Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

WakeUp

oscarBravo wrote: »

Because the entire southern and western shores of the Black Sea belong to NATO member states...?

Nothing to do with the situation in Ukraine or what the Russians are up to then?..

BoJack Horseman

WakeUp wrote: »

It has nothing to do with the situation in Crimea and or Russia?..because it's NATO members waters no other reason is that what you're saying?...

No, Turkish, Bulgarian & Romanian vessels are always there.
They all take exercises & visits with allies & there are always rotations of vessels.

This was the case pre-invasion.

The vessels the Russians buzzed are not surveillance, they aren't 'spying on Ivan'

WakeUp

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I stand corrected.
I thought their big anti-ship missiles left the atmosphere before dropping to sea-skim mode in terminal phase.

(Maybe there are others like this).

thats no bother bojack fair play for saying. I dont know if there are missiles like that either like you say maybe there is.

Elmer Blooker

oscarBravo wrote: »

Because the entire southern and western shores of the Black Sea belong to NATO member states...?

Of course, the southern shore would be Turkey, supporter of ISIS.
Now let me see .... we have NATO fighting ISIS but one member supports them. We have NATO arming and supporting the Kurds but one member is fighting them. A morally bankrupt organisation!

BoJack Horseman

WakeUp wrote: »

dont know if there are missiles like that either like you say maybe there is.

Yeah, I found it...... but they are chinese.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-21D#DF-21D

WakeUp

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

No, Turkish, Bulgarian & Romanian vessels are always there.
They all take exercises & visits with allies & there are always rotations of vessels.

This was the case pre-invasion.

The vessels the Russians buzzed are not surveillance, they aren't 'spying on Ivan'

Naval rapid reaction force consists of flagship, a guided missile cruiser, and five other ships

A NATO flotilla is conducting training n the Black Sea with exercises which include anti-air and anti-submarine warfare exercises, as well as boat attacks and basic ship handling maneuvers.

NATO has announced that the flotilla will train with ships from the Bulgarian, Romanian and Turkish navies.

The multinational naval rapid reaction force is led by an American admiral and consists of flagship, a guided missile cruiser, and five other ships.

The group will go to the Mediterranean later in March to resume patrols contributing to maritime security in the region.

The US and NATO have stepped up their patrols in the Black Sea over the past year following Russia's military intervention in Ukraine.

The Supreme Allied Commander for Europe US General Philip M. Breedlove recently said that 'active discussions' were underway with Ukraine to set up joint naval exercises next year.

http://uatoday.tv/politics/nato-enters-black-sea-for-warfare-training-exercises-413507.html

the Russians rightly or wrongly will view this as a provocation considering the situation. the Black sea is like a big lake its really small having these ships in there along with the Russian presence ( naval base ) and what they are getting up too with their own antics in the air it isnt good.

Gatling

The Nato members should move anti air defence systems along there respective shorelines to back up the various naval forces in the area

AbusesToilets

Let the Russians engage in mock attack runs, like it was quoted in one of the pieces above, great training for sailors in anti-air ops. I doubt either side is in any way particularly worried about an actual attack happening, as they know the consequences. Return to Cold War shenanigans.

gandalf

Nemtsovs final interview makes very interesting reading.

Q. Why?

A. Because Russia quickly turns into a fascist state. We already have the propaganda modelled after Nazi Germany. We also have a nucleus of assault brigades, such as the SA. What else would you call this Anti-Maidan thing, this pseudo-civic initiative, which two weeks ago gathered to torpedo the anniversary of the revolution on the Maidan.

Tens of thousands of mercenaries, thugs and all kinds of suspicious individuals were brought to Moscow. They tried to intimidate us. With portraits of Putin they swore that they would fight and even kill any rebels. As in Hitler’s Germany. And that’s just the beginning.

Q. But it was the Russian authorities that warned against fascism in Ukraine.

A. Someone once said that the future fascists will be ardent anti-fascists. Fascism in Ukraine? Nonsense! Let’s look at Russia. We have one party built on the cult of a leader, plus some irrelevant satellite parties. Every few years there is a pathetic parody of an election.

We have a chauvinistic and aggressive foreign policy, a reheating of imperial complexes, the militarisation of society. These are the characteristics of a fascist regime, aren’t they? But Putin is not a fascist. He just cynically uses some elements of the past, mixes them with others – for example with Soviet traditions – and the hybrid is born, the contemporary hybrid fascism. It’s like the war in Ukraine. The war is going on, Russian soldiers are there, but the Kremlin denies it and pretends [the government] has nothing to do with these tanks and regiments in Donetsk.

The same is true of fascism – it exists in Russia, but the authorities say that we are fighting the fascism in Ukraine. If we do not stop this madness, the consequences for all of us will be devastating.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/boris-nemtsovs-final-message-putin-has-programmed-russians-to-hate-strangers-10092101.html

Elmer Blooker

Mr Nemtsov comes across to me as quite an arrogant and egotistical individual. I am not saying he got what he deserved but who knows who wanted him out of the way.
He completely dismisses the 49% of the electorate who voted for Putin's United Russia Party, the 19% who voted for the Communist Party and the 13% who voted for the third biggest party A Just Russia as irrelevant, insignificant and unimportant.
If the Communists were in power Russian tanks would have been rolling through Kiev a long time ago and the other big party A Just Russia are leftist and are affiliated to Socialist International so its very unlikely that they would want to see Russia turned into a puppet state and looted like Ukraine.

oldozer

Putin if memory serves as to my reading of him was somewhat of a weakling. He would come home from school to his granny and bemoan of how he was treated at school.
Granny of course had no time for going to the school to complain. Her idea to young Putin was to tell him to learn Martial Arts, learn how to defend himself, and face down those who he was most afraid of.

I also read of him being Baptized in secret as his mother had had a strong faith. His father quietly turned a blind eye to a lot of how he was schooled in Christianity at a young age. As to his KGB connections. I think I read of him student in a in Liverpool, not all that unusual as Hitler was about that neighbourhood some time before Putin.

He is quite the unknown quantity in this civil war. I hope someone already said this of this thread. Ukraine is not only in a civil war as a country. It is also a country fighting a separate civil war in the Western part of a Ukrainian civil war. So very sad really to see Tanks of both sides waving flags of The Christ in this quagmire. So very wrong also to see Caucasians waving flags of the one god of both of this ethnic divide. We have seen that though here in those Islands close to us. One God, different interpretations as to how He would give support to a local side in this game.

Not quite a GAA, thing, an FA championship where we support the local lads. A game though to be sure. US being backed by the military industry, which is really a banking cartel. Just a game really on the European Theater. Maybe they know it the producers of this farce. Just going to be a European thing which the US thinks they may just be another audience once again. The people of the US are in for a surprise though I feel, but then we all are as a species if this keeps going as it is.

Putin had two problems when the Eastern people of Russian ethnicity in Ukraine were getting the dirty end of the stick. He removed those two for the tide to turn. He now has a problem with at least two of his Generals who would have been in Germany, and France with the Russian army long since this farce started. A fine line for a chess player as he has also to try to keep tabs on China if Putin cares for his people. So far in my book he is playing a cagey game.

Given a free press, honest opinion, a vote to the populace of most of the world. My thought on Putin. He would win hands down as a world leader in any vote. Love him or hate him. He is one strong leader as most of the politicians about the world are just bereft of ideas, of just well paid goons.

Dozer.

WakeUp

Gatling wrote: »

The Nato members should move anti air defence systems along there respective shorelines to back up the various naval forces in the area

is military escalation the answer though. if things keep escalating as they are then eventually something is going to give.

Breedlove's Bellicosity: Berlin Alarmed by Aggressive NATO Stance on Ukraine

US President Obama supports Chancellor Merkel's efforts at finding a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine crisis. But hawks in Washington seem determined to torpedo Berlin's approach. And NATO's top commander in Europe hasn't been helping either.

It was quiet in eastern Ukraine last Wednesday. Indeed, it was another quiet day in an extended stretch of relative calm. The battles between the Ukrainian army and the pro-Russian separatists had largely stopped and heavy weaponry was being withdrawn. The Minsk cease-fire wasn't holding perfectly, but it was holding.

On that same day, General Philip Breedlove, the top NATO commander in Europe, stepped before the press in Washington. Putin, the 59-year-old said, had once again "upped the ante" in eastern Ukraine -- with "well over a thousand combat vehicles, Russian combat forces, some of their most sophisticated air defense, battalions of artillery" having been sent to the Donbass. "What is clear," Breedlove said, "is that right now, it is not getting better. It is getting worse every day."

German leaders in Berlin were stunned. They didn't understand what Breedlove was talking about. And it wasn't the first time. Once again, the German government, supported by intelligence gathered by the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), Germany's foreign intelligence agency, did not share the view of NATO's Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR).

The pattern has become a familiar one. For months, Breedlove has been commenting on Russian activities in eastern Ukraine, speaking of troop advances on the border, the amassing of munitions and alleged columns of Russian tanks. Over and over again, Breedlove's numbers have been significantly higher than those in the possession of America's NATO allies in Europe. As such, he is playing directly into the hands of the hardliners in the US Congress and in NATO.

The German government is alarmed. Are the Americans trying to thwart European efforts at mediation led by Chancellor Angela Merkel? Sources in the Chancellery have referred to Breedlove's comments as "dangerous propaganda." Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier even found it necessary recently to bring up Breedlove's comments with NATO General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg.

But Breedlove hasn't been the only source of friction. Europeans have also begun to see others as hindrances in their search for a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine conflict. First and foremost among them is Victoria Nuland, head of European affairs at the US State Department. She and others would like to see Washington deliver arms to Ukraine and are supported by Congressional Republicans as well as many powerful Democrats.

But it is the tone of Breedlove's announcements that makes Berlin uneasy. False claims and exaggerated accounts, warned a top German official during a recent meeting on Ukraine, have put NATO -- and by extension, the entire West -- in danger of losing its credibility.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/germany-concerned-about-aggressive-nato-stance-on-ukraine-a-1022193.html

the Americans need to back up. this is our backyard not theirs.

WakeUp

Morpheus wrote: »

They said this before... that was WW2.
This is a world problem, Russia is trying to place a divide between EU and USA as he wants russian influence over the EU sphere. Not going to happen.

In my own opinion you have this back to front. its the Americans that are trying to place a wedge between Europe and Russia. whatever trust existed between Russia and America is now gone probably forever. that isnt a situation we want to find ourselves in with a neighbor and we are borderline at the moment. the empire is playing its own game here I mean that much is obvious. Victoria "phuck the EU" noodleman says it all really. listen to what the Germans and French are saying. it would appear that finally albeit belatedly the penny is beginning to drop for them. they need to keep our sh1t together and the Americans need to back up.

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

In my own opinion you have this back to front. its the Americans that are trying to place a wedge between Europe and Russia. whatever trust existed between Russia and America is now gone probably forever. that isnt a situation we want to find ourselves in with a neighbor and we are borderline at the moment. the empire is playing its own game here I mean that much is obvious. Victoria "phuck the EU" noodleman says it all really. listen to what the Germans and French are saying. it would appear that finally albeit belatedly the penny is beginning to drop for them. they need to keep our sh1t together and the Americans need to back up.

Dude you need to let that go .

The Germans and french have been next to useless during all or this .
don't give them any credit for the current peace plan because they had nothing to bring .putin and the kremlin see a clear weakness in the EU and pounced on it .
The EU are busy playing monopoly banking edition and are in no way prepared for conflicts anywhere in Europe .
Ask why poland,lativa ,Lithuania,romania to name a few asked the US to Station troops in their respective sovereign state's and not german or French .
The Baltic and eastern European states have no confidence in the EU to defend them from possible russian aggressors .
Hence why Ukraine went the the US and UK to ask for assistance in reorganising there military forces and command structures .

AbusesToilets

WakeUp wrote: »

is military escalation the answer though. if things keep escalating as they are then eventually something is going to give.

Funny, I would have thought invading another country would fall under the heading of military escalation. Such an unreasonable action by these countries to increase their defensive capabilities along the borders that they share with Russia.

the Americans need to back up. this is our backyard not theirs.

This is exactly the mindset that perpetrates this mess. It's no one's backyard, it is a sovereign country; a fact that Russia feels shouldn't get in the way of its regional goals. You're awful quick to throw criticism at the US for claimed interference and to laud the Germans and the French for their efforts at negotiation. I'm sure the countries in that region have good recollection of the negotiation that took place on their behalf after WW2 between the Allies. Ask Poland how that worked out for them.

Perhaps the Ukrainian government is a better student of history that you are, and feels that receiving actual assistance in the form of materiel and arms to fight an invader is more useful than the diplomatic solutions being proposed by parties that have little ability to pose any military threat to Russia and thus bring little leverage to the negotiating table.

WakeUp

Gatling wrote: »

Dude you need to let that go .

The Germans and french have been next to useless during all or this .
don't give them any credit for the current peace plan because they had nothing to bring .putin and the kremlin see a clear weakness in the EU and pounced on it .
The EU are busy playing monopoly banking edition and are in no way prepared for conflicts anywhere in Europe .
Ask why poland,lativa ,Lithuania,romania to name a few asked the US to Station troops in their respective sovereign state's and not german or French .
The Baltic and eastern European states have no confidence in the EU to defend them from possible russian aggressors .
Hence why Ukraine went the the US and UK to ask for assistance in reorganising there military forces and command structures .

how many times does this have to be pointed out Ukraine isn't and never will be a member of NATO. nor are they a member of the EU. thankfully on both counts why would we want them in either the country is a basket case it makes zero economic and political sense having anything to do with them. their only use to us is their pipelines yet the gas comes from Russia. Ukraine is of no use to us only problems. although it's quite apparent the Americans have other ideas and reasons for getting involved in Ukraine. the British are just tagging along. the Germans and French are the reason why all of Ukraine maybe the entire continent isnt already burning they are pushing back against the Americans making things a million times worse. a point that appears lost to the Natowhoyaawarriors sect. this premise that Russia is going to attack or invade a NATO member and start a thermonuclear war is ludicrous. it's nonsense. no other words for it. the Germans are saying Breedlove and Nato are talking sh1te. what are we to make of that.

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Funny, I would have thought invading another country would fall under the heading of military escalation. Such an unreasonable action by these countries to increase their defensive capabilities along the borders that they share with Russia.
This is exactly the mindset that perpetrates this mess. It's no one's backyard, it is a sovereign country; a fact that Russia feels shouldn't get in the way of its regional goals. You're awful quick to throw criticism at the US for claimed interference and to laud the Germans and the French for their efforts at negotiation. I'm sure the countries in that region have good recollection of the negotiation that took place on their behalf after WW2 between the Allies. Ask Poland how that worked out for them.

Perhaps the Ukrainian government is a better student of history that you are, and feels that receiving actual assistance in the form of materiel and arms to fight an invader is more useful than the diplomatic solutions being proposed by parties that have little ability to pose any military threat to Russia and thus bring little leverage to the negotiating table.

Perhaps the Ukrainian government that non EU non NATO member should phuck off and fight their own war. if that's indeed what they want to do. Europe is our backyard not the Americans. I dunno perhaps some really do like being the empires bitch. funny that.

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

Perhaps the Ukrainian government that non EU non NATO member should phuck off and fight their own war. if that's indeed what they want to do. Europe is our backyard not the Americans. I dunno perhaps some really do like being the empires bitch. funny that.

So basically let russia have ukraine by any means necessary .

So much for democracy the Ukrainian people want to become part of Europe

WakeUp

Gatling wrote: »

So basically let russia have ukraine by any means necessary .

So much for democracy the Ukrainian people want to become part of Europe

that isn't what I said. doesn't matter what the Ukrainian people want it doesn't make any sense bringing them into the EU or NATO feelings or whatever have no place in such matters. if only the world was such a lovely place then maybe but alas it isn't. they are of no use to us. only problems.

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

that isn't what I said. doesn't matter what the Ukrainian people want it doesn't make any sense bringing them into the EU or NATO feelings or whatever have no place in such matters. if only the world was such a lovely place then maybe but alas it isn't. they are of no use to us. only problems.

I'm sure there is plenty in Europe who say the exact same about us

karma_

Gatling wrote: »

So basically let russia have ukraine by any means necessary .

So much for democracy the Ukrainian people want to become part of Europe

No amount of handwringing on your part will change the situation from what it is, a Ukrainian/Russian problem.

BoJack Horseman

karma_ wrote: »

No amount of handwringing on your part will change the situation from what it is, a Ukrainian/Russian problem.

Yes, we know the war is between Russia & Ukraine.

What's your point?

Gatling

karma_ wrote: »

No amount of handwringing on your part will change the situation from what it is, a Ukrainian/Russian problem.

Totally disagree

Lemming

From an article on the BBC website today: Putin reveals Russia secret Crimea takeover in documentary

Mr Putin is seen describing the meeting, held during the night of 22 and 23 February, with the heads of Russia's special services as well as its defence ministry.

"I invited the leaders of our special services and the defence ministry to the Kremlin and set them the task of saving the life of the president of Ukraine [Viktor Yanukovych], who would simply have been liquidated," Mr Putin says.

"We finished about seven in the morning. When we were parting, I told all my colleagues, 'We are forced to begin the work to bring Crimea back into Russia'."

Four days later, on 27 February, armed men seized the local parliament and local government buildings in Crimea, raising the Russian flag.

TBH, as much as everyone knew what was going on with Crimea despite the "official" denial, it raises a question of false flag operations; annex part of another country whilst claiming to rescue someone who has fled to the safety of your own borders".

More worryingly is the comment about being "forced to begin the work" to annex Crimea as if this had already long been in planning. Reading between the lines it confirms Putin wants to re-establish the borders & perceived reach of the former USSR.

oldozer

TBH, as much as everyone knew what was going on with Crimea despite the "official" denial, it raises a question of false flag operations; annex part of another country whilst claiming to rescue someone who has fled to the safety of your own borders".

More worryingly is the comment about being "forced to begin the work" to annex Crimea as if this had already long been in planning. Reading between the lines it confirms Putin wants to re-establish the borders & perceived reach of the former USSR.[/QUOTE]

There is also some site out there about Libya and how Putin was pissed as Obama had gone beyond his remit. Then we had Syria and Assad using gas to kill his own people.

Quite the game would you think ?

If you were Putin, how would you play ?

robindch

Here's a trailer for that "documentary" on Russia's invasion of Crimea - with English subtitles (the translation is generally accurate):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11458426/Putin-reveals-the-moment-he-gave-the-secret-order-for-Russias-annexation-of-Crimea.html

As lemming points out, the crucial quote is:

Putin wrote:

I told all my colleagues, 'We are forced to begin the work to bring Crimea back into Russia'.

I can't wait to see how this will be spun by the pro-Kremlin propaganda machine - they'll probably play the "loyal, resolute + foresightful leader" angle as opposed to the more accurate "dishonest, thieving + murderous *******" line.

Lemming

oldozer wrote: »

There is also some site out there about Libya and how Putin was pissed as Obama had gone beyond his remit. Then we had Syria and Assad using gas to kill his own people.

Quite the game would you think ?

If you were Putin, how would you play ?

Welcome to "Whataboutery fails-ville", population you.

But to answer your question: I'm not a sociopath (and/or/with delusions of grandeur), so I suppose not invading another country under the most dubous & manufactured conditions possible, resulting in thousands of deaths would be a good play.

robindch

Agitprop update!

Turns out that Sweden must also accept part of the blame for "provoking" Russia into invading Ukraine:

http://www.thelocal.se/20150309/russia-blames-sweden-for-ukraine-crisis

Who'd have thought?! Peaceful Sweden...

oldozer

Lemming wrote: »

Welcome to "Whataboutery fails-ville", population you.

But to answer your question: I'm not a sociopath (and/or/with delusions of grandeur), so I suppose not invading another country under the most dubous & manufactured conditions possible, resulting in thousands of deaths would be a good play.

If memory serves Putin and his mob were in Crimea as the Coup happened in Ukraine proper.
Maybe he thought it just a fad like Soros/Neuland was starting and he was trying to stay in fashion.

Try not to put words where I would not ../grandeur (sp).

Dozer.

Lemming

oldozer wrote: »

If memory serves Putin and his mob were in Crimea as the Coup happened in Ukraine proper.
Maybe he thought it just a fad like Soros/Neuland was starting and he was trying to stay in fashion.

Try not to put words where I would not ../grandeur (sp).

Dozer.

The order was supposedly given four days after (during the aforementioned Putin meeting) Yanukovych fled upon the Ukranian parliament ruling against him. So that time frame would go against any sort of memory and any notions of the Crimean annexation being anything other than an opportunistic land-grab. Unless of course Putin already had agents in Crimea preparing to instigate insurrection which would paint Russia in an even less favourable light than it has already cast itself.