Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

WakeUp

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Top Chinese diplomat?! Lol.

:rolleyes: you were saying?...

meanwhile.....

Eliot Higgins is a far more reliable and authoritative source than Zero Cred, Info Wars, Global "Research",

the conversation you are having here to yourself is most impressive. Because Im constantLy linking to infowars and global research right.

and the rest of the moonbat sites you link to

His intel is of an extremely high quality and frequently cited by many international news networks.

but but but but...hes been on the news. wow. his intel. Ill tell you what is even more impressive. his academic backround and mentors.

Higgins has no background or training in weapons and is entirely self-taught, saying that "Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo.

Eliot Higgins

phuckin lol get tooda the choppa with hoppa :pac::pac::pac:

Ren2k7 wrote: »

I realise you're here to bat for your heroes Russia, but linking to these bonkers websites doesn't do anything to lend credcence to your arguments.

yeah I reckon you "realise" lots of things that doesnt surpise me at all.

Elmer Blooker

WakeUp wrote: »

the French and Germans are trying to get people around the table whilst the anglo-american axis want too and are sending soldiers in. the Americans are phucking insane.

Interesting that you mention "getting people around the table".
I've no idea why the British want to get involved on the ground in Ukraine, you would think they would know better that military solutions aren't the answer and a political solution has to found eventually. This RT article will of course be dismissed as "propaganda" and perhaps it is anti Cameron but I find it quite accurate. Once upon a time you would have seen something like this in the Guardian before it started to impersonate the Telegraph/Daily Mail/Express.

After decades of refusal to talk to ‘terrorists,’ Britain was forced to, eventually, not only negotiate with but fully recognize rebel leaders as legitimate; now they are part of Ulster's government.

http://rt.com/op-edge/235395-uk-irish-separatists-ulster-ukraine/

WakeUp

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Interesting that you mention "getting people around the table".
I've no idea why the British want to get involved on the ground in Ukraine, you would think they would know better that military solutions aren't the answer and a political solution has to found eventually. This RT article will of course be dismissed as "propaganda" and perhaps it is anti Cameron but I find it quite accurate. Once upon a time you would have seen something like this in the Guardian before it started to impersonate the Telegraph/Daily Mail/Express.

http://rt.com/op-edge/235395-uk-irish-separatists-ulster-ukraine/

I read that article alright Elmer. The Americans are driving this the British are tagging alone. thank god for the French and Germans.

Dempsey: Obama Should Consider Arming Ukraine

The nation’s top military general said on Tuesday that President Barack Obama should consider sending weapons to Ukraine’s beleaguered military to aid its fight against Russian-backed separatists, becoming the latest of several U.S. officials to make such a recommendation.

The Washington Post reported that Army Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the Senate Armed Services Committee that, “we should absolutely consider providing lethal aid.”

“And it ought to be in the context of our NATO allies because [Russian President Vladimir] Putin’s ultimate objective is to fracture NATO,” Dempsey added.

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/dempsey-obama-should-consider-arming-ukraine/?

think the French and Germans will have a thing or two to say about that. remember the Americans in the words of potus are "exceptional". and according to their former ambassador to Germany the power vis a vis Europe lies in Washington.

this gave me a chuckle. this clown has been hiding out in Kiev. dumb phucks of a feather flock together it would appear. the Ukrainians would do well not to listen to this fella and instead ask him how things worked out for him Georgia. but alas they arent smart enough they even gave him a job. and some want this guys country in the EU and Nato. just baffling. he has some cheek with his comments about Germany and Europe ). reminded me of when the Ukrainians threatened to turn off the gas supply to Europe a while back. I mean who do they think they are. quickly get them into the EU and Nato. what could possible go wrong.

Saakashvili Urges U.S. To Send Ukraine Weapons

Former Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, now serving as an adviser to the administration of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, has called on the United States to provide Ukraine with lethal weapons.

Speaking in front of a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on March 4, Saakashvili said that Ukraine needed arms, such as antitank weapons, to stall what he called the Russian advance.

He said that without weapons, there will be no country to reform.

The former president rebutted the argument that the United States should work with Europeans, saying that Germany was unlikely to agree to arming Ukraine.

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-saakashvili-urges-us-arms/26882477.html?
Saakashvilli

Icepick

Of course Ukraine should be armed.

AbusesToilets

France and Germany would of course look to avoid any notion of taking a hard line stance in the face of Russian aggression, what with it's implied obligation to maintain military forces capable of securing the defence of Europe. After 7 decades of prosperity, it's much easier to look to the US to continue providing their security, all the while publicly criticising them for their efforts.

Quite a different sentiment from that held by all those countries formerly under the thumb of the Soviets.

Gatling

Here's see all these pro russians on here keep blaming the us on this and the us on that.
What the US Is guilty of is lack of inaction in Ukraine .
Ukrainians want to be European and free democratics .
Not under the boot heel of the kremlin for what ever reason the pro russians on here actually want .
There not Ukrainian and aren't russians despite acting like some type of cheer squad yeah go ruskies.
Russia now has a problem they started a war and they have no idea how to get out ,
russian forces all 19-20k troops depending on what sources you believe in east ukraine with another 50k sitting close to the Ukrainian border
they hold 2 cities and not a lot else .
the Ukrainians withdrew from towns and villages ok looks like a major loss to the Ukrainian military ,but is it really a loss or did they force russia to send more and more forces into ukraine and yet only make small advances in the big scheme of things.
now as we all know putin invited Merkel and Hollande to essentially private peace talks and It was decided everyone had to withdraw to the original minsk agreement lines .
but no 4 days into the cease-fire the Russians took Debaltseve as we now .
now the Ukrainian military wasn't massacred or wiped out even but held there own for several months against against the best of Russian forces backed by heavy artillery and equipment .
but for the most part the Ukrainian military is still intact ,and currently going through a massive reorganisation and modernisation effort .
now part of the minsk agreement was ukraine was to fix power supplies and pay salaries and pensions to the eastern towns and cities again
Which won't happen while russia and the so called rebels are in control so who's going to have to foot the bill russia will ,but the Russian economy is in near meltdown so they won't be in any state to maintain permanent military and financially support the two cities and towns they obviously don't want if there demanding ukraine foots the bills ,for there illegal invasion and current occupation of East ukraine ,
Within the next week it looks like ukraine will officially ask for international peace keepers to be deployed to oversee the current situation in east ukraine .
Something russia will no doubt have a major issue with despite there own demands for a peaceful diplomatic solution .

Now a population just under 50 million people near 80% of the population are ethnic Ukrainian not russian .
17% consider themselfs as ethnic Russian and 9% other minorities .
now can any of the pro russia /putin explain why that 17% should decide that the whole of Ukraine should be under the control of the kremlin .

Shurimgreat

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Interesting that you mention "getting people around the table".
I've no idea why the British want to get involved on the ground in Ukraine, you would think they would know better that military solutions aren't the answer and a political solution has to found eventually. This RT article will of course be dismissed as "propaganda" and perhaps it is anti Cameron but I find it quite accurate. Once upon a time you would have seen something like this in the Guardian before it started to impersonate the Telegraph/Daily Mail/Express.

http://rt.com/op-edge/235395-uk-irish-separatists-ulster-ukraine/

RT is a Kremlin mouthpiece, its not reliable. People who spread false propaganda like you are responsible for many of the conflicts worldwide, whipping up emotions and anger with lies, then sitting back to watch and sometimes enjoy the consequences.

WakeUp

Gatling wrote: »

Here's see all these pro russians on here keep blaming the us on this and the us on that.
What the US Is guilty of is lack of inaction in Ukraine .
Ukrainians want to be European and free democratics .
Not under the boot heel of the kremlin for what ever reason the pro russians on here actually want .
There not Ukrainian and aren't russians despite acting like some type of cheer squad yeah go ruskies.
Russia now has a problem they started a war and they have no idea how to get out ,
russian forces all 19-20k troops depending on what sources you believe in east ukraine with another 50k sitting close to the Ukrainian border
they hold 2 cities and not a lot else .
the Ukrainians withdrew from towns and villages ok looks like a major loss to the Ukrainian military ,but is it really a loss or did they force russia to send more and more forces into ukraine and yet only make small advances in the big scheme of things.
now as we all know putin invited Merkel and Hollande to essentially private peace talks and It was decided everyone had to withdraw to the original minsk agreement lines .
but no 4 days into the cease-fire the Russians took Debaltseve as we now .
now the Ukrainian military wasn't massacred or wiped out even but held there own for several months against against the best of Russian forces backed by heavy artillery and equipment .
but for the most part the Ukrainian military is still intact ,and currently going through a massive reorganisation and modernisation effort .
now part of the minsk agreement was ukraine was to fix power supplies and pay salaries and pensions to the eastern towns and cities again
Which won't happen while russia and the so called rebels are in control so who's going to have to foot the bill russia will ,but the Russian economy is in near meltdown so they won't be in any state to maintain permanent military and financially support the two cities and towns they obviously don't want if there demanding ukraine foots the bills ,for there illegal invasion and current occupation of East ukraine ,
Within the next week it looks like ukraine will officially ask for international peace keepers to be deployed to oversee the current situation in east ukraine .
Something russia will no doubt have a major issue with despite there own demands for a peaceful diplomatic solution .

Now a population just under 50 million people near 80% of the population are ethnic Ukrainian not russian .
17% consider themselfs as ethnic Russian and 9% other minorities .
now can any of the pro russia /putin explain why that 17% should decide that the whole of Ukraine should be under the control of the kremlin .

Ukraine isn't a member of the EU or Nato what are the Americans getting involved for. freedom. gimme a break .have we heard that before. this is a European problem the Americans should stay out of it. Your point about peace keepers is a good one actually, the Ukrainians should put the ball in the Russian court. as you say the Russians say they want peace so call their bluff then .and then if they refuse to let peacekeepers go in , go look we told you or something . where will these peace keepers come from I wonder. I also wonder what affect US troops training Ukrainians will have on the Minsk agreement.

WakeUp

Shurimgreat wrote: »

RT is a Kremlin mouthpiece, its not reliable. People who spread false propaganda like you are responsible for many of the conflicts worldwide, whipping up emotions and anger with lies, then sitting back to watch and sometimes enjoy the consequences.

Yeah Elmer is responsible for many of the conflicts world wide. stop talking nonsense please. whipping up emotion and anger lol jaysus. how about taking issue with what was said in the article as opposed to playing the man. which happens a lot from one side of the argument. yet in the main gos unchecked. for whatever reason. sometimes I wonder.

gandalf

Sweet Jaysus please don't tell me that someone is using Bryan McDonald as a source to back up their opinions.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/carlow-residents-furious-after-russian-tv-report-29920772.html

http://www.interpretermag.com/life-of-bryan-how-an-rt-columnist-tries-to-influence-the-debate-on-russia-and-ukraine/

Morpheus

WakeUp wrote: »

Ukraine isn't a member of the EU or Nato what are the Americans getting involved for. freedom. gimme a break .have we heard that before. this is a European problem the Americans should stay out of it.

They said this before... that was WW2.
This is a world problem, Russia is trying to place a divide between EU and USA as he wants russian influence over the EU sphere. Not going to happen.

Your point about peace keepers is a good one actually, the Ukrainians should put the ball in the Russian court. as you say the Russians say they want peace so call their bluff then .and then if they refuse to let peacekeepers go in , go look we told you or something . where will these peace keepers come from I wonder. I also wonder what affect US troops training Ukrainians will have on the Minsk agreement.

Ball in russian Court = Ukraine pulls back from border area and removes heavy weapons surveillance flights and intel, allows russia to prove its going to support a peace process ... meanwhile, unchecked Russian hardware and troops continue to cross into Ukrainian owned russian occupied areas and the russian backed forces rebuild in secret and then wham... another part of ukraine becomes a part of this crazy soviet state that putin is building.

No. Enough. Big stick for putin, free the russian people from his mental method of governing and leadership.

johnnyskeleton

Shurimgreat wrote: »

RT is a Kremlin mouthpiece, its not reliable. People who spread false propaganda like you are responsible for many of the conflicts worldwide, whipping up emotions and anger with lies, then sitting back to watch and sometimes enjoy the consequences.

If you have a source for this assertion, can you please provide it?

BoJack Horseman

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If you have a source for this assertion, can you please provide it?

I do, but its from RT.....

weisses

Morpheus wrote: »

No. Enough. Big stick for putin, free the russian people from his mental method of governing and leadership.

Problem is that what will replace Putin could be much much worse then the current leadership .....

gandalf

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If you have a source for this assertion, can you please provide it?

TBH it is fairly obvious. It is a little more subtle than Pravda for example (have a look at their english website for some of the real bat**** crazy stories the Russians are being fed).

Here's a couple of good articles about RT and their bias.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has created an anti-CNN for Western audiences with the international satellite news network Russia Today. With its recipe of smart propaganda, sex appeal and unlimited cash, it is outperforming its peers worldwide.

..........

Since 2005, the Russian government has increased the channel's annual budget more than tenfold, from $30 million (€22.6 million) to over $300 million. Russia Today's budget covers the salaries of 2,500 employees and contractors worldwide, 100 in Washington alone. And the channel has no budget cuts to fear now that Putin has issued a decree forbidding his finance minister from taking any such steps.

The Moscow leadership views the funds going to the channel as money "well invested," says Natalya Timakova, the press attaché to Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev. "In addition, Russia Today is -- and I hope the Germans will forgive me for this remark -- significantly more modern than Deutsche Welle, for example, and it also has more money."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/putin-fights-war-of-images-and-propaganda-with-russia-today-channel-a-916162.html

That’s par for RT’s course today. It began somewhat differently in 2004 as an international news network aiming to be similar to the BBC or CNN, with the insertion of local stories showing Russia in a good light. That was acceptably defensive (and inoffensive) PR, but it buttered no parsnips. Besides, the Putin regime was embarking on a more aggressive foreign policy, and as part of Putin’s information apparatus, RT was inevitably dragged along in its wake. The turning point is generally agreed to have occurred in 2008, when Russia provoked the Georgian government into an attempt to recover its lost province of Ossetia and promptly responded with an invasion and occupation of parts of Georgia. RT gave Putin cover with a jingoistic campaign that denounced the Georgians as genocidal. That campaign in turn now looks like a dry run for RT’s reporting and commentary on the Ukrainian crisis, which depicted the Kiev government as bloodthirsty neo-fascists intent on ethnic cleansing etc. — while depicting actual bloodthirsty neo-fascists (and Russian soldiers) in eastern Ukraine as peace-minded democrats.

.....

A number of those American and British twentysomething recruits have discovered that unpleasant reality in the course of their reporting. Abby Martin, the host of RT America, protested on air at the support that RT gave to Russia’s invasion of Crimea. Reporter Liz Wahl resigned shortly afterwards for the same reason. Staci Bivens, another RT reporter, said that she had been ordered by editors to write a story arguing the absurd case that Germany was a ‘failed state’. (She refused, which led to her leaving the network.) Overall, past and present employees of RT described a workplace in which reporters and commentators might write original stories only to find them rewritten by senior Russian editors — not to clarify or correct them, but to suit obvious Kremlin interests.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9390782/the-truth-about-russia-today-is-that-it-is-putins-mouthpiece/

Elmer Blooker

I have been following the Ukraine conflict for a year now on western media and RT and I have absolutely no doubts who are the most guilty of spreading misinformation and downright lies. The state controlled BBC is by far the biggest offender, RTE is just as bad giving airtime to Kiev propagandist Edward Lucas. Has anyone heard someone like Robert Fisk getting asked for an alternative opinion?
Of course not, its called censorship.

Overall, past and present employees of RT described a workplace in which reporters and commentators might write original stories only to find them rewritten by senior Russian editors — not to clarify or correct them, but to suit obvious Kremlin interests.

Bias? No offence gandalf but you are quite naive if you don't mind me saying.

Scofflaw

Elmer Blooker wrote:

Bias? No offence gandalf but you are quite naive if you don't mind me saying.

Calling people who disagree with you "naive" is possibly the lowest form of political argument.

moderately,
Scofflaw

BoJack Horseman

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I have been following the Ukraine conflict for a year now on western media and RT and I have absolutely no doubts who are the most guilty of spreading misinformation and downright lies. The state controlled BBC is by far the biggest offender,

Anyone who has even the briefest experience with BBC content knows its not government controlled.

The Cameron government & Tory backbenchers barely hide their dislike for the BBC & its reciprocated, if just privately by senior BBC management.

The BBC is an independent trust funded by lisence fee. Editorially it has its agenda, but its not controlled by the state..... pretty far from it.

Its not really equivalent with the Kremlin controlled media.

BoJack Horseman

7 Russian jets made a pass at a Ticonderoga class Cruiser this week....

Naughty naughty!

Russian Su-30s and Su-24s aircraft from Russia’s Black Sea Fleet based in Crimea have been conducting attack runs on NATO warships operating in the Black Sea, Sputnik News reported.

According to the Russian media outlet, the jets, launched from Novofedorvka, an airbase captured on Mar. 22, 2014, in western Crimea peninsula 70 kilometres north of Sevastopol, have been monitoring the movements of two ships, the American USS Vicksburg (a Ticonderoga class guided missile cruiser), and Turkey’s frigate The Turgut Reis.

On Mar. 3, a formation made of three Su-30s and four Su-24s overflew the NATO ships “to practice penetrating anti-air systems,” as affirmed by a source at the Sevastopol naval base who spoke to the Russian state agency.

http://theaviationist.com/2015/03/04/su-30-and-su-24-over-nato-ships/

Interesting contest.

The Ticonderoga class cruisers are the most powerful warship ever created by man.
Could a 7 plane attack sink her?

Could do, but my money would be on the cruiser.

WakeUp

don't think there's anything interesting about that contest. it's madness. if the Russians decided to attack those ships they are sitting ducks. my money would be on Russian sunburn oniks missiles carrier killers and the numerous hunter killer subs that are tracking that flotilla below the waves. one mistake from either side is all it takes and sh1ts gonna get very real very fast.

BoJack Horseman

WakeUp wrote: »

if the Russians decided to attack those ships they are sitting ducks.

Good chance of it, but the Ticonderoga's come packing.

my money would be on Russian sunburn oniks missiles carrier killers

Depends on the target.

Currently Russian ICMB anti-ship missiles can only hit stationary targets.
(They can't reacquire targets after re-entry).

So far, 5 Ticonderoga's & 25 Arleigh Burke's have BMD capabilities, the rest don't yet.

one mistake from either side is all it takes and sh1ts gonna get very real very fast.

Makes you wonder at the mindset at the Russian commander ordering these stunts.

WakeUp

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Good chance of it, but the Ticonderoga's come packing.

Depends on the target.

Currently Russian ICMB anti-ship missiles can only hit stationary targets.
(They can't reacquire targets after re-entry).

So far, 5 Ticonderoga's & 25 Arleigh Burke's have BMD capabilities, the rest don't yet.

Makes you wonder at the mindset at the Russian commander ordering these stunts.

I'm on my phone so I can't multi quote. I'm also no missile expert but the sunburn isn't an ICBM. it can be launched direct surface to sea or by jets from a distance . we already know what damage a sub sonic similar type of missile vastly inferior to the sunburn can do when launched from a jet . Argentina sank a British ship with a French made Exocet . sunburns skim along the surface of the waves and in their terminal stage start performing all sorts of tricks. the Americans call them carrier killers. the missile travels at Mach 2. if detected at a distance of 12 miles out any ship in their sights has 24 seconds to take them out or it's lights out. fired in saturation nigh on impossible to defend against. could say the same thing about NATO sending a flotilla in that's clearly directed toward Russia that isn't a smart stunt either. both sides are engaging in dangerous crazy behaviour with this stuff.

Lemming

WakeUp wrote: »

could say the same thing about NATO sending a flotilla in that's clearly directed toward Russia that isn't a smart stunt either. both sides are engaging in dangerous crazy behaviour with this stuff.

There is a world - and I really do mean a world - of difference between a flotilla, or a squadron doing overflight vs. engaging in "practice" attack runs. Two of the above acts, whilst possibly controversial given context, are not necessarily provocative or hostile acts in themselves. One of the above acts can not be squared away as anything other than a hostile act.

There is a reason why all nations notify the others about any rocket launches, be they civilian/space or military tests. Because any orbital rocket launch looks indistinguishable from an ICBM launch ... so tell me how you would spot the difference between a "practice" attack run and a real attack run made by elements of one nuclear power against another WakeUp if you wouldn't mind.

WakeUp

Lemming wrote: »

There is a world - and I really do mean a world - of difference between a flotilla, or a squadron doing overflight vs. engaging in "practice" attack runs. Two of the above acts, whilst possibly controversial given context, are not necessarily provocative or hostile acts in themselves. One of the above acts can not be squared away as anything other than a hostile act.

There is a reason why all nations notify the others about any rocket launches, be they civilian/space or military tests. Because any orbital rocket launch looks indistinguishable from an ICBM launch ... so tell me how you would spot the difference between a "practice" attack run and a real attack run made by elements of one nuclear power against another WakeUp if you wouldn't mind.

exactly context is everything. why is that NATO flotilla in the Black Sea?..

Lemming

WakeUp wrote: »

exactly context is everything. why is that NATO flotilla in the Black Sea?..

Why are Russian bombers violating sovereign airspace? Why are Russian bombers entering controlled airspace without notification & transponders turned off? Why are Russian naval vessels violating soverieng waters? Russian troops violating soveriegn borders?

All of the above is controversial, but no means the end of the world until context says otherwise. Doing a "practice" attack run could very well easily result in the end of the world.

Do the math instead of reading Pravda et .al

Incidentally, the black sea is not Russian territorial waters, although to date the international community has observed and abided by long-standing treaties to restrict the maximum permissable tonnage of vessel in the black sea at any given time at the behest of the Russians.

oscarBravo

WakeUp wrote: »

why is that NATO flotilla in the Black Sea?..

Because the entire southern and western shores of the Black Sea belong to NATO member states...?

BoJack Horseman

WakeUp wrote: »

exactly context is everything. why is that NATO flotilla in the Black Sea?..

Because its NATO members waters?

WakeUp

Lemming wrote: »

Why are Russian bombers violating sovereign airspace? Why are Russian bombers entering controlled airspace without notification & transponders turned off? Why are Russian naval vessels violating soverieng waters? Russian troops violating soveriegn borders?

All of the above is controversial, but no means the end of the world until context says otherwise. Doing a "practice" attack run could very well easily result in the end of the world.

Do the math instead of reading Pravda et .al

Incidentally, the black sea is not Russian territorial waters, although to date the international community has observed and abided by long-standing treaties to restrict the maximum permissable tonnage of vessel in the black sea at any given time at the behest of the Russians.

Who's reading Pravda? are you. it's hilarious you're telling to do the math yet see no issue with a NATO flotilla in the Black Sea considering the situation at present. I would imagine the Russians are carrying out those patrols and such you speak of for the same reason NATO sailed a flotilla into the Black Sea. to answer your other question I don't see how those ships could tell the difference between a practice run or an actual assault. it's dangerous and wreckless behaviour I'm not disputing that nor have I. now as per my question to you..why is that NATO flotilla in the Black Sea?..

WakeUp

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Because its NATO members waters?

It has nothing to do with the situation in Crimea and or Russia?..because it's NATO members waters no other reason is that what you're saying?...

BoJack Horseman

WakeUp wrote: »

I'm on my phone so I can't multi quote. I'm also no missile expert but the sunburn isn't an ICBM.

I stand corrected.
I thought their big anti-ship missiles left the atmosphere before dropping to sea-skim mode in terminal phase.

(Maybe there are others like this).