Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Shurimgreat

WakeUp wrote: »

right so Putin is Caesar. He is head ape. and he lives in the trees with his followers. speaking of which his approval rating in Russia at the moment is something like 80% maybe. thats a lot of apes in your opinion. anyone who doesnt agree with the large cult like even group think on display on certain aspects of whats happening by plenty of people. they are the idiots in your eyes. fair enough. thanks for clearing that up.

I believe George W. Bush's popularity was of a similar high figure post 9/11 and in even in the run up to Iraq 2003.
And Hitler was widely popular in Germany after defeating France in 1940.

War leaders tend to be popular, people put aside differences and get behind the country and the leader.

They can be popular and still terrible leaders.

Shurimgreat

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

At last a post on the subject of what Ukraine is really all about - the supply and flow of energy.
http://www.ibtimes.com/azerbaijan-repressive-corrupt-country-west-loves-there-must-be-oil-704066

^ That doesn't surprise me but this I find nauseating.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49111.htm

You do come out with some nonsense.

For a start, the EU has no interest in p*ssing of Russians either in the short or long term, not today and not in February 2014.

Can you guess why?

The notion that the EU would make trouble for their number 1 energy supplier is nonsense, most intelligent people understand that.

I'm afraid you will have to look harder for the causes of the Ukrainian revolution.

Shurimgreat

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The notion that the EU would make trouble for their number 1 energy supplier is nonsense, most intelligent people understand that.

Except the EU is made up of member states with hugely varying energy profiles.

The states closest to Russia are almost completely reliant on Russia, whereas the UK is about 15% reliant on Russian energy, and is not reliant on exports to Russia. In fact, the UK benefits from Russian capital outflows.

Little wonder that David Cameron has decided to dispatch more British soldiers "military trainers" to Ukraine, whilst in the same breath fuming about Russian support for the rebels.

In a scarcely disguised phallic reference, the PM, whose role in the Ukrainian crisis has been uproariously dwarfed by the French and German PMs, vowed to be "the biggest pole in the tent".

BoJack Horseman

A Tyrant NamedMiltiades! wrote: »

the PM, whose role in the Ukrainian crisis has been uproariously dwarfed by the French and German PMs, vowed to be "the biggest pole in the tent".

In fairness, the shiny-chinned Dave agreed, with Obama, to allow Merkel/Hollande lead dealings with Czar Vlad at the NATO summit last summer.

They dmfelt it would be more constructive.
(Instead of the Neville Chamberlain double act it turned out as).

Lockstep

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Little wonder that David Cameron has decided to dispatch more British soldiers "military trainers" to Ukraine, whilst in the same breath fuming about Russian support for the rebels.

Except the UK military trainers are there at the express invitation of the democratically elected government of Ukraine. By contrast, Russia is directly supporting non-state-actors and moving their troops into the country: a direct violation of international law which Russia has been happy to criticise the US for in the past

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

In fairness, the shiny-chinned Dave agreed, with Obama, to allow Merkel/Hollande lead dealings with Czar Vlad at the NATO summit last summer.

Well he's changed his tune, presumably having been put in very bad humour over the presence of Russian bombers in British airspace last week, and today having to come out and defend British military strength. Heavens tonight, this is an election year. Its no wonder his pole is up.

BoJack Horseman

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Well he's changed his tune, presumably having been put in very bad humour over the presence of Russian bombers in British airspace last week, and today having to come out and defend British military strength. Heavens tonight, this is an election year.

Dave is taking flak alright, what with the UK being militarily as weak as its been since the Boer war.

But I think the trainer deal has been going on for quote a while now.

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

The thing is they may or they may get a local entity like Poland for example to pass on kit to the Ukrainians. All sides are playing a dangerous game here. The question is what do you do when one side is quite clearly being armed and directly assisted by a regional power and the legitimate government of that country is asking for assistance. Disgustingly so far the West effectively has stood by and given Putin a free reign to pump Eastern Ukraine full of Russian Heavy military equipment, mercenaries and regular Russian troops.

As for the Iranians you could quite possibility see a coalition with them in the fight against ISIS in Iraq, there are already Iranian troops on the ground "training" Shiite militias.

I was reading today that they intend to source weapons from the UAE.

Ukraine to Buy ‘Defensive’ Weapons in U.A.E., President Says

Ukraine said it would buy what it called defensive weapons from the United Arab Emirates, bypassing the West’s reluctance to provide arms to help Kiev’s forces against Russia-backed rebels.

President Petro Poroshenko, speaking Tuesday at the International Defense Exhibition and Conference in Abu Dhabi, didn’t specify what type of equipment Ukraine would buy or in what quantities, but said they would help Ukraine protect its territory from the separatists.

The U.A.E. Defense Ministry couldn’t immediately be reached for comment. It didn’t include any Ukraine-related arms deals in its daily contract update for the exposition.

Ukraine has for months requested lethal weapons from its backers in the West, but run into stiff resistance especially from Germany, France and Britain, which fear an escalation in the nearly yearlong conflict.

The Obama administration recently began reconsidering supplying Javelin antitank missiles, small arms and ammunition to Ukraine, but delayed a decision during the latest European peace efforts, which brought a cease-fire agreement on Feb. 12.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-president-meets-u-a-e-officials-to-secure-weapons-purchase-1424788248

thankfully Germany and France so far have managed to put off arming the Ukrainians. arming them if it happens is going to lead to a lot more bloodshed and lost lives and whole host of geopolitical problems for the west. the Iranians trust the Americans about as much as the Russians do. if the Americans arm them the Russians will arm Iran. its why I would do if I was Putin anyways. Id also arm Syria while I was at it. then phone Netanyahu and tell the Israelis that if they make any attempt or even think about attacking or blowing up the shipment of weapons as Israel has tacitly threatened to carry out if the delivery takes place, Id be sending a number of SS-18s directly toward Tel Aviv. if the Americans go ahead and arm Ukraine directly its going to cause them , their allies, the world , and their interests a serious amount of problems.

WakeUp

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

In fairness, the shiny-chinned Dave agreed, with Obama, to allow Merkel/Hollande lead dealings with Czar Vlad at the NATO summit last summer.

They dmfelt it would be more constructive.
(Instead of the Neville Chamberlain double act it turned out as).

Merkel didnt want either of them at the recent Minsk meetings. I think that below the surface behind the scenes a rift is either happening or taking shape. You have the French and Germans trying to get people around the table whilst the British decide to send troops over and the Americans mull arming them. Putin as we know doesnt like the Americans he believes them to be arrogant. he views Britain as an insignificant island. Dave and Obama wont get anywhere with him. unless you want to start a fight.

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

I was reading today that they intend to source weapons from the UAE.


http://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-president-meets-u-a-e-officials-to-secure-weapons-purchase-1424788248

thankfully Germany and France so far have managed to put off arming the Ukrainians. arming them if it happens is going to lead to a lot more bloodshed and lost lives and whole host of geopolitical problems for the west. the Iranians trust the Americans about as much as the Russians do. if the Americans arm them the Russians will arm Iran. its why I would do if I was Putin anyways. Id also arm Syria while I was at it. then phone Netanyahu and tell the Israelis that if they make any attempt or even think about attacking or blowing up the shipment of weapons as Israel has tacitly threatened to carry out if the delivery takes place, Id be sending a number of SS-18s directly toward Tel Aviv. if the Americans go ahead and arm Ukraine directly its going to cause them , their allies, the world , and their interests a serious amount of problems.

So if the west sends weapons to Ukraine ,
Russia should arm Syria and help attack isreal all because of Russian aggression in Ukraine ,

That's just desperate logic's

WakeUp

Gatling wrote: »

So if the west sends weapons to Ukraine ,
Russia should arm Syria and help attack isreal all because of Russian aggression in Ukraine ,

That's just desperate logic's

Im not saying Russia should do anything. Im saying what I think will happen if the Americans arm Ukraine. the Israelis have threatened to attack any shipment of advanced air defense systems if the Russians end up shipping them. nobody said anything about Russia helping Syria attack Israel. where are you getting that from.

aloyisious

link to Washington Post article - US Military take part in Estonian Independence Day celebrations in Narva.

http://wapo.st/1Bsjxyu

Elmer Blooker

aloyisious wrote: »

link to Washington Post article - US Military take part in Estonian Independence Day celebrations in Narva.

http://wapo.st/1Bsjxyu

I saw this earlier on RT. Estonia is a NATO member and US forces are there by agreement and thats a fact but I just find it undignified, childish, juvenile and a pathetic gesture. What does it prove having a mickey mouse parade 300m from the Russian border? Its hardly a show of force and it makes NATO look like a bunch of idiots! What was that A Tyrant Named Miliades was saying earlier? ........... "my pole is bigger than yours" - school playground stuff.

AbusesToilets

You're right, they should act more maturely, do things like invade another sovereign nation, or have their leaders go horseback riding topless. Disgraceful carry on all together.

BoJack Horseman

aloyisious wrote: »

link to Washington Post article - US Military take part in Estonian Independence Day celebrations in Narva.

http://wapo.st/1Bsjxyu

And Estonia didn't even get the good stuff!

Just some sh*tty Strykers.

Our cavalry regiments would have put on a much better display.

Ren2k7

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I saw this earlier on RT. Estonia is a NATO member and US forces are there by agreement and thats a fact but I just find it undignified, childish, juvenile and a pathetic gesture. What does it prove having a mickey mouse parade 300m from the Russian border? Its hardly a show of force and it makes NATO look like a bunch of idiots! What was that A Tyrant Named Miliades was saying earlier? ........... "my pole is bigger than yours" - school playground stuff.

Meanwhile you stay silent on Russian military parades in Sevastopol. I wonder why.....

Ren2k7

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

And Estonia didn't even get the good stuff!

Just some sh*tty Strykers.

Our cavalry regiments would have put on a much better display.

Strykers are derived from MOWAG's that we use, no? Personally I quite like the APC's we have. Shame they couldn't have taken part in the parade in the border city of Narva, a place where Russian imperialists want to "take back" due to it being mostly ethnically Russian.

BTW, here's the large convey of NATO forces moving through the city on Sunday night in preparation for Estonia's independence day celebrations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLUiYaNcfkk

The time is now for NATO to build a line of heavily manned bases and air facilities all the Baltic/Russia frontier. Guard it like the Fulda Gap of the Cold War.

KELTICKNIGHTT

WakeUp wrote: »

Ukraine isnt a member of the EU. It isnt up to the EU to do anything militarily or otherwise what gives you the impression that it is.



No I dont. Now do you support the western backed Ukrainian government in a Ukrainian civil war bombing and murdering their so called own citizens in speratist held areas? I would hazard a guess there is a very large amount of civilians in those areas who if they didnt already, now despise the government in Kiev. For murdering them and blowing them and their stuff up.



Crimea is gone forever as far as the Russians are concerned. and I dont believe the speratist held areas are going to give in either. failing a Nato intervention and all out war with Russia I just cant see how those areas are going to be forcibly taken back. How many Ukrainians are there 40 odd milllion? Thats a fair amount of people. If you want the Russians and seperatists out build an army out of that number and go fight them.



Ukraine is not and never will be a member of Nato. Thankfully. There will be no Nato reaction force in Ukraine nor should there be.



Exactly. which sort of puts pay to your conspiracy theory about Russian intentions to attack Nato members which I will get to in a bit. Again, Ukraine is not and never will be a member of Nato.



the big picture. you just admitted yourself Russia will not attack a Nato member. What big picture.



Ah wikipedia. That bastion of truth on all things political and geo-political. Its not like its open source or anything and anyone can have a go. Its interesting that you bring Georgia into the discussion, another part of your “ big picture” I assume. Another non EU and non Nato member. its funny I dont see much mention of the following in your attempted demonstration of the “big picture”. if ever there was a reason needed or an example given as to why Georgia and Ukraine and the hot headed simpletons who pose as statesmen and women that lead them, should never be allowed or wanted anywhere near the EU or Nato. then this is it.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/30/georgia-attacks-unjustifiable-eu



and what exactly does that link prove?..



Wait, didnt you just admit that Russia has no intention of attacking a Nato member? Fallons conspiracy theory is just that. unless you can prove otherwise and have evidence to back it up?...



No. what theme would that be.



see above please. cheers.

I never said russia would attack nato, russia hasn't the guts too.
we all know ukraine isn't part of eu or un or nato, will it be who knows !!!
georgia which i talked about was a country tried to do same there as what's happening ukraine !!! but i guess you missed that point .

The big picture is russia want ukraine because it not part of un or nato and wants to get ukraine before it might be,,Weather you agree or not, i couldn't give a s!!T !!!!!

America will do something for ukraine, this week uk is sending over military to help train Ukrainians and would suspect america will do something also and I hope they do!!!!!
I think the people of ukraine need help to stop this as russia talks bo1ix and proven lairs
it's enough that germany and france talks crap with these so called truce agreements that aren't worth anything .
The russian muppets will continue to take as much as they can because they better equipped by russia and getting military support in many ways from russia.
Unlike you , I hear what going on there, from my partners family relatives in ukraine and eastern europe , I don't relay on news reports only !!!

Putin isn't worried in any way what europe says or even does,that's very clear to see,
One thing is very certain all europe will do is sit on fence so to speak and talk and talk and talk , so ukraine isn't expecting much but has hope about eu only

pablomakaveli

Poland is sending troops into help with training now as well.

http://www.krakowpost.com/article/8774

Poland is to send ‘several dozen’ troops to Ukraine to help train the army there in their de facto war with Russia—but a Russian news portal says ‘nothing new’. Defence ministry advisor Bogusław Pacek has confirmed that Poland will follow the example of the United Kingdom, which this week said it would send 75 army trainers.
Mr Pacek said: “The Ministry of Defence intends to send Polish instructors to support the training of Ukrainian non-commissioned officers.”
He declined to state the exact number, but said it could be up to several dozen.
Last week, a joint report from American think tanks said that Poland was in prime position to aid Ukraine with military support.
The report also highlighted the UK, along with Canada and the Baltic States, as countries that should be approached.
It said: “Poland, in particular, as a former Warsaw Pact member, should be able to help with consumables and spare parts, as well as compatible equipment, since the bulk of Ukraine’s equipment is Soviet in origin.”
As Inside-Poland.com went to press, the Russian news portal Polska-Kaliningrad.ru said Poland had been supporting training missions in Ukraine for several months.
However, the Polish media watchdog is already set to investigate the actions of Russian media in Poland, following comments from MPs and MEPs that the West was in danger of losing the propaganda war with Moscow.

BoJack Horseman

All these trainers will have very limited use.

A) because I'm sure the Ukrainian army still has some of its own
training is of limited use when Russian UAVs have zeroed an artillery strike right on top of you.
Or when your communications have been jammmed by Russian mobile jammers yet again & you can't radio for help.... (which is how the Ukrainian army were finally beaten at Donetsk airport).

The training gap isn't the biggest problem.
Its the massive imbalance in tech.

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

All these trainers will have very limited use.

A) because I'm sure the Ukrainian army still has some of its own
training is of limited use when Russian UAVs have zeroed an artillery strike right on top of you.
Or when your communications have been jammmed by Russian mobile jammers yet again & you can't radio for help.... (which is how the Ukrainian army were finally beaten at Donetsk airport).

The training gap isn't the biggest problem.
Its the massive imbalance in tech.

The single biggest issue the Ukrainian army has had is leadership which is effectively killing itself there is little or no motivation ,
I was reading a respected military author and former US special forces member who's been to Ukraine to work as a trainer and reporter .
He reckoned the Ukrainian army had zero NCO's at one stage and it's senior command was made up of well paid russian officers while the rest were barely paid enough to feed themselfs and there families .
It was the same problem within the police forces some funding given to various units while the majority went to pro russian units such as the infamous Berkut.
While lead to massive corruption including many police officers setting up illegal road blocks and various money making scheme's.

The army needs a massive investment in training , equipment and officer training .

But we will now have US army europe , UK and polish troops helping with training

Ren2k7

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

All these trainers will have very limited use.

A) because I'm sure the Ukrainian army still has some of its own
training is of limited use when Russian UAVs have zeroed an artillery strike right on top of you.
Or when your communications have been jammmed by Russian mobile jammers yet again & you can't radio for help.... (which is how the Ukrainian army were finally beaten at Donetsk airport).

The training gap isn't the biggest problem.
Its the massive imbalance in tech.

The UA needs better leadership for a start. The old staff are hopeless, with many unwilling to properly fight against the Russians. Hardly surprising given many officers served in the Soviet Army, alongside comrades who are now their enemy. Time for a clear out of the old guard and bring in new patriotic Ukrainians untainted by affiliation with the former Soviet regime.

Ren2k7

In Donbass itself comes welcome news the ceasefire is finally starting to be implemented, albeit slowly:

Ukraine's army is starting the withdrawal of heavy weapons from the front line in the east as part of a truce, the defence ministry says.

It says the pullout of 100mm calibre artillery "is the first step" and will be monitored by foreign observers.

Pro-Russian rebels earlier said they had started withdrawing their weapons. This has not been verified by monitors.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31640649

Hopefully this can keep up and the sporadic fighting flaring up dies down completely. Another frozen conflict in Europe (like in Transnistria and Nagorno-Karabakh) might not be the best of news, but it's a damn site better than the alternative of Russian tanks rolling towards Odessa. Let these "rebel" morons have their kleptocratic pseudo-states subsidised entirely by the Kremlin. It'll allow the Ukrainians to concentrate on getting their economy back on track, and hopefully overhauling the entire state along Western lines, removing inefficient and corrupt Soviet/Russian practices and orientating towards the EU and NATO.

BoJack Horseman

Back when there was more western media in Ukraine, we even got to see the odd image of a T-90.

I remember seeing them a few times caught on Channel 4 clips.

The infa-red "Shlota" are very distinctive on either side of the barrel...


They are intended to disrupt the laser guidance mechanism of anti-tank weapons.


I noticed a few during the september>/October offensive last year.

Ukraine has never possessed this.
Its all "holiday travel" & the bots would have us believe.
(As we know, soldiers drive tanks to their holidays all the time!)

Ren2k7

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Back when there was more western media in Ukraine, we even got to see the odd image of a T-90.

I remember seeing them a few times caught on Channel 4 clips.

The infa-red "Shlota" are very distinctive on either side of the barrel...


They are intended to disrupt the laser guidance mechanism of anti-tank weapons.


I noticed a few during the september>/October offensive last year.

Ukraine has never possessed this.
Its all "holiday travel" & the bots would have us believe.
(As we know, soldiers drive tanks to their holidays all the time!)

Despite the mountain of evidence that proves Russian forces are directly engaging militarily in eastern Ukraine you still see pro Kremlin lunatics shill furiously for them and deny any involvement by Russia in the country. Whatever the Kremlin line is they will follow to the letter.

gandalf

Here's an interesting site. They are tracking the different vehicles being used in the Ukrainian conflict. Again quite a number are used only by the Russian military.

https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2015/02/12/ukraine-conflict-vehicle-first-week/

Fiery mutant

WakeUp wrote: »

I was reading today that they intend to source weapons from the UAE.


http://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-president-meets-u-a-e-officials-to-secure-weapons-purchase-1424788248

thankfully Germany and France so far have managed to put off arming the Ukrainians. arming them if it happens is going to lead to a lot more bloodshed and lost lives and whole host of geopolitical problems for the west. the Iranians trust the Americans about as much as the Russians do. if the Americans arm them the Russians will arm Iran. its why I would do if I was Putin anyways. Id also arm Syria while I was at it. then phone Netanyahu and tell the Israelis that if they make any attempt or even think about attacking or blowing up the shipment of weapons as Israel has tacitly threatened to carry out if the delivery takes place, Id be sending a number of SS-18s directly toward Tel Aviv. if the Americanss go ahead and arm Ukraine directly its going to cause them , their allies, the world , and their interests a serious amount of problems.

Despite what some people think of Israel, if there is one country in the world you don't wanna piss off, it's Israel. They would have no problem defending themselves, no matter the opponent.

Fiery mutant

http://bellingcat-vehicles.silk.co

Site that collects images of Russian military equipment pictured in Ukraine through the conflict. Some interesting images and notes, especially when you see the truck used to transport one vehicle has the same license plate as the truck imaged moving the BUK system after the downing of MH17.

Sand

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Despite the mountain of evidence that proves Russian forces are directly engaging militarily in eastern Ukraine you still see pro Kremlin lunatics shill furiously for them and deny any involvement by Russia in the country. Whatever the Kremlin line is they will follow to the letter.

It has to be remembered, from the Kremlin perspective, the constant lies are viewed through the prism of military conflict. The British for example employed vast levels of deceit to mask the true location of Operation Overlord - but even they didn't think to deny that they were actually at war with Germany.

From the Kremlin perspective, lies and denials, no matter how paper thin serve to keep their enemies (which from their paranoid mindset essentially everyone) off balance and misdirected. How does the west react to a military attack by a power that refuses to acknowledge it is attacking the west? And how does the a rational state or group react to a state or group that simply lies about wanting peace, whilst provoking war? Whilst the West splutters about the latest nonsense spouted by the Kremlin and their shills in the RT, the Kremlin is acting. By the time the West disproves the most recent Kremlin lie, the Kremlin is telling another one.

Its a challenge Europe and the West hasn't faced on this scale since Hitler. That isn't a lazy or alarmist comparison: Putin is copying the Hitler playbook. Provoke war whilst loudly demanding peace and denouncing your opponents as warmongers. The polite, reasonable, rational, bureaucratic EU is just as ill-equipped to deal with Putin as the public schoolboys of Chamberlains government were when dealing with a brutal, cynical operator like Hitler. Its clearly very, very, very difficult for the likes of Merkel and the EU to comprehend someone who does not play by the rules or instinctively seek a compromise solution.

The only remaining question is if or when Putin will complete the imitation of Hitler and overreach. For Hitler it was the invasion of Poland after the aggression in Czechoslovakia had expended all remaining credibility for the doveish approach. Putin is nearing that credibility gap where even Merkel finally acknowledges he's not a "partner".

oldozer

New on here, but by far and away this is the best post I have seen as to the "Ukrainian" thing.

I have been on the net since the beginning.............Just not on here.......

Kudos, Kudos..............

Dozer.