Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

ZeroThreat

Jonny7 wrote: »

Then which media do you trust, where do you get your news? how do you know what is going on in the world?

I get my information from the people running the whole show - ie. Illuminati & Bilderbergs, Rothschild etc.....


:cool:

tomh903

Aaaa Christ... Apparently Russia are after test launching nuclear missiles and BBC are reporting that a Ukrainian Navy ship was attacked.

bumper234

Yanks new about the missile launch, more sabre rattling than anything hopefully

bobcoffee

"Russia test-fires long-range missile amid tension over Ukraine

Russia said it had successfully test-fired an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM), with tensions high over its seizure of control in the Crimea and its threat to send more forces to its neighbour Ukraine.

The Strategic Rocket Forces launched an RS-12M Topol missile from the southerly Astrakhan region near the Caspian Sea and the dummy warhead hit its target at a proving ground in Kazakhstan, the state-run news agency RIA cited Defence Ministry spokesman Igor Yegorov as saying. [Reuters]"

Aljazeera live blog

WakeUp

Even if the US and other countries had notice of the test Putin is a proper kunt considering whats happening at the moment for letting the test take place. Absolutely no need for that no need at all. I notice in the reports it states the purpose of the launch was to test "the advanced payload of the intercontinental ballistic missile". Not the boost phase or flight path or navigation or something like that but the payload. Fck that sh1t. There was no need to one test the missile and two tell the world you were testing its payload, no need at all.

nyarlothothep

WakeUp wrote: »

Even if the US and other countries had notice of the test Putin is a proper kunt considering whats happening at the moment for letting the test take place. Absolutely no need for that no need at all. I notice in the reports it states the purpose of the launch was to test "the advanced payload of the intercontinental ballistic missile". Not the boost phase or flight path or navigation or something like that but the payload. Fck that sh1t. There was no need to one test the missile and two tell the world you were testing its payload, no need at all.

My guess is it's psychological warfare. It reads like macho posturing and don't fck with Russia because we're a bit of loose canon and still strong. Muscle flexing.

bobcoffee

Canada's Prime Minister Stephen Harper has ordered the suspension of joint military exercises with Russia, over Moscow's troop intervention in Ukraine's Crimea region.

"I have this morning directed that, effective immediately, all planned bilateral activities between the Canadian Armed Forces and the military of the Russian Federation be suspended," Harper said in a statement.

This includes an annual drill that last year saw Russia, Canada and the United States scramble fighter jets to intercept a hijacked commercial airliner.

A Russian Tupolev, an A-50 Beriev and Sukhoi fighter jets, as well as US AWACS and Canadian CF-18 Hornets were used in the simulation.

Meanwhile in the House of Commons, Harper renewed criticisms of Russia for its intervention in Ukraine, drawing parallels with Nazi Germany.

Three percent of Canadians, or 1.2 million people, trace their roots to Ukraine.

Conmaicne Mara

WakeUp wrote: »

Even if the US and other countries had notice of the test Putin is a proper kunt considering whats happening at the moment for letting the test take place. Absolutely no need for that no need at all. I notice in the reports it states the purpose of the launch was to test "the advanced payload of the intercontinental ballistic missile". Not the boost phase or flight path or navigation or something like that but the payload. Fck that sh1t. There was no need to one test the missile and two tell the world you were testing its payload, no need at all.

If memory serves me correctly didn't USA conduct some type of missile test during the Cuban missile crisis?

bumper234

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

If memory serves me correctly didn't USA conduct some type of missile test during the Cuban missile crisis?

China and North Korea do it all the time too, It's a reminder that they have the technology (like people need to be reminded ) and capability.

Reekwind

nyarlothothep wrote: »

My guess is it's psychological warfare. It reads like macho posturing and don't fck with Russia because we're a bit of loose canon and still strong. Muscle flexing.

Either that or it's a routine test that was planned and communicated in advance

bumper234 wrote:

China and North Korea do it all the time too, It's a reminder that they have the technology (like people need to be reminded ) and capability.

Indeed, because the US never conducts any missile tests at all

bobcoffee

@JohnKerry arriving now Paris brought Ukraine's foreign minister with him to talks and will try to engineer meeting with Russian FM

very interesting indeed, did not think John Kerry could even attempt to do something solid after his news interview a few days ago.

Conmaicne Mara

bumper234 wrote: »

China and North Korea do it all the time too, It's a reminder that they have the technology (like people need to be reminded ) and capability.

NK launched a short range missile yesterday or day before I think. They must be feeling ignored.

bumper234

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

NK launched a short range missile yesterday or day before I think. They must be feeling ignored.

Kim will wear his high heels down with all of the pacing and foot stamping if the attention is not back on him soon.

Conmaicne Mara

bumper234 wrote: »

Kim will wear his high heels down with all of the pacing and foot stamping if the attention is not back on him soon.

He should invade Russia, that would do it.

Godge

Jonny7 wrote: »

Then which media do you trust, where do you get your news? how do you know what is going on in the world?

Probably something like this.

http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm

Fully free from US influence.

K-9

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

If memory serves me correctly didn't USA conduct some type of missile test during the Cuban missile crisis?

Mod:

That's over 50 years ago and we had WW2 brought into it earlier, Northern Ireland even got a mention IIRC!

Seriously, there's no need to drag up events from when JFK was President, or the Nazis and Stalin in power as happened previously on this thread.

It's a topical thread, but as mentioned in previous mod warnings, this isn't a thread to post every single grievance against the US/Israel or indeed Russia/USSR.

Otherwise, we end up in the same sides throwing mud at each other, while the relevant, newsworthy and informative posts get lost.

robindch

bobcoffee wrote: »

"Russia test-fires long-range missile amid tension over Ukraine [...] the dummy warhead hit its target at a proving ground in Kazakhstan [...]

I'm sure the Kazakhstanis don't need to worry - the missile was probably just dressed up to look like a Russian one.

Iwasfrozen

Godge wrote: »

Probably something like this.

http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm

Fully free from US influence.

Good Lord, htm! :O

nyarlothothep

Reekwind wrote: »

Either that or it's a routine test that was planned and communicated in advance

Indeed, because the US never conducts any missile tests at all

I agree, if there wasn't a Russian incursion it wouldn't have the same impact. I think as Wakeup said, given the context it could have been delayed though I presume even delaying a launch would cost a lot of money so it would be killing two birds with one stone for Putin, namely going ahead as planned with a launch and resurrecting the spirit of cold war anxieties. (Not sure how anxious high-ups in the US administration would be but it could have an effect at least on some level).

aloyisious

RTE interviewed a Russian gent this morning on the Ukrainian situation. His response was that Russian involvement was due to Nazis and Anti-semites taking over the Ukrainian Govt, the Ukrainians invading the Crimea. He made a boo-boo in part of that, using the word Kremlin instead of Crimea, realizing what he'd done and then apologizing "Sorry, I meant Crimea". The Ukrainian troops going to their own base was a provocation. He used the word Nazi repeatedly to describe Ukrainians in their own country, reminding the interviewer that China was in agreement with Putin, that the EU was broke financially, that the US VP was inciting unrest and backing the Nazi-Ukrainian actions, as distinct with Mr Putin, who behaved and spoke calmly about the situation. Basically: we hold the purse-strings and will do whatever we want. The attempted return to their own base yesterday by Ukrainian troops was a provocation, with them being likened to invaders and Nazis. I guess the gent was delighted to speak his mind freely over the airwaves. He totally failed to acknowledge that fact that the troops were Ukrainian, as was the new Govt in Kiev.

In regard to the Nazis, he didn't mention and was not asked about, the practice of Russians walking about Russian Cities, incl Moscow, waving the Nazi Swastika flag freely, something I thought would stick in the throat of Russians and be an unthinkable action, given how Russia was treated by Nazis in WW2.

RTE is just reporting that Ukrainian Police have moved into a Govt building in another Ukrainian City, in an area likely to follow Ethnic-Russian likes and expelled the people who took it over and few days ago. The Police also reportedly removed a Russian flag put up on the building by the occupiers.

Jonny7

aloyisious wrote: »

RTE interviewed a Russian gent this morning on the Ukrainian situation. His response was that Russian involvement was due to Nazis and Anti-semites taking over the Ukrainian Govt, the Ukrainians invading the Crimea. He made a boo-boo in part of that, using the word Kremlin instead of Crimea, realizing what he'd done and then apologizing "Sorry, I meant Crimea". The Ukrainian troops going to their own base was a provocation. He used the word Nazi repeatedly to describe Ukrainians in their own country, reminding the interviewer that China was in agreement with Putin, that the EU was broke financially, that the US VP was inciting unrest and backing the Nazi-Ukrainian actions, as distinct with Mr Putin, who behaved and spoke calmly about the situation. Basically: we hold the purse-strings and will do whatever we want. The attempted return to their own base yesterday by Ukrainian troops was a provocation, with them being likened to invaders and Nazis. I guess the gent was delighted to speak his mind freely over the airwaves. He totally failed to acknowledge that fact that the troops were Ukrainian, as was the new Govt in Kiev.

In regard to the Nazis, he didn't mention and was not asked about, the practice of Russians walking about Russian Cities, incl Moscow, waving the Nazi Swastika flag freely, something I thought would stick in the throat of Russians and be an unthinkable action, given how Russia was treated by Nazis in WW2.

RTE is just reporting that Ukrainian Police have moved into a Govt building in another Ukrainian City, in an area likely to follow Ethnic-Russian likes and expelled the people who took it over and few days ago. The Police also reportedly removed a Russian flag put up on the building by the occupiers.

They've been whipped up by a lot of domestic propaganda in fairness

Hopefully the lack of jackbooted parades and the calmness of Kiev at the mo will filter through to them eventually

jmayo

Jonny7 wrote: »

Then which media do you trust, where do you get your news? how do you know what is going on in the world?

Jim Corr ?

bobcoffee wrote: »

"Russia test-fires long-range missile amid tension over Ukraine

Russia said it had successfully test-fired an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM), with tensions high over its seizure of control in the Crimea and its threat to send more forces to its neighbour Ukraine.

The Strategic Rocket Forces launched an RS-12M Topol missile from the southerly Astrakhan region near the Caspian Sea and the dummy warhead hit its target at a proving ground in Kazakhstan, the state-run news agency RIA cited Defence Ministry spokesman Igor Yegorov as saying. [Reuters]"

Aljazeera live blog

Maybe he is making moves on Kazakhstan. :rolleyes:

bumper234 wrote: »

Kim will wear his high heels down with all of the pacing and foot stamping if the attention is not back on him soon.

There are probably a few worried relatives at the moment.
Nothing makes the news like feeding relatives to packs of marauding starved dogs.

FTA69

aloyisious wrote: »

RTE interviewed a Russian gent this morning on the Ukrainian situation. His response was that Russian involvement was due to Nazis and Anti-semites taking over the Ukrainian Govt, the Ukrainians invading the Crimea. He made a boo-boo in part of that, using the word Kremlin instead of Crimea, realizing what he'd done and then apologizing "Sorry, I meant Crimea". The Ukrainian troops going to their own base was a provocation. He used the word Nazi repeatedly to describe Ukrainians in their own country, reminding the interviewer that China was in agreement with Putin, that the EU was broke financially, that the US VP was inciting unrest and backing the Nazi-Ukrainian actions, as distinct with Mr Putin, who behaved and spoke calmly about the situation. Basically: we hold the purse-strings and will do whatever we want. The attempted return to their own base yesterday by Ukrainian troops was a provocation, with them being likened to invaders and Nazis. I guess the gent was delighted to speak his mind freely over the airwaves. He totally failed to acknowledge that fact that the troops were Ukrainian, as was the new Govt in Kiev.

In regard to the Nazis, he didn't mention and was not asked about, the practice of Russians walking about Russian Cities, incl Moscow, waving the Nazi Swastika flag freely, something I thought would stick in the throat of Russians and be an unthinkable action, given how Russia was treated by Nazis in WW2.

RTE is just reporting that Ukrainian Police have moved into a Govt building in another Ukrainian City, in an area likely to follow Ethnic-Russian likes and expelled the people who took it over and few days ago. The Police also reportedly removed a Russian flag put up on the building by the occupiers.

The unfortunate reality is that there are fascists and neo-Nazis in the government and key state positions concerning security. Similarly the government immediately moved to try and downgrade Russian as an official language in the Ukraine despite half of the population speaking it as a first language. Even the Israelis have Arabic as an official language for f*ck's sake.
Likewise your point about the Russian far-right is moot considering they aren't actually in government and are largely a political fringe (albeit a dangerous one.)

I have no time for Putin and his carry on whatsoever, but this portrayal of the Ukranian government as some sort of plucky democrats under siege is nonsense. The reality is they consist of the far-right and parties and individuals previously discredited for corruption. The average Ukrainian is once again let down.

Jelle1880

FTA69 wrote: »

The unfortunate reality is that there are fascists and neo-Nazis in the government and key state positions concerning security. Similarly the government immediately moved to try and downgrade Russian as an official language in the Ukraine despite half of the population speaking it as a first language. Even the Israelis have Arabic as an official language for f*ck's sake.
Likewise your point about the Russian far-right is moot considering they aren't actually in government and are largely a political fringe (albeit a dangerous one.)

I have no time for Putin and his carry on whatsoever, but this portrayal of the Ukranian government as some sort of plucky democrats under siege is nonsense. The reality is they consist of the far-right and parties and individuals previously discredited for corruption. The average Ukrainian is once again let down.

They tried to remove Russian as a language on official documents, not get rid of it altogether. And the proposal didn't pass if I'm correct.

Also, it's not really half, more like somewhere around 35%, give or take (for some of them it's native, for others it's simply their preferred language).

The fact that a few politicians in high ranks are members of Svodoba etc. is worrying, but Svodoba had about 10% in the previous elections so it's not unsurprising.

FTA69

They tried to remove Russian as a language on official documents, not get rid of it altogether. And the proposal didn't pass if I'm correct

They tried to remove state provision for Russian speakers. I think it's fair that Russian-speakers or ethnic Russians would take that as a signal of hostility.

The fact that a few politicians in high ranks are members of Svodoba etc. is worrying, but Svodoba had about 10% in the previous elections so it's not unsurprising.

Svoboda and the Right Sector (who are avowed neo-Nazis) are occupying positions in the interim government. The fact that people like that can be co-opted into state power on the back of an unconstitutional seizure of power is more than a bit worrying and utterly discredits the wider Ukrainian regime in my eyes. It's bad enough that most of them were belonging to parties who were up to their necks in corruption without them also being allied with fascists.

Jelle1880

Unconstitutional seizure of power ?

The constitution goes straight out the window when your government actively tries to murder you because you are protesting.

I've read it before on how a mob consisting of neo-nazis and fascists overthrew a democratically elected government, but it's a false argument if you look at what that same government did against it's own people.

Also, it's an interim government as you said, there is nothing to indicate they will remain in power unless they fix the elections they promised to hold (or if they don't hold them at all, which is also a possibility I'd say).

A lot of people it seems are focussing on the people that are now running Ukraine, instead of focussing on how they got there.

edit: Get this for irony

“What you foreigners don’t get is that those people in Maidan, they are fascists,” said Alexander, a Simferopol resident drinking at a bar in the city on Monday night. “I mean, I am all for the superiority of the white race, and all that stuff, but I don’t like fascists.”

FTA69

Unconstitutional seizure of power ?

The constitution goes straight out the window when your government actively tries to murder you because you are protesting.

You could also argue that these escalations came about due to the Right Sector and other fascists immediately trying to hijack the protests in order to attack the cops. Like it or not, Yanukovych was democratically elected and his deposition was brought about by people who are as bad as him and in some cases a lot worse.

A lot of people it seems are focussing on the people that are now running Ukraine

That's an extremely relevant factor in this whole debate. It seems those who point out that neo-Nazis are an integral part of the new regime get fobbed off or subjected to whataboutery regarding the Russian far-right which has nothing at all to do with the subject at hand. Personally I can't see the fortunes of Ukrainians being advanced by neo-Nazis and corrupt politicians tied to oligarchs. Klitschko might be the only one of them with a scrap of credibility as he's rich enough in his own right to avoid stuffing his pockets like the rest of them.

edit: Get this for irony

It's a funny quote but indicative of nothing to be honest.

Reekwind

Jelle1880 wrote: »

They tried to remove Russian as a language on official documents, not get rid of it altogether. And the proposal didn't pass if I'm correct

It passed parliament but was vetoed by the interim president after Western politicians sounded the alarm. Which raises all sorts of questions as to the robustness of the parliamentary process (given that a majority of deputies had previously supported both this measure and Yanukovych) and the attitudes of the Western Ukrainians to their compatriots in the east of the country

Unconstitutional seizure of power ?

The constitution goes straight out the window when your government actively tries to murder you because you are protesting.

In which case legality similarly goes out the window when you come to Russian intervention in the Crimea. You can't apologise for the illegal overthrow of the state in Kiev while condemning the illegal overthrow of the state in the Crimea.

I've read it before on how a mob consisting of neo-nazis and fascists overthrew a democratically elected government, but it's a false argument if you look at what that same government did against it's own people.

No it's not. Leaving aside accuracy, there is no contradiction between a democratic government and the forceful suppression of (what was deemed) an illegal attempt to overthrow the government. Similarly, just because someone is on a barricade opposing a corrupt and repressive government, it does not automatically make them democrats or particularly nice people.

If nothing else the Ukraine has demonstrated the difference between real social upheaval and the idealised perception of 'students with Facebook' that often prevails in the popular imagination

Aidric

aloyisious wrote: »

RTE interviewed a Russian gent this morning on the Ukrainian situation. His response was that Russian involvement was due to Nazis and Anti-semites taking over the Ukrainian Govt, the Ukrainians invading the Crimea. He made a boo-boo in part of that, using the word Kremlin instead of Crimea, realizing what he'd done and then apologizing "Sorry, I meant Crimea". The Ukrainian troops going to their own base was a provocation. He used the word Nazi repeatedly to describe Ukrainians in their own country, reminding the interviewer that China was in agreement with Putin, that the EU was broke financially, that the US VP was inciting unrest and backing the Nazi-Ukrainian actions, as distinct with Mr Putin, who behaved and spoke calmly about the situation. Basically: we hold the purse-strings and will do whatever we want. The attempted return to their own base yesterday by Ukrainian troops was a provocation, with them being likened to invaders and Nazis. I guess the gent was delighted to speak his mind freely over the airwaves. He totally failed to acknowledge that fact that the troops were Ukrainian, as was the new Govt in Kiev.

In regard to the Nazis, he didn't mention and was not asked about, the practice of Russians walking about Russian Cities, incl Moscow, waving the Nazi Swastika flag freely, something I thought would stick in the throat of Russians and be an unthinkable action, given how Russia was treated by Nazis in WW2.

RTE is just reporting that Ukrainian Police have moved into a Govt building in another Ukrainian City, in an area likely to follow Ethnic-Russian likes and expelled the people who took it over and few days ago. The Police also reportedly removed a Russian flag put up on the building by the occupiers.

That was Alexander Nekrassov and yes he pursued a hard pro Russian line.

However, his point that there is a hard right nationalist presence in the Ukrainian government was a point that needs to be made. I think he stated there were 4 such members of parliament.

bobcoffee

it is a major problem with Ukraine, it is not exactly a "pro-eu" government in power and while not all are neo-nazi's and so on.
that does not mean that the government in place atm are not corrupt politicians.
private zoo really just speaks for it self, never mind the endless amount of "bling" being shown off by protesters.
that amount of corruption just does not disappear over night.
at same time that corruption was sponsored by Russia too.

there is no quick fix and plenty of new moments to create "laws/loopholes" to make some of the corruption "legal".
it would need a massive investigation.
the only thing not corrupt in that country was the protestors, they didn't even pack up once the new government came into power.