Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

WakeUp

Gatling wrote: »

Don't believe that for one minute ,

I'm talking about Nato and the combined Baltic states ,
It's not insane russians are not as good as some on here are suggesting the majority of there forces are conscripts .
Faced with modern and extremely well trained forces the fight won't be the one sided affair your fearing

yeah its insane. fighting Russians on their border. thats insane.the "combined" baltic states they are three countries? and they are already Nato members. where did I say it would be a one sided affair? show me where I said that..you must be another seers or mind reader with some of the things you come out with.

Icepick

WakeUp wrote: »

Why are Nato troops being sent into a non- Nato member country.

Because a sovereign country invited them.
Do you have a problem with that?

Gatling

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Which countries would be providing these "modern and extremely well trained forces"?

France ,Germany ,Belgium ,Italy shall I go on

WakeUp

Icepick wrote: »

Because a sovereign country invited them.
Do you have a problem with that?

it doesnt matter if I have a problem with it or not its a dangerous and silly thing to do and will be viewed as a provocation at a minimum by the Russians. Ukraine - that non EU non Nato member. US battalions in Ukraine knowing the Russian position. madness.

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

it doesnt matter if I have a problem with it or not its a dangerous and silly thing to do and will be viewed as a provocation at a minimum by the Russians. Ukraine - that non EU non Nato member. US battalions in Ukraine knowing the Russian position. madness.

So it's ok for russia to illegally occupy east ukraine .
But wrong for ukraine to ask for help for other countries to train there army

WakeUp

Gatling wrote: »

So it's ok for russia to illegally occupy east ukraine .
But wrong for ukraine to ask for help for other countries to train there army

who said anything about it being ok for Russia to illegally occupy east Ukraine?why are you moving the goal posts, you arent even shifting them slightly youve just drop kicked them out of the park with the above. you stated something on my behalf now could you please be so kind as to back up what you have stated? are you capable of backing up what you have stated? if you arent just say so and Ill leave it at that.

Timberrrrrrrr

Gatling wrote: »

France ,Germany ,Belgium ,Italy shall I go on

You think their troops are better trained than the Russians?

TerrorFirmer

Russia couldn't afford a conflict.

I agree that the military of Western Europe isn't physically up to much either to be fair, but it's stronger than Russia.

The US however spends about 6 to 7 times what Russia does on military - and can easily afford to spend more as well. Russia cannot. It can't even afford the army it has now. Russia not only spends about 15% of the US does on military....it also looses about a fifth of that figure AGAIN to corruption.

Russia is not this powerhouse that pro-Russian's love to make it out to be. That old cold war Russia? It's gone....get over it.

They could barely establish Air superiority over the Georgian army! It's old, and it's creaking. It would fall apart eventually, as would the country itself, in the event of a serious military confrontation.

Putin is pretty much taking a leaf from Hitlers playbook from the 1930's. He's gambling on the fact that the West is just reluctant to take a strong stance for fear of escalation. If European nations had stood up to Hitler in the second hand of the 1930's, WW2 would never have happened.

Gatling

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You think their troops are better trained than the Russians?

Absolutely they are

Elmer Blooker

Gatling wrote: »

Because they asked for help .

It's the Russians that are unstable

would you like to tell me who "they" are, who exactly is in control of Ukraine?
Is it Poroshenko, is it Yats, is it Paruiby, is it the militias, is it the Interior Ministry???

Gatling

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Tells me all i need to know about your experience in military matters.

25 years of studying conflicts and military history ,
Hopefully going to to do a full. degree in history next year in maynooth

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

would you like to tell me who "they" are, who exactly is in control of Ukraine?
Is it Poroshenko, is it Yats, is it Paruiby, is it the militias, is it the Interior Ministry???

Ukrainian government .

Not to be confused with the pro russian gangsters who fleeced the country for billions before running back to Moscow

househero

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Putin is pretty much taking a leaf from Hitlers playbook from the 1930's. He's gambling on the fact that the West is just reluctant to take a strong stance for fear of escalation.

Which is why the whole situation is so dangerous.

We should have stopped him when Georgia needed our help. We ignored them like the Jews in WW2... 'It will be you next'

WakeUp

Colonel Foster , commander of the 173rd >>"If Russia will invade Ukraine, why would we not think they will invade the US next"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s7Dpm5RyJo

I mean what can you say to that. thats just off the wall. the colonel should be sanctioned. he isnt right. if he really believes that Russia might try and "invade the US next". seriously.

Why Are Dozens Of High Ranking Officers Being Purged From The U.S. Military?

Since Barack Obama has been in the White House, high ranking military officers have been removed from their positions at a rate that is absolutely unprecedented. Things have gotten so bad that a number of retired generals are publicly speaking out about the “purge” of the U.S. military that they believe is taking place. As you will see below, dozens of highly decorated military leaders have been dismissed from their positions over the past few years.

So why is this happening? When I was growing up, my father was an officer in the U.S. Navy. And what is going on right now is absolutely crazy – especially during a time of peace. Is there a deliberate attempt to “reshape” the military and remove those that don’t adhere to the proper “viewpoints”? Does someone out there feel a need to get officers that won’t “cooperate” out of the way? Throughout world history, whatever comes next after a “military purge” is never good.

http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/01/17/dozens-high-ranking-officers-purged-u-s-military/

TerrorFirmer

Vice did a good interview with a guy from Janes a while back.

The Russian armed forces have a huge stockpile of equipment but anyone who thinks they're better equipped technologically or better trained than western armies are definitely operating with blinkers on.

Has there been much of a shift in relative military power between the US and Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union? And has Putin made Russia more powerful militarily in recent years?

Yes, there definitely has been. Whereas the US has reaffirmed its doctrine based on tri-service [army, navy, air force] interoperability coupled with investment into C4ISR platforms [computers and surveillance, basically], there had been no serious efforts to do the same in Russia, at least until 2008.

The short conflict with Georgia in August 2008, which was also called the last war of the 21st century, showed that in terms of wider military capabilities Russia was years, if not decades, behind the US. When, in 2008, the US could easily deploy a significant number of UAVs [drones] over Afghanistan and Iraq, Russian UAVs used in Georgia were reportedly so loud that they could be heard from miles away. As you can imagine, the quality of imagery delivered was not great either. As a result, Russian UAVs were declared useless.

So the decision to get involved in that tiff with Georgia could have backfired on Putin?
In a way... It became clear that Russian armed forces needed bigger investment and that the country's defense industry was unable to match Western-produced equipment. To an extent this was rectified by the procurement of UAVs from Israel, amphibious vessels from France, and multipurpose vehicles from Italy. Although, for various reasons, Russia decided to stop importing foreign military equipment.

So where does all that leave them?
A military reform that followed in the immediate aftermath of August 2008 is seeking to introduce new quality, both in terms of equipment and leadership, to Russia's armed forces and completely transform them into a modern, agile, and easily deployable fighting force. It looks nice on paper, but the reality is that they're still unable to deliver top-notch equipment. Delays pile up, corruption is still a significant problem, hazing among personnel is prevalent, and the troops are poorly trained.

Icepick

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Russia is not this powerhouse that pro-Russian's love to make it out to be. That old cold war Russia? It's gone....get over it.

That old cold war Russia that couldn't even hold Afghanistan.

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

Colonel Foster , commander of the 173rd >>"If Russia will invade Ukraine,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s7Dpm5RyJo

That a an excellent piece by Colonel Foster actually .

If russia will invade ,
If.
Well fact there already in ukraine in fairly substantial numbers of both men ,equipment and vehicles .

As has been repeatedly discussed russia hasn't the testicular fortitude to push and totally take ukraine and or the Baltic states .

PopePalpatine

Icepick wrote: »

That old cold war Russia that couldn't even hold Afghanistan.

Ah, to be fair Afghanistan has been called "the graveyard of empires" - it's resisted British and Soviet attempts at occupation (among others, I'm assuming) and the current US-friendly government looks shaky.

WakeUp

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Bellingcats creator Elliot Higgins (who started off by exposing the Assad's use of chemical weapons and barrel bombs in its war against his own people) has come in for a torrent of criticism and abuse from Russian state media, making disparaging comments about him being unemployed and always referring to him as a "so called citizen journalist". And yet it doesn't stop Russia Today from using any old lunatic wingnut with a Skype connection as their primary source.

What's your obsession with wingnut, monster raving loony sites?

you say that a lot dont you.

"Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo."

Eliot Higgins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins

:pac::pac:

Gatling wrote: »

That a an excellent piece by Colonel Foster actually .

If russia will invade ,
If.
Well fact there already in ukraine in fairly substantial numbers of both men ,equipment and vehicles .

As has been repeatedly discussed russia hasn't the testicular fortitude to push and totally take ukraine and or the Baltic states .

"If" Russia will invade. I mean seriously Russia invading the US. what planet is the colonel from. maybe he had a temperature or had just hit his head or something when he came out with that. maybe.

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

you say that a lot dont you.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins

:pac::pac:



"If" Russia will invade. I mean seriously Russia invading the US. what planet is the colonel from. maybe he had a temperature or had just hit his head or something when he came out with that. maybe.

Where exactly did he say russia invade the us must have sneezed and missed it.

Sure it's only a few miles between the 2

conditioned games

So much misery and destruction has been spread around the world by the USA's quest to maintain their corrupt grip on power and wealth via the petrodollar and worlds reserve currency. They wont be missed when they go the way of the British Empire before this decade is over but the question is how much more poision and death will they inflict on the world.

Gatling

conditioned games wrote: »

So much misery and destruction has been spread around the world by the USA's quest to maintain their corrupt grip on power and wealth via the petrodollar and worlds reserve currency. They wont be missed when they go the way of the British Empire before this decade is over but the question is how much more poision and death will they inflict on the world.

Yep keep dreaming the dream

Scofflaw

conditioned games wrote: »

So much misery and destruction has been spread around the world by the USA's quest to maintain their corrupt grip on power and wealth via the petrodollar and worlds reserve currency. They wont be missed when they go the way of the British Empire before this decade is over but the question is how much more poision and death will they inflict on the world.

This is irrelevant whataboutery, about which on-thread warnings have already been issued.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Sobko

Gatling wrote: »

That a an excellent piece by Colonel Foster actually .

If russia will invade ,
If.
Well fact there already in ukraine in fairly substantial numbers of both men ,equipment and vehicles .

As has been repeatedly discussed russia hasn't the testicular fortitude to push and totally take ukraine and or the Baltic states .

This is something you are likely to hear on Fox News. Seriously your views on this whole mess is distrurbing.

Gatling

Sobko wrote: »

This is something you are likely to hear on Fox News. Seriously your views on this whole mess is distrurbing.

I'll say it again russia cant or won't go further than east ukraine .
There sitting there with this whole idea they can divide and total take the Nato alliance apart .
It's dramatic posturing by putin and the kremlin oh look the russian are coming everyone panic ,
Fact of the matter is Russia.can ill afford any large scale conflict on multiple fronts .

Yes there military is modernising but with a 40+ year time scale by which stage putin will be either dead or in a prison for corruption and abuse of power .
Russia are a one trick pony

Sobko

Gatling wrote: »

I'll say it again russia cant or won't go further than east ukraine .
There sitting there with this whole idea they can divide and total take the Nato alliance apart .
It's dramatic posturing by putin and the kremlin oh look the russian are coming everyone panic ,
Fact of the matter is Russia.can ill afford any large scale conflict on multiple fronts .

Yes there military is modernising but with a 40+ year time scale by which stage putin will be either dead or in a prison for corruption and abuse of power .
Russia are a one trick pony

Is that the whole country? Or just your opinion on the country?

AbusesToilets

WakeUp wrote: »

http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/01/17/dozens-high-ranking-officers-purged-u-s-military/

The US military would be well served by expunging a large percentage of higher ranking (O-5 and above) officers. They are incredibly top heavy organisationally, leading to ridiculous levels of bureaucracy and institutional malaise.

The current issue relative to personnel is that there are thousands of combat experienced NCOs and junior ranked officers being forced out, either directly through personnel boards or indirectly through punitive and restrictive policies. That has the potential to damage the fighting strength of the force long term.

AbusesToilets

As to the US training with the Ukraine provoking Russia, so what? What are they going to do about it? As many have stated in this thread, neither NATO or Russia is apt to seek direct conflict, given the likely end-state of nuclear annihilation.

This whole argument concerning Russia taking umbrage at the Ukraine's temerity to seek Western assistance puts me in mind of the modern social environment, where to offend a particular group (be they muslims, feminists, creationists, conservatives or what have you) with your expressed views is seen as a grave crime.

Scofflaw

AbusesToilets wrote:

The US military would be well served by expunging a large percentage of higher ranking (O-5 and above) officers.

Well, they'd be a century behind Russia on that one...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Ren2k7

WakeUp wrote: »

you say that a lot dont you.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins

:pac::pac:



"If" Russia will invade. I mean seriously Russia invading the US. what planet is the colonel from. maybe he had a temperature or had just hit his head or something when he came out with that. maybe.

Eliot Higgins is a far more reliable and authoritative source than Zero Cred, Info Wars, Global "Research", and the rest of the moonbat sites you link to. His intel is of an extremely high quality and frequently cited by many international news networks.

I realise you're here to bat for your heroes Russia, but linking to these bonkers websites doesn't do anything to lend credence to your arguments.