Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

WakeUp

now that the Chinese have made their feelings clear this might give the French and the Germans on behalf of our interests ( Europe ) an extra incentive and opportunity to resist American self-interest driven attempts to arm Ukraine and escalate the conflict. in our backyard not theirs.

A German political talk show discussing the issue of resolving the crisis in Ukraine became heated Sunday evening as German experts ganged up to challenge a former US ambassador's remarks about his country's role in the conflict.

Former US ambassador to Germany John Kornblum riled up his hosts by playing down the importance of the Franco-German peace negotiations on Ukraine, stating that "Russians respect only strength, not conciliation." The ambassador noted that while "it's wonderful that Europe is doing something…nothing will be achieved without the participation of the United States." In his words, "the bottom line is that the power lies in Washington."

European Parliament President Martin Schulz quickly jumped to challenge Kornblum's view, noting that "on the contrary, everything will work out if Europeans come to an agreement with their European neighbors. The USA is not a neighbor of Russia, and this war is not occurring at the gates of the US. I want to emphasize that this is a European problem, and I believe that the United States must stay some distance away from it." Schulz added that President Barack Obama's statements about Russia losing its status as a great power are "simply wrong," and that with Russia a nuclear superpower with a permanent place at the UN Security Council, "I ask myself –what is the point of such a provocation?" Schulz voiced his confidence that "diplomacy now has a very big chance," noting that Europe has taken it upon itself to look for a solution to the crisis. "The initiative of Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande, who act on behalf of Europe, creates a platform for dialogue between the EU and Russia." He emphasized that "this is not a Russia –US dialogue, but a Russia-Europe dialogue." Journalist and former ARD Moscow correspondent Gabriel Krone-Schmalz agreed with her colleague, noting that now "the showing of strength or of weakness is not the important criteria." Rather, what's most important "is how to stop what is happening in Ukraine, as soon as possible, because people there are dying every day." Krone-Schmalz went on to note the absurdity of "arguments [presenting] Putin as distanced from reality, crazy, bloodthirsty, autistic even, instead of learning about the situation in Russia, learning the interests of the Russians.

perhaps finally if a little belatedly the Germans and French are realising that the Americans are not part of the solution but part of the problem.
http://societalsecurity.net/MediaWatch/article/german-talkshow-panel-us-official-peace-ukraine-europe-not-us

BoJack Horseman

WakeUp wrote: »

show me where I said invasion of weaker nations was "right".

You work very... veeerry hard defending it.

Its odd when someone cheers the strong attacking the weak.

In other news, A senior political opponent to Czar Shirtless was murdered today in Russia, Boris Nemtsov.

Putin's quislings rejoice!

Icepick

The Kremlin felt the need to issue an alibi but all it could come up with is this cynical statement:

“With all due respect to the memory of Boris Nemtsov, in political terms he did not pose any threat to the current Russian leadership or Vladimir Putin. If we compare popularity levels, Putin’s and the government’s ratings and so on, in general Boris Nemtsov was just a little bit more than an average citizen,”

WakeUp wrote: »

the Chinese ambassador to Belgium

That prominent Chinese representative...

nice_guy80

Surprise, surprise, Chinese back imperialist expansion

Suits them to support that agenda when they are doing the same in the China Sea area

Ren2k7

WakeUp wrote: »

the Chinese who are usually known and expected to not take sides per se and "mind their own business" have had a few choice words for the west which is more than unusual for them. it would appear they just publicly picked a side.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-top-chinese-diplomat-backs-putin-says-west-should-abandon-zerosum-mentality-10075762.html

Top Chinese diplomat?! Lol. And presumably now that they approve of parts of countries unilaterally declaring independence they will now support Taiwanese statehood, along with independence for their eastern Xinjiang and Tibetan provinces. Hmm? Oh wait, that would be "different".

aloyisious

Icepick wrote: »

The Kremlin felt the need to issue an alibi but all it could come up with is this cynical statement:



That prominent Chinese representative...

I wonder if this prominent Chinese representative was chosen to deliver the message because of this fact: NATO Headquarters is the political and administrative centre of the Alliance and the permanent home of the North Atlantic Council, NATO's senior political decision-making body. The Headquarters is located at Boulevard Leopold III, 1110 Brussels, Belgium, on the northeast perimeter of the city.

PopePalpatine

I suppose murdering Nemtsov with a gun rather than polonium gives Putin and his Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda some ability to deny involvement.

WakeUp

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

You work very... veeerry hard defending it.

Its odd when someone cheers the strong attacking the weak.

In other news, A senior political opponent to Czar Shirtless was murdered today in Russia, Boris Nemtsov.

Putin's quislings rejoice!

what are you moving the goal posts for. you said I think invading weaker nations was "right". show me were I said that please.

Icepick wrote: »

That prominent Chinese representative...

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Top Chinese diplomat?! Lol..

know much about Chinese politics and international relations lads? what do you know of Qu Xing?....

Sand

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

All these trainers will have very limited use.

A) because I'm sure the Ukrainian army still has some of its own
training is of limited use when Russian UAVs have zeroed an artillery strike right on top of you.
Or when your communications have been jammmed by Russian mobile jammers yet again & you can't radio for help.... (which is how the Ukrainian army were finally beaten at Donetsk airport).

The training gap isn't the biggest problem.
Its the massive imbalance in tech.

I'm also curious as to the value British trainers can deliver when it comes to fighting near-peer opposition. When is the last time British troops came under sustained artillery fire? Or an enemy with air superiority? Or even the ability to deny the British air support? You're going to have a situation where trainers with no experience of fighting near peer opposition will be training Ukrainians with more real hands on-experience than the trainer has. A lot of what would be British best practise is going to be hopelessly unrealistic for the Ukrainian military which is going to need dirty and cheap effective solutions. I hope whoever the British (and the Polish for that matter) send is smart enough to learn as well as to teach.

IIRC, the British took a similar approach to training the Afghan military with British Captains training Afghan Colonels. The Afghans had been fighting wars in Afghanistan for most of their adult lives and had in many cases received Soviet training already. It was unsurprisingly seen as a bit of a disaster.

Gatling

Can't remember if this has already been posted.

But it seems russia isn't happy about the unification of East and west Germany at all 25 years a little too late

http://www.dw.de/russia-mulls-censuring-annexation-of-east-germany-some-25-years-late/a-18221927


http://uk.businessinsider.com/russia-considers-condemning-the-annexation-of-east-germany-2015-1?r=US


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-considers-bizarre-proposal-to-condemn-west-germanys-1989-annexation-of-east-germany-10014373.html


http://www.newsweek.com/bid-condemn-annexation-east-germany-russian-parliament-302785

wonder if the little green men are thinking of holidays in baveria

Icepick

WakeUp wrote: »

know much about Chinese politics and international relations lads? what do you know of Qu Xing?....

Do you want to live in a totalitarian country?

Ren2k7

Gatling wrote: »

Can't remember if this has already been posted.

But it seems russia isn't happy about the unification of East and west Germany at all 25 years a little too late

http://www.dw.de/russia-mulls-censuring-annexation-of-east-germany-some-25-years-late/a-18221927


http://uk.businessinsider.com/russia-considers-condemning-the-annexation-of-east-germany-2015-1?r=US


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-considers-bizarre-proposal-to-condemn-west-germanys-1989-annexation-of-east-germany-10014373.html


http://www.newsweek.com/bid-condemn-annexation-east-germany-russian-parliament-302785

wonder if the little green men are thinking of holidays in baveria

Well they signed and ratified the final status agreement in relation to Germany, establishing the final peace treaty between the Allied Powers and Germany. Russia cannot go back on a treaty they signed. They can whinge and moan all they like, it doesn't mean a damned thing.

BoJack Horseman

Icepick wrote: »

Do you want to live in a totalitarian country?

When you spend all day defending them, I'm gonna say, yes, yes he does.

The irony of having being afforded the freedom to defend tyrants who spit on those freedoms seems beyond some.

kksaints

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0228/683563-lithuania-united-states-natural-gas/

Interesting to see a Baltic state try and reduce its gas dependence on Russian gas by sealing a deal with a US company. Cant see the Russians being too happy with this.

gandalf

If you want to see the disgusting propaganda angle the Russian Media are making out of the murder of Boris Nemtsov. It's obvious that his opposition the Putin's misadventures in the Ukraine and the report he was working on proving it is the reason behind this murder.

In this regard, it raises a question of who wanted Nemtsov, an opposition politician, dead. One should pay attention to how such crimes are organized in various countries of the world.

......

Over the past two weeks, similar crimes to trigger massive protests of the population have been orchestrated in Argentina and Venezuela.

It is worth noting that such crimes occur on the eve of mass protests against the regimes that do not find approval in Washington.

http://english.pravda.ru/news/russia/28-02-2015/129932-boris_nemtsov-0/

Shurimgreat

gandalf wrote: »

If you want to see the disgusting propaganda angle the Russian Media are making out of the murder of Boris Nemtsov. It's obvious that his opposition the Putin's misadventures in the Ukraine and the report he was working on proving it is the reason behind this murder.



http://english.pravda.ru/news/russia/28-02-2015/129932-boris_nemtsov-0/

It's all a fairy tale to them.

Russia, home of the greatest fiction writers in history, no-one weaves a tale better.

WakeUp

Icepick wrote: »

Do you want to live in a totalitarian country?

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

When you spend all day defending them, I'm gonna say, yes, yes he does.

The irony of having being afforded the freedom to defend tyrants who spit on those freedoms seems beyond some.

seriously can you have a different opinion or take on events on this thread without having a partiality to Vlads nutsack. or is such a thing mutually exclusive. now Im defending tyrants thats a new one. suppose its a tad more creative than bot, shill, lunatic, stupid so on. add a few more syllables to the insolence lads. at least try and be impressive with your attempts.

Ice, why would I want to live in a totalitarian country and why are you even asking me that? tell me about Qu Xing..you were saying....

Bojack, thats a nice trick you got going on there would you mind showing me how you do it sometime. the one where you can read my mind and speak on my behalf. defending a tyrant how does that work? your seer like ability to peer into my mind is intriguing nonetheless. tea leaves right? or do you have a crystal ball somewhere. and you still havent shown me where you said I think its "right" for weaker nations to be invaded????. third time lucky maybe any chance you could show me? or will you continue to ignore it yet speak on my behalf with your seer like superpowers and label me a defender of tyrants. remember those syllables lads up your sh1t a bit will you please its all a bit bromidic at this stage now.

WakeUp

should really be compulsory required viewing for the powers that be that "run" the planet no matter which part of the earth they originate from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug-DJtvHFE0

Icepick

Russia reverting back to the Soviet Union day-by-day.
Foreigners Visiting Russia Required to Submit Detailed Travel Plans

Icepick

WakeUp wrote: »

seriously can you have a different opinion or take on events on this thread without having a partiality to Vlads nutsack.

Judging by your posts, in your case anyway, the two things go together like salt and pepper.

stuar

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Wake up sheeple and stop allowing yourselves to be force-fed propaganda formula from the western warlords responsible for this entire mess.

I'd post links but in true Putin-loving style.....well, that just simply wouldn't be my style. :rolleyes:

Anybody still believing the west have no responsibility in the current mess in Ukraine need look a little closer, US/NATO encroaching on Russia, US interference in numerous countries throughout the past number of decades, taking down democratically elected governments to install their preferred puppets.............

The US had their sights on Ukraine over 10 years ago, and built up momentum ever since, now imagine the shoe were on the other foot and Russia wanted to place missiles in Cuba, Mexico, topple the Canadian government etc, how would the "Free World" see it then?

US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev
26 November 2004

But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the two big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box.

Richard Miles, the US ambassador in Belgrade, played a key role. And by last year, as US ambassador in Tbilisi, he repeated the trick in Georgia, coaching Mikhail Saakashvili in how to bring down Eduard Shevardnadze.

Ten months after the success in Belgrade, the US ambassador in Minsk, Michael Kozak, a veteran of similar operations in central America, notably in Nicaragua, organised a near identical campaign to try to defeat the Belarus hardman, Alexander Lukashenko.

That one failed. "There will be no Kostunica in Belarus," the Belarus president declared, referring to the victory in Belgrade.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa


'Meddling' In Ukraine
Democracy is not an American plot.
December 21, 2004

Did Americans meddle in the internal affairs of Ukraine? Yes. The American agents of influence would prefer different language to describe their activities -- democratic assistance, democracy promotion, civil society support, etc. -- but their work, however labeled, seeks to influence political change in Ukraine. The U.S. Agency for International Development, the National Endowment for Democracy and a few other foundations sponsored certain U.S. organizations, including Freedom House, the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute, the Solidarity Center, the Eurasia Foundation, Internews and several others to provide small grants and technical assistance to Ukrainian civil society. The European Union, individual European countries and the Soros-funded International Renaissance Foundation did the same.

In the run-up to Ukraine's presidential vote this fall, these American and European organizations concentrated their resources on creating conditions for free and fair elections. Western organizations provided training and some direct assistance to the Committee of Ukrainian Voters, Ukraine's first-rate election-monitoring organization. Western funders pooled resources to sponsor two exit polls. Western foundations also provided assistance to independent media. Freedom House and others supported Znayu and the Freedom of Choice Coalition, whose members included the high-profile Pora student movement. And through their conferences and publications, these American organizations supported the flow of knowledge and contacts between Ukrainian democrats and their counterparts in Slovakia, Croatia, Romania and Serbia. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe coordinated with several other European, U.S. and Canadian organizations to organize a major international monitoring effort of the election process. Formally, this help was nonpartisan, because the aim was to aid the electoral process. Yet most of these groups believed that a free and fair election would mean victory for Viktor Yushchenko. And they were right.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15131-2004Dec20.html


The Arab Spring: 'A Virus That Will Attack Moscow and Beijing
NOV 19 2011
Former presidential candidate and US Senator John McCain's comment was a biting kicker at opening dinner of 2011 Halifax International Security Forum.

But then sensing that a crowd of generals, admirals, defense ministers, and national security policy practitioners prefer gravitas to slapstick, McCain dropped a pretty big zinger on the crowd.

He said, "A year ago, Ben-Ali and Gaddafi were not in power. Assad won't be in power this time next year. This Arab Spring is a virus that will attack Moscow and Beijing." McCain then walked off the stage.

Comparing the Arab Spring to a virus is not new for the Senator -- but to my knowledge, coupling Russia and China to the comment is.

Senator McCain's framing reflects a triumphalism bouncing around at this conference. It sees the Arab Spring as a product of Western design -- and potentially as a tool to take on other non-democratic governments.

At an earlier session, Senator Udall said that those who believed that the Arab Spring was an organic revolution from within these countries were wrong -- and that the West and NATO in particular had been primary drivers of results in Libya -- and that the West had helped animate and move affairs in Egypt. Udall provocatively added Syria to that list as well.

But John McCain's biting kicker last night would have been seriously jarring to any Chinese or Russian defense types who might have been in the room. They seem to be the only ones not here.

McCain may be right that fake democracies like Russia and authoritarian regimes like China may face the same kinds of disruptions in their locks on power that Gaddafi and Ben-Ali did, but to frame this possibility as objective -- which was the tone of McCain's comment -- seriously complicates the global security picture particularly when the US and Europe are hoping to draw Russia and China into a much more cooperative arrangement confining Iran's options in the world.

It's tough to partner with regimes on one front while essentially calling for their collapse and downfall on another.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/11/the-arab-spring-a-virus-that-will-attack-moscow-and-beijing/248762/

Ren2k7

gandalf wrote: »

If you want to see the disgusting propaganda angle the Russian Media are making out of the murder of Boris Nemtsov. It's obvious that his opposition the Putin's misadventures in the Ukraine and the report he was working on proving it is the reason behind this murder.



http://english.pravda.ru/news/russia/28-02-2015/129932-boris_nemtsov-0/

A false flag by the opposition is the theory now being increasingly promoted by the Russian state. :rolleyes:

WakeUp

Icepick wrote: »

Judging by your posts, in your case anyway, the two things go together like salt and pepper.

well then address my posts why dont you. instead of me. Qu Xing? talk to me about him....

TerrorFirmer

A link from 2004 discussing US influence in promoting opposition against what that very article refers to as 'anti-democratic regimes'.

Another one discussing the same issue in 2004, promoting 'free and fair elections' in Ukraine.

They're good reads, contain widely known information and are also not the links I was talking about - but of course you know that very well.

How about some links from over the past year from reputable news organizations that support claims being made on this thread - you know, the ones that claim that the Kiev government is a US funded Nazi junta, referendum in Crimea was transparent and legitimate, etc.

AbusesToilets

God forbid a country try and promote free and open elections.

Icepick

WakeUp wrote: »

well then address my posts why dont you. instead of me. Qu Xing? talk to me about him....

No reason to. Of course a representative of another totalitarian regime is going to have dubious and cynical opinions.
But if somebody thinks that China is going to team up with Russia against the West, they are delusional.

WakeUp

Icepick wrote: »

No reason to. Of course a representative of another totalitarian regime is going to have dubious and cynical opinions.
But if somebody thinks that China is going to team up with Russia against the West, they are delusional.

I dont think you know much about China, Chinese politics or Chinese international relations. have you been paying attention. as if you did you would understand that when somebody like Qu Xing or any other foreign based Chinese diplomat for that matter makes a statement like he did then its certainly to be taken note of. not derided as you did by insinuating that he was a nobody. which says it all really. yet even though your sciolism is obviously and forwardly apparent your rudimentary reply to me, "delusional", is still amusing.

in other news...

Russia Warns NATO: Any Threat In Ukraine Will See Military Response

As Russia announces the expansion of its Navy by 50 vessels this year, including two new nuclear-powered submarines and an aircraft carrier, it appears NATO's sabre-rattling has drawn a response/threat/warning. Following British plans to send military 'advisers' into Ukraine (which NATO has stated are not confirmed), TASS reports, Russia's NATO envoy, Alexander Grushko, warns Russia will take all measures against possible NATO threat in Ukraine, adding that Russia’s response may include military measures.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-02/russia-warns-nato-any-threat-ukraine-will-see-military-response

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

I dont think you know much about China, Chinese politics or Chinese international relations. have you been paying attention. as if you did you would understand that when somebody like Qu Xing or any other foreign based Chinese diplomat for that matter makes a statement like he did then its certainly to be taken note of. not derided as you did by insinuating that he was a nobody. which says it all really. yet even though your sciolism is obviously and forwardly apparent your rudimentary reply to me, "delusional", is still amusing.

in other news...


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-02/russia-warns-nato-any-threat-ukraine-will-see-military-response

They have already invaded parts of Ukraine they wont go any further .

They can threaten all they like ukraine sooner or later they will get a kicking .
Wonder if they learned there lesson from Afghanistan .

Icepick

WakeUp wrote: »

I dont think you know much about China, Chinese politics or Chinese international relations. have you been paying attention. as if you did you would understand that when somebody like Qu Xing or any other foreign based Chinese diplomat for that matter makes a statement like he did then its certainly to be taken note of.

Why do you want to side with yet another totalitarian regime?

WakeUp

Icepick wrote: »

Why do you want to side with yet another totalitarian regime?

I mean what sort of reply/question is that? how am I "siding" with them explain that to me....