds nothing, and for someone with literally hundreds of posts in support of Czar Vlad, we wonder when are you going on your holidays & joining the "rebel" ranks?

Add to that your vehement assertions last year that the EU would crumble before the might of Putin's economic might & the sanctions would hurt us far more!

Wilfully blind, embarrassingly biased.
Zero credibility.

So you're calling me stupid are you? and it's my credibility that's shot. sit down will you before you make a show of yourself. you're another one on this thread calling for this and that when are you enlisting and heading over to fight? when...just because I have different opinion and position on events than the vast majority on this thread automatically makes me a Putin supporter. really.

BoJack Horseman

WakeUp wrote: »

when are you enlisting and heading over to fight?

You can't help yourself can you!

Like a pavlovian response.

Say it again, you will get a treat

AbusesToilets

What options exist for the Ukrainian forces, given that the rebels are in urban areas? Should they just give up and cede control to the rebels then? Indiscriminate shelling is wrong, however the rebels choose the battleground.

Your continued assertion that this conflict is a civil war is laughable in the face of documented involvement by regular Russian units.

WakeUp

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

You can't help yourself can you!

Like a pavlovian response.

Say it again, you will get a treat

says the poster who calls people "stupid" and thinks this is a proper way to debate. and then resorts to the above. quite pathetic really.

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What options exist for the Ukrainian forces, given that the rebels are in urban areas? Should they just give up and cede control to the rebels then? Indiscriminate shelling is wrong, however the rebels choose the battleground.

Your continued assertion that this conflict is a civil war is laughable in the face of documented involvement by regular Russian units.

Do the people of the separatist areas want anything to do with Kiev? whatever about Russian involvement in these areas could these areas be held without the support of a large percentage of the civilian population. so what you're saying is it isn't a civil war but an outright all in invasion by Russia? that's nonsense.

BoJack Horseman

WakeUp wrote: »

says the poster who calls people "stupid" and thinks this is a proper way to debate. and then resorts to the above. quite pathetic really.

Nah friend, I don't attack the poster, just the post.

I said your post was stupid.

Read carefully.

WakeUp

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Nah friend, I don't attack the poster, just the post.

I said your post was stupid.

Read carefully.

your post is there in black white. I suggest it's you that should read carefully.

gandalf

WakeUp wrote: »

It's a civil war. what do you think happens when Kiev shells separatist held places what happens civilians caught up in those blasts. Kiev claims these are their citizens. yet they've no problem killing them. when are you heading over to front line to fight?..could ask the same question of any number posters on this thread with their moar war whooya send NATO in phuck yeah Rambo attitudes. when are yous heading over...

This is not really a civil war. It is a war that has been initiated by the Kremlin, initially by sending in mercenaries with heavy arms and then directly by sending in troops with no insignia.

If it wasn't for the Russian input into this situation then it would be safe to assume that the majority of the over five thousand people who have lost their lives in this misadventure would still be breathing today.

As for Ukrainian forces shelling areas that were occupied. How would you have dealt with hostile forces on your own soil who have killed your comrades. Throw flower petals at them :rolleyes:

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

This is not really a civil war. It is a war that has been initiated by the Kremlin, initially by sending in mercenaries with heavy arms and then directly by sending in troops with no insignia.

If it wasn't for the Russian input into this situation then it would be safe to assume that the majority of the over five thousand people who have lost their lives in this misadventure would still be breathing today.

As for Ukrainian forces shelling areas that were occupied. How would you have dealt with hostile forces on your own soil who have killed your comrades. Throw flower petals at them :rolleyes:

Since this began I've never once denied Russian involvement. but my question is this..do the people in the separatist held areas want anything to do with Kiev?...

Fiery mutant

WakeUp wrote: »

Since this began I've never once denied Russian involvement. but my question is this..do the people in the separatist held areas want anything to do with Kiev?...

Well seeing as how the separatists took over the land with the help of their Russian overlords, and never actually asked the population about their feelings on the matter, then we will never know will we.

gandalf

WakeUp wrote: »

Since this began I've never once denied Russian involvement. but my question is this..do the people in the separatist held areas want anything to do with Kiev?...

And my question to you is this, how do you know that these separatists do represent the people who live in the occupied territories?

The majority of the initial leaders of this farce were not from the region but from outside the regions seeded there by Moscow.

WakeUp

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Well seeing as how the separatists took over the land with the help of their Russian overlords, and never actually asked the population about their feelings on the matter, then we will never know will we.

Do you believe the people of these areas are living under conditions of duress because of the separatists?..or that the separatists have no support and are not wanted there...who makes up the majority of their armies? if the peoples of these areas wanted nothing to do with should they be allowed be independent or at a minimum have more autonomy is federalised structure? or should they be crushed...

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

And my question to you is this, how do you know that these separatists do represent the people who live in the occupied territories?

The majority of the initial leaders of this farce were not from the region but from outside the regions seeded there by Moscow.

I don't know for certain if they represent the majority will of the people in these areas. How do you know that they don't?...