Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

TerrorFirmer

WakeUp wrote: »

Do you believe the people of these areas are living under conditions of duress because of the separatists?..or that the separatists have no support and are not wanted there...who makes up the majority of their armies? if the peoples of these areas wanted nothing to do with should they be allowed be independent or at a minimum have more autonomy is federalised structure? or should they be crushed...

They should be allowed to make their own decision in democratic elections.

Not with a 'rebel' army - its ranks full of Russian invaders armed with weapons, tanks and artillery - hanging over them.

Fiery mutant

WakeUp wrote: »

Do you believe the people of these areas are living under conditions of duress because of the separatists?..or that the separatists have no support and are not wanted there...who makes up the majority of their armies? if the peoples of these areas wanted nothing to do with should they be allowed be independent or at a minimum have more autonomy is federalised structure? or should they be crushed...

Honest to fcuk, where do you get this crap?

Most of the towns are empty shells, blasted to bits by Russian grads and howitzers.
Most the towns are evacuated of civilians.
The separatists armies? You mean the Russian armies. You do realise that a couple of months ago the rebels were on the verge of being crushed, when all of a sudden they launched a counter offensive and gain huge amounts of ground. Where did all these men and machines come from?

It really is tiring listening to grown adults make excuses for these fcukin russian apes. All they are is mindless thugs, being led down the road to ruin by a crazed despot. Putin doesn't give a fcuk about them, and when he is done using them to further his own ambitions, neither will anyone else. Let them have their little plot of land, and let them rot in it when they see the error of their ways.

WakeUp

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Honest to fcuk, where do you get this crap?

Most of the towns are empty shells, blasted to bits by Russian grads and howitzers.
Most the towns are evacuated of civilians.
The separatists armies? You mean the Russian armies. You do realise that a couple of months ago the rebels were on the verge of being crushed, when all of a sudden they launched a counter offensive and gain huge amounts of ground. Where did all these men and machines come from?

It really is tiring listening to grown adults make excuses for these fcukin russian apes. All they are is mindless thugs, being led down the road to ruin by a crazed despot. Putin doesn't give a fcuk about them, and when he is done using them to further his own ambitions, neither will anyone else. Let them have their little plot of land, and let them rot in it when they see the error of their ways.

Clearly Putin gives a phuck about something that's why they are involved in this. "Russian apes". that's charming. there's plenty of mindless thugs on the other side too or does that only work one way. or is this not really a civil war to you either. I've never denied Russian involvement in this be it equipment or whatever. but Russian "armies" which Russian divisions are in the east and south east? because if they were there this would have been over a long time ago. the Russians it's been claimed have outright invaded these areas numerous times though it's yet to be shown that they have.

gandalf

WakeUp wrote: »

I don't know for certain if they represent the majority will of the people in these areas. How do you know that they don't?...

I don't and given the Russian troops (both mercenary and regular) that are implanted in the territory at the moment I doubt we every will.

What is obvious is that Russia is responsible for this whole situation and the Ukrainians need to be armed so Putin cannot try to carve off more of the Ukraine without a stronger military deterrent. The EU and US need to toughen the sanctions and hit Putin and his supporters where it really hurts and that is financially.

I said in a thread last year after the MH17 massacre by the Russian backed militias that this war between the West and Russia would be an economic one. The bullets would be lost jobs and the artillery would be closed companies and that was before the price of oil plummeted. At the moment Russia is taking an absolute hammering.

BoJack Horseman

WakeUp wrote: »

which Russian divisions are in the east and south east? because if they were there this would have been over a long time ago. the Russians it's been claimed have outright invaded these areas numerous times though it's yet to be shown that they have.

Confirmed regular Russian army units incursions:

76th Guards Air Assault Division
- beaten back by Ukrainian army & suffered some losses.
Putin awarded the division the "order of suvarov" commendation.

Pskov Paratrooper regiment
- suffered heavy losses in August, the unit was again awarded the Order of Suvarov for combat bravery by defence minister Sergey Shoigu.

- 9th Motorised Rifle Brigade out of Novgorod who assisted in a comprehensive victory over Ukrainian forces in ilovaisk in September.

But of course, the vast majority are unknown in their units.

pablomakaveli

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

They should be allowed to make their own decision in democratic elections.

Not with a 'rebel' army - its ranks full of Russian invaders armed with weapons, tanks and artillery - hanging over them.

This is really the crux of the matter here. Had Crimea and the regions under seperatist control pushed to rejoin Russia under fair referendums then the international community would have supported that and no one would have grounds for complaint.

It would have been probably a more successful route for them and more importantly no one would have died.

Fiery mutant

WakeUp wrote: »

Clearly Putin gives a phuck about something that's why they are involved in this. "Russian apes". that's charming. there's plenty of mindless thugs on the other side too or does that only work one way. or is this not really a civil war to you either. I've never denied Russian involvement in this be it equipment or whatever. but Russian "armies" which Russian divisions are in the east and south east? because if they were there this would have been over a long time ago. the Russians it's been claimed have outright invaded these areas numerous times though it's yet to be shown that they have.

Make up your mind will you. In one breath you say "I've never denied Rusiian involvement in this" yet in the next breath say "if there was this would have been over a long time ago".

Only the supremely stupid would deny that the Russians are not pulling the strings here. Everyone here remembers Putin lying through his teeth saying there were no Russian soldiers in Crimea, then admit later on that there were. The vast majority of civilised society has moved on from the kind of Stone Age thinking that Putin and his ilk are bringing to the table.

The world needs to cut loose from these rodents and let them just kill themselves off.

Sobko

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Make up your mind will you. In one breath you say "I've never denied Rusiian involvement in this" yet in the next breath say "if there was this would have been over a long time ago".

Only the supremely stupid would deny that the Russians are not pulling the strings here. Everyone here remembers Putin lying through his teeth saying there were no Russian soldiers in Crimea, then admit later on that there were. The vast majority of civilised society has moved on from the kind of Stone Age thinking that Putin and his ilk are bringing to the table.

The world needs to cut loose from these rodents and let them just kill themselves off.

Who are these rodents you refer to?

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

I don't and given the Russian troops (both mercenary and regular) that are implanted in the territory at the moment I doubt we every will.

What is obvious is that Russia is responsible for this whole situation and the Ukrainians need to be armed so Putin cannot try to carve off more of the Ukraine without a stronger military deterrent. The EU and US need to toughen the sanctions and hit Putin and his supporters where it really hurts and that is financially.

I said in a thread last year after the MH17 massacre by the Russian backed militias that this war between the West and Russia would be an economic one. The bullets would be lost jobs and the artillery would be closed companies and that was before the price of oil plummeted. At the moment Russia is taking an absolute hammering.

Unless America unilaterally take the lead the Ukrainians won't be armed. Germany and France won't do it. and the British don't want to arm them. Russian defence minister I think was recently in Tehran. If the Ukrainians are armed the Russians will arm the Iranians.

WakeUp

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Make up your mind will you. In one breath you say "I've never denied Rusiian involvement in this" yet in the next breath say "if there was this would have been over a long time ago".

Only the supremely stupid would deny that the Russians are not pulling the strings here. Everyone here remembers Putin lying through his teeth saying there were no Russian soldiers in Crimea, then admit later on that there were. The vast majority of civilised society has moved on from the kind of Stone Age thinking that Putin and his ilk are bringing to the table.

The world needs to cut loose from these rodents and let them just kill themselves off.

You said Russian "armies". the separatist armies are outright Russian armies and not a proxy this is what you are saying? Who are the supremely "stupid" in your eyes? and your "Russian apes" comment..is it just the Russian separatists that are "apes" or is it all Russian people in your eyes are "apes".

BoJack Horseman

WakeUp wrote: »

Unless America unilaterally take the lead the Ukrainians won't be armed. Germany and France won't do it. and the British don't want to arm them. Russian defence minister I think was recently in Tehran. If the Ukrainians are armed the Russians will arm the Iranians.

That remains to be seen.

The Russians offered Iran the sale of a S-300VM air defence system.

Iran doesn't need smaller kit & an enhanced S-300 system is around $150m.....

It may be too rich for Iran's blood.
And Russia would happily sell them to anyone, Ukraine or not, as they are a terrific cash generator.
There may be a quid-pro-quo for not arming Ukraine, but probably not.

Fiery mutant

Sobko wrote: »

Who are these rodents you refer to?

The rodents would be Putin and the cronies who act and think like him. I would have thought that was fairly obvious.

WakeUp wrote: »

You said Russian "armies". the separatist armies are outright Russian armies and not a proxy this is what you are saying? Who are the supremely "stupid" in your eyes? and your "Russian apes" comment..is it just the Russian separatists that are "apes" or is it all Russian people in your eyes are "apes".

Actually no, you were the first person to use the term 'armies' when you spoke of separatist armies as if they were some sort of legitimate military force. Yes, the separatist 'army' is largely a proxy of the Russian military. They get their supplies from Russia, their commands from Russia, and large numbers of their fighters from Russia.

The large number of graves of Russian 'holidaymakers' killed in Ukraine tell that story.

And, once again, the 'apes' would the the idiots that follow the lead 'ape' Putin and his lies.

They would also fall under the supremely stupid category.

WakeUp

Fiery mutant wrote: »

The rodents would be Putin and the cronies who act and think like him. I would have thought that was fairly obvious.



Actually no, you were the first person to use the term 'armies' when you spoke of separatist armies as if they were some sort of legitimate military force. Yes, the separatist 'army' is largely a proxy of the Russian military. They get their supplies from Russia, their commands from Russia, and large numbers of their fighters from Russia.

The large number of graves of Russian 'holidaymakers' killed in Ukraine tell that story.

And, once again, the 'apes' would the the idiots that follow the lead 'ape' Putin and his lies.

They would also fall under the supremely stupid category.

Give us an example of these "idiots" "apes" you speak off which followers who are they? and the supremely stupid. you seem quite angry. ok so they aren't an army because they aren't legitimate I get it. what course of action would you suggest is the best one to take in Ukraine...moar war?..

Fiery mutant

WakeUp wrote: »

Give us an example of these "idiots" "apes" you speak off which followers who are they? and the supremely stupid. you seem quite angry. ok so they aren't an army because they aren't legitimate I get it. what course of action would you suggest is the best one to take in Ukraine...moar war?..

Ok so listen carefully. I've said before the lead 'ape' is Putin, who is nothing but an over egged schoolyard bully. The fact that he is a world leader is nothing to do with him being a great guy, or someone who is a great leader. It is down to the fact he is a bully. Now in any other country this might stand out as being quite remarkable, but not in Russia. In Russia, especially Putin's Russia, anything goes. His opponents are either killed or jailed, often on made up charges. Free press is practically non existent, journalists often killed or beaten for not towing the Kremlin line.

The people who deal in this type of behaviour are what I am referring to as apes. I would include all those who carry this out, support it and actively encourage it.

The people who follow this and try to make excuses for this type of behaviour are the idiots.

And seriously, 'moar war', why is it that everytime someone advocates a stern response to bullies, someone has to come out with this 'keyboard warrior mantra'. Human history is filled with people who have had to make a decision to go to war to deal with bullies. Until people like Putin are no more, war will always be something the human race has to deal with.

WakeUp

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Ok so listen carefully.

I've said before the lead 'ape' is Putin, who is nothing but an over egged schoolyard bully. The fact that he is a world leader is nothing to do with him being a great guy, or someone who is a great leader. It is down to the fact he is a bully. Now in any other country this might stand out as being quite remarkable, but not in Russia. In Russia, especially Putin's Russia, anything goes. His opponents are either killed or jailed, often on made up charges. Free press is practically non existent, journalists often killed or beaten for not towing the Kremlin line..

The people who deal in this type of behaviour are what I am referring to as apes. I would include all those who carry this out, support it and actively encourage it.

The people who follow this and try to make excuses for this type of behaviour are the idiots.

right so Putin is Caesar. He is head ape. and he lives in the trees with his followers. speaking of which his approval rating in Russia at the moment is something like 80% maybe. thats a lot of apes in your opinion. anyone who doesnt agree with the large cult like even group think on display on certain aspects of whats happening by plenty of people. they are the idiots in your eyes. fair enough. thanks for clearing that up.

Shurimgreat

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Honest to fcuk, where do you get this crap?

Most of the towns are empty shells, blasted to bits by Russian grads and howitzers.
Most the towns are evacuated of civilians.
The separatists armies? You mean the Russian armies. You do realise that a couple of months ago the rebels were on the verge of being crushed, when all of a sudden they launched a counter offensive and gain huge amounts of ground. Where did all these men and machines come from?

It really is tiring listening to grown adults make excuses for these fcukin russian apes. All they are is mindless thugs, being led down the road to ruin by a crazed despot. Putin doesn't give a fcuk about them, and when he is done using them to further his own ambitions, neither will anyone else. Let them have their little plot of land, and let them rot in it when they see the error of their ways.

A good point. Much of the critical infrastructure of the region has been destroyed. Not sure how much the Donesk airport cost but probably upwards of 500 million. The Russians will need to invest billions if not tens of billions.

The laughable thing is it was the same with Crimera. It's cut off from mainland Russia and it needs billions of investment. There was talk of building a bridge from mainland Russia to it and it looked like the Russians weren't too keen on such a costly project. Instead they decided to go for the "cheap option" which was blast a land bridge through Ukraine through invasion. That's looking just as costly.

The Russians seem to be getting deeper and deeper into a very expensive quagmire they simply cannot afford. And Putin cannot back down otherwise he will look week at home, which no Russian leader wants to do.

AbusesToilets

WakeUp wrote: »

Do the people of the separatist areas want anything to do with Kiev? whatever about Russian involvement in these areas could these areas be held without the support of a large percentage of the civilian population. so what you're saying is it isn't a civil war but an outright all in invasion by Russia? that's nonsense.

Lets see, uniformed Russian soldiers? Check. Russian armored units? Check. Russian artillery barrages? Check. Conducting offensive operations in Ukraine? Check.

Seems like a fairly full on invasion to me.

Ren2k7

WakeUp wrote: »

you're right. there's a serious amount of bollix on this thread. a taste of their own medicine you say. that missile barrage targeted a civilian area butchering them. it was found to be a war crime. and you think that's a taste of their own medicine. that's says a lot. but not surprising when those who condemn the separatists haven't much to say about the Kiev government butchering their own civilians. The Georgians started the shooting war outright it's documented with Russia. and the Russians finished it. yourself and Gatlings attempted mental gymnastics to justify a war crime against civilians are most impressive. So when are yous heading off to fight the Russians lads?..

Good god, do you hear yourself? You sound like one of those lunatic talking heads who pops up on Russian Today via Skype blathering about how bloody evil the West is.

Ren2k7

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Lets see, uniformed Russian soldiers? Check. Russian armored units? Check. Russian artillery barrages? Check. Conducting offensive operations in Ukraine? Check.

Seems like a fairly full on invasion to me.

Clearly American/NATO/Banderist/Nazi lies. There are no Russian troops in Ukraine, they are farmers and miners. Even those in possession of weapons only made in Russia and wearing the latest Russian army battle uniform.

WakeUp

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Good god, do you hear yourself? You sound like one of those lunatic talking heads who pops up on Russian Today via Skype blathering about how bloody evil the West is.

I would posit a "lunatic" is somebody who believes shelling and butchering civilians is giving them a "taste of their own medicine". who said anything about the evil west. you're calling for war. when you heading off to fight Russians?..what size are your boots...

Elmer Blooker

WakeUp wrote: »

I would posit a "lunatic" is somebody who believes shelling and butchering civilians is giving them a "taste of their own medicine". who said anything about the evil west. you're calling for war. when you heading off to fight Russians?..what size are your boots...

+1
I consider those screeching for the declaration of WW 3 to be the lunatics.
Even my dog knows there can be no winners if WW3 starts.

Lets see, uniformed Russian soldiers? Check. Russian armored units? Check. Russian artillery barrages? Check. Conducting offensive operations in Ukraine? Check.
Seems like a fairly full on invasion to me.

I gave up a long long time ago asking for evidence of these "invasions" (all 500+ of them)

RTE News at One has just quoted the Azov Battalion as a news source.
The lunatics have taken over the asylum.

K-9

WakeUp wrote: »

but clearly that's fabricated horsesh1te a myth and constructed fairy tale in many quarters. a wise leader that Georgian fella was not . a hotheaded phucktard a more apt description for him. and some want simpletons like him in the EU and NATO. baffling. what did he think was going to happen. he launched a massive artillery barrage for no reason he foolishly believed NATO and the EU had his back in his moment of hotheaded insanity. the man was a fool. history has judged him so.

Ren2k7 wrote: »

I see historical revisionist bollox is in vogue here at the minute. S

WakeUp wrote: »

you're right. there's a serious amount of bollix on this thread. a taste of their own medicine you say.

yourself and Gatlings attempted mental gymnastics to justify a war crime against civilians are most impressive. So when are yous heading off to fight the Russians lads?..

WakeUp wrote: »

.could ask the same question of any number posters on this thread with their moar war whooya send NATO in phuck yeah Rambo attitudes. when are yous heading over...

WakeUp wrote: »

So you're calling me stupid are you? and it's my credibility that's shot. sit down will you before you make a show of yourself. you're another one on this thread calling for this and that when are you enlisting and heading over to fight? when...just because I have different opinion and position on events than the vast majority on this thread automatically makes me a Putin supporter. really.

Mod:

Can we calm down a little please Wakeup, we don't have many voices from your side of the debate and I'd like to keep the good ones and not start banning them!

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

You can't help yourself can you!

Like a pavlovian response.

Say it again, you will get a treat

WakeUp wrote: »

says the poster who calls people "stupid" and thinks this is a proper way to debate. and then resorts to the above. quite pathetic really.

Don't respond in kind please.

K-9

Fiery mutant wrote: »

The world needs to cut loose from these rodents and let them just kill themselves off.

Mod:

We are getting close to championing/supporting murder here, cut it out please. We take a hard line on any views like that on the politics board.

So, it seems the idea of EU energy reliance on Russia is too intolerable for Mr Juncker and his Energy Commissioner, who have today formulated a plan to divorce Europe from one abominable tyrant, and pursue an energy deal with... the Turkmen.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f73e0e3c-bc05-11e4-a6d7-00144feab7de.html#axzz3SlLbgpqQ

To secure those increased volumes, [the Energy Union Commissioner] has embarked on a courtship of Turkmenistan, a reclusive and repressive state that holds the world’s fourth-biggest gas reserves.

http://ec.europa.eu/priorities/energy-union/docs/energyunion_en.pdf

As part of a revitalised European energy and climate diplomacy, the EU will use all its foreign policy instruments to establish strategic energy partnerships with increasingly important producing and transit countries or regions such as Algeria and Turkey; Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan; the Middle East; Africa and other potential suppliers.

gandalf

WakeUp wrote: »

Unless America unilaterally take the lead the Ukrainians won't be armed. Germany and France won't do it. and the British don't want to arm them. Russian defence minister I think was recently in Tehran. If the Ukrainians are armed the Russians will arm the Iranians.

The thing is they may or they may get a local entity like Poland for example to pass on kit to the Ukrainians. All sides are playing a dangerous game here. The question is what do you do when one side is quite clearly being armed and directly assisted by a regional power and the legitimate government of that country is asking for assistance. Disgustingly so far the West effectively has stood by and given Putin a free reign to pump Eastern Ukraine full of Russian Heavy military equipment, mercenaries and regular Russian troops.

As for the Iranians you could quite possibility see a coalition with them in the fight against ISIS in Iraq, there are already Iranian troops on the ground "training" Shiite militias.

BoJack Horseman

Diversification makes sense.

It seems silly that so many EU states were 90% - 100% reliant on Russian supply.

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

It seems silly that so many EU states were 90% - 100% reliant on Russian supply.

It's 27% overall. The EU could reduce some countries' over-reliance by implementing its long-running objective of energy union (and the aspect of the document dealing with energy union is welcome).

Clearly, the shift from Russian fuel is predicated to an extent by political objections to what some Europeans might call Russian despotism. Which means cozying up to the Turkmen really is a triumph of hypocrisy.

The "door to hell", you might say....

Ren2k7

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Diversification makes sense.

It seems silly that so many EU states were 90% - 100% reliant on Russian supply.

What we need to start doing is pursue fracking, subject to stringent environmental checks of course. Economic development and environmental protection need not be mutually exclusive concepts after all.

Secondly Europe, including Ireland, needs to embrace nuclear power. The latest nuclear reactor designs are completely different to the likes of Three Mile Island and Chernobyl that many think of when they hear 'nuclear power' mentioned. The key is to move away from Russian and Mid East imports of oil and eventually become energy self sufficient.

Gatling

Ren2k7 wrote: »

What we need to start doing is pursue fracking, subject to stringent environmental checks of course. Economic development and environmental protection need not be mutually exclusive concepts after all.

Secondly Europe, including Ireland, needs to embrace nuclear power. The latest nuclear reactor designs are completely different to the likes of Three Mile Island and Chernobyl that many think of when they hear 'nuclear power' mentioned. The key is to move away from Russian and Mid East imports of oil and eventually become energy self sufficient.

But as long as Saudi keep the price of oil low as possible it makes it difficult to make franking a sustainable and profitable business .
It's an expensive project .
Makes you wonder if europe wants to go down the Turkmen route how long before the kremlin objects and makes threats

Elmer Blooker

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

So, it seems the idea of EU energy reliance on Russia is too intolerable for Mr Juncker and his Energy Commissioner, who have today formulated a plan to divorce Europe from one abominable tyrant, and pursue an energy deal with... the Turkmen.

At last a post on the subject of what Ukraine is really all about - the supply and flow of energy.
http://www.ibtimes.com/azerbaijan-repressive-corrupt-country-west-loves-there-must-be-oil-704066

^ That doesn't surprise me but this I find nauseating.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49111.htm

NATO and Azerbaijan actively cooperate on democratic, institutional and defence reforms,