Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Ren2k7

WakeUp wrote: »

all warfare is based on deception clearly the Russians are involved in this and have been since day 1. why would that surprise anyone there isnt anything surprising about that . What would be overreach in your opinion? rightly or wrongly in Putin and Russian eyes Ukraine and Georgia for that matter are red lines for them. he and Russia will do whatever they have to do to ensure neither ends up in Nato. I posted this a while back but I would be curious as to your opinion on it. this guy Matlock Reagans man in Moscow helped bring the cold war to an "end". is his opinion anyway relevant? or is it not worth even considering. because freedom or something.


http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/09/former-u-s-ambassador-ussr-u-s-nato-provoking-ukrainian-crisis.html

The agreement is still being maintained. There are no NATO forces or nuclear weapons in the former East Germany. There was never any agreement by the West not to expand into the former Soviet bloc. Besides Russia doesn't have a veto over the foreign policies of its former colonies.

WakeUp wrote: »

on another note are the Ukrainians employing barrier squads. shooting their own soldiers who are trying to surrender.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ZNcrTVNl8

Snigger. Do you work for Russia Today? Next you'll be posting videos of nuclear weapons being used by the Yukies and children executed by Banderist/Nazi/Blackwater/CIA mercenaries. Try harder next time.

Elmer Blooker

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Snigger. Do you work for Russia Today? Next you'll be posting videos of nuclear weapons being used by the Yukies and children executed by Banderist/Nazi/Blackwater/CIA mercenaries. Try harder next time.

Ws this originally shown on RT? I can't see anything on that video connecting it to RT? But an opportunity not to be missed, are you forced to read RT? I'm not but I consult it to get another side of the story from the non stop lies I'm subjected to as a RTE licence payer.
The other day RTE news informed us that Mariopol was about to be attacked, source: the Azov Battalion. A few days ago the Irish Times used a very dodgy individual named Andriy Paruiby as a "reliable source". Most people would never have heard of the Azov or Paruiby as their activities are covered up/censored in our free western media but I've heard of them by seeking an alternative news source.
Its quite amusing that you take a guy called Eliot Higgins sitting in front of a lap top in a room in Leicester seriously.
Please try to keep your reply reasonably diplomatic.

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Ws this originally shown on RT? I can't see anything on that video connecting it to RT? But an opportunity not to be missed, are you forced to read RT? I'm not but I consult it to get another side of the story from the non stop lies I'm subjected to as a RTE licence payer.
The other day RTE news informed us that Mariopol was about to be attacked, source: the Azov Battalion. A few days ago the Irish Times used a very dodgy individual named Andriy Paruiby as a "reliable source". Most people would never have heard of the Azov or Paruiby as their activities are covered up/censored in our free western media but I've heard of them by seeking an alternative news source.
Its quite amusing that you take a guy called Eliot Higgins sitting in front of a lap top in a room in Leicester seriously.
Please try to keep your reply reasonably diplomatic.

Mariupol has been under attack for weeks now its pretty common knowledge

Ren2k7

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Ws this originally shown on RT? I can't see anything on that video connecting it to RT? But an opportunity not to be missed, are you forced to read RT? I'm not but I consult it to get another side of the story from the non stop lies I'm subjected to as a RTE licence payer.
The other day RTE news informed us that Mariopol was about to be attacked, source: the Azov Battalion. A few days ago the Irish Times used a very dodgy individual named Andriy Paruiby as a "reliable source". Most people would never have heard of the Azov or Paruiby as their activities are covered up/censored in our free western media but I've heard of them by seeking an alternative news source.
Its quite amusing that you take a guy called Eliot Higgins sitting in front of a lap top in a room in Leicester seriously.
Please try to keep your reply reasonably diplomatic.

Mariupol has been under attack since the so called ceasefire with Ukrainian soldiers still being killed by Russian backed terrorists. 3 UA soldiers were murdered by the "rebels" and a further 7 wounded in the last 24 hours alone.

Ren2k7

Gatling wrote: »

Maripol has been under attack for weeks now its pretty common knowledge

Trying to explain this to pro Russia bots though can be quite challenging. They look at everything through the prism of the Putin controlled media. Russia Today, Sputnik, Pravda and even foreign outlets like LikeLeak, Zero Hedge, SANA, InfoWars, and the always reliable (lol) Global "Research".

Elmer Blooker

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Trying to explain this to pro Russia bots though can be quite challenging. They look at everything through the prism of the Putin controlled media. Russia Today, Sputnik, Pravda and even foreign outlets like LikeLeak, Zero Hedge, SANA, InfoWars, and the always reliable (lol) Global "Research".

I've never heard of SANA, thanks for that info.

BoJack Horseman

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I've never heard of SANA, thanks for that info.

Are you denying that Mariupol is coming under rebel attack?

Yes/no

Elmer Blooker

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Are you denying that Mariupol is coming under rebel attack?

Yes/no

I can find no evidence of any fighting around Mariupol since the last week of January. Answer: at the moment NO.
If I were to believe the Kyiv Post (and the usual suspects) then the answer would be YES.
edit: I just watched the headlines on BBC News 24 and no mention of Mariupol or even Ukraine, Jihadi John and Gary Glitter seem to be making the headlines, theres also something about the colour of that dress, is it blue or yellow?
So thankfully all quiet in Ukraine.

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I can find no evidence of any fighting around Mariupol since the last week of January. Answer: at the moment NO.
If I were to believe the Kyiv Post (and the usual suspects) then the answer would be YES.
edit: I just watched the headlines on BBC News 24 and no mention of Mariupol or even Ukraine, Jihadi John and Gary Glitter seem to be making the headlines, theres also something about the colour of that dress, is it blue or yellow?
So thankfully all quiet in Ukraine.

A quick google limited to the last week brings up scores of articles. Here are just two.

They certainly are pushing closer and closer to Mariupol.

Day two of no casualties for the Ukrainian army as the latest ceasefire enters its 12th day, and Kyiv is pulling its heavy weapons back from the lines hammered out at the Minsk peace talks.

However the fighting is shifting further south and fears are now that the port city of Mariupol will become the next battleground.

http://www.euronews.com/2015/02/26/ceasefire-holds-in-eastern-ukraine-except-for-mariupol-region/

While they say they (Russians) are adhering to the Minsk agreement their action say otherwise.

Pro-Russia forces deny any intention to take Mariupol, a position reiterated on Tuesday by Eduard Basurin, the deputy head of the Donetsk militia.

“We are not mounting an attack near Mariupol and we don’t plan to do so. We are carefully fulfilling the document signed by the head of the republic,” Basurin said, referring to the Minsk peace deal. “We stopped at the positions we held on 15 February.”

Also on Tuesday, however, the Donetsk militia told the Russian state news agency RIA Novosti of new gains bringing them closer to Mariupol, bragging that its forces had “liberated the [nearby] villages of Pavlopil and Pyshchevyk” on Monday night, and that “the national guard wasn’t able to dig in there”.

Photographs published on pro-Russia websites showed fighters standing outside the entry signs to both villages holding Kalashnikov assault rifles and a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.

A Ukrainian military spokesman said both villages were in the buffer zone established by the Minsk agreement and had not been held by Kiev’s forces.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/25/mariupol-next-in-the-sights-of-pro-russia-rebels-in-eastern-ukraine

PopePalpatine

Don't you know gandalf that Euronews is biased too! RT über alles!

Scofflaw

daUbiq wrote: »

Maybe you don't but most of the posters here do.. Besides, they are the main players in this conflict even if they say otherwise.

Anyway, a worthy list of american exploits linked below just to put their current stance into perspective:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authoritarian_regimes_supported_by_the_United_States

If Putin wasn't Russian they'd be supporting him.

This is basically just pointless and irrelevant whataboutery. Don't continue in this line, please.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Ren2k7

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I've never heard of SANA, thanks for that info.

Syrian Arab "News" Agency. Just as bad as Russia's (dis)information services.

Ren2k7

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Don't you know gandalf that Euronews is biased too! RT über alles!

Weirdly enough Russia (via it's state owned television network VGTRK, their equivilent of RTÉ) actually owns 17% of Euronews. As does RTÉ.

WakeUp

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

You may think invasion of weaker nations is right, most of the world disagrees & one article won't change that

show me where I said invasion of weaker nations was "right".

gandalf wrote: »

It's an opinion piece by a journalist who has consistently criticised US government actions. Any chance you can let us know what is interesting about it.

wait, so because this guy has criticised US government actions in the past that makes his opinion less relevant? US government actions are not to be criticised and doing so makes ones opinion null and void?

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Snigger. Do you work for Russia Today? Next you'll be posting videos of nuclear weapons being used by the Yukies and children executed by Banderist/Nazi/Blackwater/CIA mercenaries. Try harder next time.

nope. I work direct for the Kremlin myself they pay way better. and the bonus brown envelopes at the end of the month arent just stuffed with cash and are well worth it. Russian chicks are damn hot and they give wonderful head. what sort of money is the Kiev crowd paying these days? is it worth it? :pac:

Ukraine recruits Internet army to fight Russian trolls

"Many fronts have opened against us, and one of the crucial ones is the information front," said Ukraine's information minister Yuri Stec.

Anyone can join the virtual army through the website set up by the ministry. Enlisted "soldiers" then receive emails with tasks such as monitoring social media and taking on trolls by promoting Ukraine's messages in online discussions.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/25/technology/ukraine-russia-internet-army/

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Its quite amusing that you take a guy called Eliot Higgins sitting in front of a lap top in a room in Leicester seriously.
Please try to keep your reply reasonably diplomatic.

reasonably diplomatic youll be doing well there Elmer dont you know youre a "lunatic" a "bot" or some other nonsense like that. Had a look at this Eliot Higgins dude and whilst wikipedia is always to be taken with a pinch of salt his page is interesting. not sure if its accurate or not though +1 for any mention of Rambo. whooya. phuck yeah.

Higgins' analyses of Syrian weapons, which began as a hobby out of his home in his spare time, are now frequently cited by the press and human rights groups and have led to questions in parliament.

Higgins has no background or training in weapons and is entirely self-taught, saying that "Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo."[1] He has never been to Syria and has no friends or family there, and cannot speak or read Arabic.[4][5][6][7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins

gandalf

I can't believe people missed "Polite People" day today.

February 27 will from now on be marked in Russia as Special Operations Forces Day, according to a decree signed Thursday by President Vladimir Putin and published on the official legislative website.

.......

Answering its own question of why Feb. 27 was chosen as the day, an article in government newspaper Rossiiskaya Gazeta said: "Remember what happened and where a year ago. And how it all ended."

One year ago, mysterious troops bearing no insignia appeared in Crimea, which was shortly afterward annexed from Ukraine by Russia. The troops, who said little and declined to reveal their identity but ensured order during the annexation and subsequent referendum on joining Russia, quickly became known as "little green men" in the international media and "polite people" in Russia.

Putin initially denied that Russian troops had been dispatched to Crimea, but later admitted it.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-establishes-new-polite-people-day-in-russia-/516675.html

So there you go, this time last year they were denying it and now they are giving them a special day. I think that demonstates why the majority in West are safe in the knowledge there are a lot more "polite men" in Eastern Ukraine.

gandalf

WakeUp wrote: »

wait, so because this guy has criticised US government actions in the past that makes his opinion less relevant? US government actions are not to be criticised and doing so makes ones opinion null and void?

No but it puts his opinion piece in context given the slant of his previous articles.

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

I can't believe people missed "Polite People" day today.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-establishes-new-polite-people-day-in-russia-/516675.html

So there you go, this time last year they were denying it and now they are giving them a special day. I think that demonstates why the majority in West are safe in the knowledge there are a lot more "polite men" in Eastern Ukraine.

Vlads just taking the piss really with that now but nothing that wasnt already known. think it was these guys that were involved in Crimea, alpha group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMQ-BkwRo8Y

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2014/08/28/russias-version-of-the-navy-seals-may-be-fighting-in-ukraine/

Ren2k7

gandalf wrote: »

I can't believe people missed "Polite People" day today.



http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-establishes-new-polite-people-day-in-russia-/516675.html

So there you go, this time last year they were denying it and now they are giving them a special day. I think that demonstates why the majority in West are safe in the knowledge there are a lot more "polite men" in Eastern Ukraine.

How long before he's pinning medals and decorations to his soldiers who are pretending to be farmers and miners at the moment?

gandalf

Opposition leader shot dead tonight just before a march by the opposition against the Russian war in the Ukraine.

A leading Russian opposition politician, former Deputy Prime Minister Boris Nemtsov, has been shot dead in Moscow, Russian officials say.

He died hours after appealing for support for a march on Sunday in Moscow against the war in Ukraine.

.....

In a recent interview, Mr Nemtsov had said he feared Mr Putin would have him killed because of his opposition to the war in Ukraine.

President Putin is going to take personal control of the search for his killers :rolleyes:

It doesn't pay to ask questions in Mother Russia.

Gatling

gandalf wrote: »

Opposition leader shot dead tonight just before a march by the opposition against the Russian war in the Ukraine.



President Putin is going to take personal control of the search for his killers :rolleyes:

It doesn't pay to ask questions in Mother Russia.

You he's going to sit down to tea with the killers and laugh at there crimes

Ren2k7

gandalf wrote: »

Opposition leader shot dead tonight just before a march by the opposition against the Russian war in the Ukraine.



President Putin is going to take personal control of the search for his killers :rolleyes:

Before giving them a Presidential honour.

gandalf wrote: »

It doesn't pay to ask questions in Mother Russia.

If I was Navalny I'd be sh**ting myself.

WakeUp

so has Putin been deemed guilty already of the slaying of this politician or at least having a hand in it? on first thoughts things seem about right this guy was an outspoken critic of Putin of what he was about and what he was doing in Ukraine so yep Putin did it. yet that seems too obvious. and killed in this manner shot four times in the street, shabby. in ones own country and with the powers that be death by "suicide" or "accident" is probably the way too go a lot less hassle. taking this guy out from Putins point of view would cause a lot of problems. then again when you are as popular as Putin is and control everything why not just eliminate your opponents if they are causing you problems. if Putin wanted this guy dead why wait till now to do it and in such a manner. hmmmm. either someone took this guy out to pin it on Vlad or Vlad did it as a message something along the line of you phuck with Putin, you get dead. will probably never know for certain one way or the other who took him out. cui bono.

Ren2k7

WakeUp wrote: »

someone took this guy out to pin it on Vlad

Putrid is actually claiming this.

WakeUp

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Putrid is actually claiming this.

how so?...

WakeUp

Ren2k7 wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/boris-nemtsov-shot-dead-outspoken-putin-critic-who-had-expressed-fears-for-his-life-is-shot-dead-10076848.html
“Putin noted that this cruel killing has all the signs of a hit, and is a pure provocation.”

how does that equate to Putin "claiming" it? and lets say Putin ordered the hit and is responsible why would he do such a thing like claiming responsibility publicly?

Ren2k7

WakeUp wrote: »

how does that equate to Putin "claiming" it? and lets say Putin ordered the hit and is responsible why would he do such a thing like claiming responsibility publicly?

Reread what I wrote. Putin is claiming this hit was a false flag by the opposition who want to make Putin look like the villain here.

WakeUp

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Reread what I wrote. Putin is claiming this hit was a false flag by the opposition who want to make Putin look like the villain here.

oh ok I see what you mean now my apologies. this guy was a vocal critic of Putin for years of that there is no doubt and has recently voiced concerns from what Ive read about threats to his life. think he was under house arrest but kept leaving the house. then he gets dead. that article says several people jumped out of a car and confronted him then someone killed him. I think its one of two things a retaliation or a provocation question is which one.

WakeUp

the Chinese who are usually known and expected to not take sides per se and "mind their own business" have had a few choice words for the west which is more than unusual for them. it would appear they just publicly picked a side.

Ukraine crisis: Top Chinese diplomat backs Putin, says West should 'abandon zero-sum mentality'

China has voiced its support for Russia's handling of the Ukraine crisis, with prominent diplomat Qu Xing calling on the West to "abandon its zero-sum mentality".

According to state news agency Xinhua, the Chinese ambassador to Belgium said the West should take "the real security concerns of Russia into consideration".

Qu said the "nature and root cause" of the crisis was the "game" between Russia and western powers the United States and EU, and that a change of approach is required to resolve it.

After nearly a year of relative silence on the subject, China's intervention is striking, not least because it comes just as harsher sanctions against Moscow are being discussed.

Putin, who has spent years fostering Russia-China relations, will be pleased to have received public backing; the US will likely take seriously China's stance.

Qu was also critical of Washington's ties to Kiev, expressing concerns that the region could "become a distraction in its foreign policy".

He said: "The United States is unwilling to see its presence in any part of the world being weakened, but the fact is its resources are limited, and it will be to some extent hard work to sustain its influence in external affairs."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-top-chinese-diplomat-backs-putin-says-west-should-abandon-zerosum-mentality-10075762.html

and speaking of China , Turkey wont be integrating their Chinese built systems into Nato air defenses.

Turkey Won't Link Air Defense System to NATO

ANKARA — The Turkish government has announced that it will not integrate its planned long-range air and anti-missile defense system with NATO assets stationed in the country.

In reply to a parliamentary question motion, Defense Minister Ismet Yilmaz said Feb. 19 that the system would instead be integrated with the national systems. "It will be used without being integrated with NATO systems," Yilmaz said in a written statement.

He said that the integration of the planned system with the Turkish Armed Forces' command-and-control structure would be done locally by a company authorized by the government.

Yilmaz said that the program would be paid for by foreign financing and that there were no new bids from the contenders.

In September 2013, Turkey selected China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corp. (CPMIEC) for a $3.44 billion offer. About half of Turkey's network-based air defense picture has been paid for by NATO. The country is part of NATO's air defense ground environment. Without NATO's consent, it will be impossible for Turkey to make the planned Chinese system operable with these assets, some analysts say.

NATO and US officials have said any Chinese-built system could not be integrated with Turkey's joint air defense assets with NATO and the United States. They also have warned that any Turkish company that acts as local subcontractor in the program would face serious US sanctions because CPMIEC has been sanctioned under the Iran, North Korea and Syria Nonproliferation Act.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/weapons/2015/02/19/turkey-missile-defense-nato-integrate-china-cpmiec-aster-patriot/23667183/

Gatling

What's that now 200+ critics and journalists investigating Vlad murdered in a few years .

Gatling

Tweet from Chess grand master and political activist Garry Kasparov

“Politkovskaya was gunned down. MH17 was shot out of the sky. Now Boris is dead. As always, Kremlin will blame opposition, or CIA, whatever.”

Says it all really he'll probably blame the Ukrainians