Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

WakeUp

robindch wrote: »

Oh I don't know. The guy must be paid to speak or something. Maybe he's a journalist.

Пиво anybody? I have a paper bag here if anybody wants to lend me some.

is that about all youve got . can I have an opinion too even if it does differ with the vast majority of people on this thread. is that ok with you.

gandalf

Ignore my post Wakeup I saw you answered it in the second bit of that paragraph.

Regarding Turkey and Cypress that is now a historical situation and the only way to sort it out now is via negotiation between the two sides. This has been ongoing for years.

The conflict in the Ukraine is happening still so decisive action now can remove the situation stagnating like it has in Cypress basically disembowelling the Ukraine as a country.

Sanctions have to be applied at an even stronger level, international events need to be made to move from there and defensive capabilities do need to be bolstered.

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

This thread is about the Ukraine and the interference in the same by the Russians.

Now I asked you a very direct set of questions to determine if your hand wringing is actually genuine or if you are just playing along and firing in deflections like this Turkish one. As expected you didn't or couldn't answer.

From my perspective what has happened here is quite clearly a crude attempt at deflection away from the topic at hand.

So again judging from your vast archive of responses here you seem to be saying the Russians are wrong.

If that is the case should they be sanctioned from their wrongdoing yes or no?

And if you think they should what form should that take?

your "perspective" is nice and all though clearly the Russians are in the wrong with what they did in Crimea when I have ever disputed that. the answer is I havent. yeah you can sanction Russia but they arent going to work and get them too reverse what they have done. and where do the sanctions end. whats the plan? sanction and threaten Russia until what? its funny you accuse me of hand wringing let me see do I have this right your attempt at deflection by the way has been noted though I will try again...Russia annexes Crimea (non EU territory) = bad ( which I agree with it was wrong ) Turkey annexes part of Cyprus (EU member) = 1974 whatever shush dont talk about that...have I got that about right?..why cant you state your position on Turkeys annexation of part of Cyprus. your big on "international law" "respecting borders" and such so whats the story there....

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

Ignore my post Wakeup I saw you answered it in the second bit of that paragraph.

Regarding Turkey and Cypress that is now a historical situation and the other way to sort it out now is via negotiation between the two sides. This has been ongoing for years.

The conflict in the Ukraine is happening still so decisive action now can remove the situation stagnating like it has in Cypress basically disembowelling the Ukraine as a country.

Sanctions have to be applied at an even stronger level, international events need to be made to move from there and defensive capabilities do need to be bolstered.

likewise ignore mine too Gandalf negotiation with regard to Turkey/Cyprus is the way forward. I agree with that. fair enough.

gandalf

BTW if it was 1974 then I would have had exactly the same attitude that Turkey should be compelled to hand back all Cypriot Territory. However it isn't and the situation is 41 years old and is in no way comparable to what is happening today in the Ukraine. Again as I have said already decisive action taken now will ensure the Ukraine will not be gutted as a country to the benefit of the aggressor.

I do agree that the Crimea will more than likely never return to the Ukraine. In that case Russia should be made pay substantial reparations to the Ukrainians for the damage and for the illegal annexation of the territory,

Gatling

gandalf wrote: »

BTW if it was 1974 then I would have had exactly the same attitude that Turkey should be compelled to hand back all Cypriot Territory. However it isn't and the situation is 41 years old and is in no way comparable to what is happening today in the Ukraine. Again as I have said already decisive action taken now will ensure the Ukraine will not be gutted as a country to the benefit of the aggressor.

I do agree that the Crimea will more than likely never return to the Ukraine. In that case Russia should be made pay substantial reparations to the Ukrainians for the damage and for the illegal annexation of the territory,

And not a word about the annexation of East Germany .

Yet .

I get the feelings Georgia is next on the conquest list considering the kremlin now directly controls the military of the breakaway state of Abkhazia which also has a black sea port .
That's 2 states in Georgia under direct control of the kremlin ,which is worrying in itself

WakeUp

robindch wrote: »

Not a "different opinion", but bluster roughly in line with what Peter Pomerantsev discusses from around six minutes onwards here:

actually speaking of bluster I meant to post this yesterday but didnt get a chance. check this nutjob out. this retired US general should be sanctioned for being phucked in the head. lets kill Russians. this guy thinks the US can "turn the tide" by killing Russians. he actually believes that this is what youre dealing with some across the water in Washington. mental. because killing Russians is ya know grand and all matter of fact and the Russians will just be totally cool with this. they wont react at all to killing lots of Russians. nope not even remotely. crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm-U7AwRhHQ

gandalf

He is just a mirror of a Russian who said that they would turn the US into a radioactive wasteland last year. Plus you have to remember which channel he was on, Fox News the US version of the comedy news channel RT.

Nutters on all sides so it seems.

A prominent Russian TV presenter is warning that Russia could nuke the United States into oblivion.

Dmitry Kiselyov, who hosts an influential Sunday evening program on the main state-owned channel, posed in front of a mushroom cloud graphic Sunday night and ranted about how Russia is the only country in the world still capable of turning the United States into "radioactive dust."

He also suggested that President Obama's hair is graying because of fears about Russia's nuclear arsenal.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/russian-broadcaster-warns-turning-us-radioactive-dust/story?id=22936988

The US authorities have already distanced themselves from the retired Generals remarks.

US Department of State spokesperson Jen Psaki said that the comments by former US Army Major General Robert Scales urging to kill as many Russians as possible to end the Ukrainian conflict do not represent the US position.

...

“It sounds like you are referring to a retired individual who does not speak for the US government and certainly it is not consistent with our beliefs, Psaki said, when asked to comment Scales’ remarks.

http://sputniknews.com/us/20150313/1019474520.html

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

He is just a mirror of a Russian who said that they would turn the US into a radioactive wasteland last year. Plus you have to remember which channel he was on, Fox News the US version of the comedy news channel RT.

Nutters on all sides so it seems.



http://abcnews.go.com/International/russian-broadcaster-warns-turning-us-radioactive-dust/story?id=22936988

The US authorities have already distanced themselves from the retired Generals remarks.



http://sputniknews.com/us/20150313/1019474520.html

yep I read about those comments from that Russian presenter alright just crazy. the same with this retired general. some people are just nuts.

Icepick

WakeUp wrote: »

actually speaking of bluster I meant to post this yesterday but didnt get a chance. check this nutjob out. this retired US general should be sanctioned for being phucked in the head. lets kill Russians. this guy thinks the US can "turn the tide" by killing Russians. he actually believes that this is what youre dealing with some across the water in Washington. mental. because killing Russians is ya know grand and all matter of fact and the Russians will just be totally cool with this. they wont react at all to killing lots of Russians. nope not even remotely. crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm-U7AwRhHQ

So you admit the Russian army is in eastern Ukraine? And what do you propose is to be done with soldiers occupying another country refusing to leave?

WakeUp

Icepick wrote: »

So you admit the Russian army is in eastern Ukraine? And what do you propose is to be done with soldiers occupying another country refusing to leave?

lol wow you got me haven't you. well done. because I've constantly denied Russian involvement in all of this. are the Russian army on the ground in some capacity I'm eastern Ukraine the evidence would suggest yes they are. are they there in the numbers this guy and NATO claim. not according to German intelligence they aren't. are you actually suggesting you agree with this crackpot? that the US should start killing Russians? that General is a certified headcase judging by his "sadly we won't be" "killing Russians" comment. So do you agree with the bonkers headbanger off the wall general then? same question for any of the other warriors on the thread.

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

lol wow you got me haven't you. well done. because I've constantly denied Russian involvement in all of this. are the Russian army on the ground in some capacity I'm eastern Ukraine the evidence would suggest yes they are. are they there in the numbers this guy and NATO claim. not according to German intelligence they aren't. are you actually suggesting you agree with this crackpot? that the US should start killing Russians? that General is a certified headcase judging by his "sadly we won't be" "killing Russians" comment. So do you agree with the bonkers headbanger off the wall general then? same question for any of the other warriors on the thread.

Whats with the constant Americans are crackpots everytime you mention an American source you say the exact same things .

I've yet to see any german intelligence from Ukraine .

Now russia is deploying 40,000 to the artic along with a substantial naval force and sending missles to Kaliningrad which just happens to sit between poland and Lithuania ramping up tensions in the Baltic

WakeUp

Gatling wrote: »

Whats with the constant Americans are crackpots everytime you mention an American source you say the exact same things .

I've yet to see any german intelligence from Ukraine .

Now russia is deploying 40,000 to the artic along with a substantial naval force and sending missles to Kaliningrad which just happens to sit between poland and Lithuania ramping up tensions in the Baltic

Do I now. do you agree with this particular American nutjob general then?..would this guy be about on the money and represent the thoughts of the warriors on the thread. is Putin planning on invading the artic then..Eskimos be phucked so. do any even live there. the Germans are of the opinion that NATO in many instances has been talk sh1te strangelove in particular. Well do you agree with the general or not?..

Lemming

WakeUp wrote: »

Do I now. do you agree with this particular American nutjob general then?..would this guy be about on the money and represent the thoughts of the warriors on the thread. is Putin planning on invading the artic then..Eskimos be phucked so. do any even live there. the Germans are of the opinion that NATO in many instances has been talk sh1te strangelove in particular. Well do you agree with the general or not?..

I think you've missed some very important context in what the aforementioned general has said. His point was that the only way that America could make a meaningful contribution that would change the situation "on the ground" was to kill Russians; i.e. wasn't going to happen for what should be fairly obvious reasons.

He could have phrased it better I'm sure, to cater for the Captain-Obvious brigade.

robindch

Lemming wrote: »

He could have phrased it better I'm sure, to cater for the Captain-Obvious brigade.

It's worth noting that one common approach amongst pro-Kremlin posters is to latch onto outlier comments like this, whether or not made by people holding policy-making positions, to make it seem like the US is an aggressor nation. The intention is less to clarify the debate and more to muddy it.

Pro-Kremlin posters will tend to avoid commenting on bellicose remarks by the Russian side though. One example being Putin's admission a few days back that he was prepared to bring his nuclear weapons to a state of "readiness" -- presumably with a view to threatening to use them -- during the invasion and annexation of Crimea.

On the one side, you had small numbers of protesters armed with sticks and stones in Kiev, and on the other, there's a credible threat of nuclear weapons. And which side does Russian state-controlled media and its supporters complain about? :rolleyes:

gandalf

The one thought I'd have about that American General is that he is a retired very fringe player with no influence on the current US administration, the worrying thing is the people making the "crazy" noises from the Russian side still have very clear and direct connections with the Kremlin.

WakeUp

Lemming wrote: »

I think you've missed some very important context in what the aforementioned general has said. His point was that the only way that America could make a meaningful contribution that would change the situation "on the ground" was to kill Russians; i.e. wasn't going to happen for what should be fairly obvious reasons.

He could have phrased it better I'm sure, to cater for the Captain-Obvious brigade.

context? his point? what point the man is a head case if he believes what he said . like his deluded rambling about turning the tide by killing lots of Russians so many Russians infact that it can't be missed..he then quantifies this by saying "sadly this isn't going to happen" the General appears "sad" that this appears unlikely to happen...what have I missed?...

WakeUp

robindch wrote: »

It's worth noting that one common approach amongst pro-Kremlin posters is to latch onto outlier comments like this, whether or not made by people holding policy-making positions, to make it seem like the US is an aggressor nation. The intention is less to clarify the debate and more to muddy it.

Pro-Kremlin posters will tend to avoid commenting on bellicose remarks by the Russian side though. One example being Putin's admission a few days back that he was prepared to bring his nuclear weapons to a state of "readiness" -- presumably with a view to threatening to use them -- during the invasion and annexation of Crimea.

On the one side, you had small numbers of protesters armed with sticks and stones in Kiev, and on the other, there's a credible threat of nuclear weapons. And which side does Russian state-controlled media and its supporters complain about? :rolleyes:

wait, what are you saying here the US isn't an aggressor nation? seriously. are you talking about the situation in Ukraine/Russia or just in general. Am I Russian state controlled media or a supporter. it's the defacto tactic of the whoyaa gang on this thread to place anyone who disagrees on certain aspects or has a differing opinion in such a box. you were recently in Ukraine is that right? so you have a horse in this race would that be also right...unlike you I don't give a sh1t about Ukraine no more than I give a sh1t about Russia..what's your position on the Kiev government murdering and shelling their own people in the east? do you believe NATO should get involved in Ukraine..should the Americans arm Ukraine?....

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

The one thought I'd have about that American General is that he is a retired very fringe player with no influence on the current US administration, the worrying thing is the people making the "crazy" noises from the Russian side still have very clear and direct connections with the Kremlin.

I agree it is worrying. the message is this from the Russians - Crimea is gone and we are prepared to use our nukes to defend it phuck you what are you going to do about it. that's the message between the lines of Putin admitting as such. crazy? of course it is any talk of using nuclear weapons is crazy. nuclear weapons are crazy. just like being sad that lots of Russians won't be killed by the US is crazy.

robindch

WakeUp wrote: »

you were recently in Ukraine is that right? so you have a horse in this race would that be also right...unlike you I don't give a sh1t about Ukraine no more than I give a sh1t about Russia.

Yes, I've been in Ukraine many times and speak Russian tolerably badly.

And as you imply, unlike you, I care fairly strongly about what happens there, not only for the sake of the citizens of Ukraine who've been let down atrociously by their own politicians, by Russia and to a lesser extent, by the rest of the world. But also because the Russian invasion has dramatically destabilized the country, has destroyed the European security architecture which has helped keep the region's uneasy peace since WWII, has brought widescale war and death to East Ukraine and allows Putin, at least in his eyes, to threaten nuclear weapons in pursuit of whatever goals he happens to dream up.

WakeUp wrote: »

wait, what are you saying here the US isn't an aggressor nation? seriously.

Yes. The US has supplied no troops formally or informally. There have been some US citizens fighting with various battalions, but so far as I can establish, the numbers are very low - probably no more than fifty, and probably much fewer. At least one US Army veteran died fighting in East Ukraine.

The US has supplied non-lethal material to the elected government in Kiev, but it has not supplied or sold any lethal weaponry. Lithuania has supplied token weaponry to Ukraine and Poland has debated doing so, but has not done so yet. Canada has supplied non-lethal materials to Kiev and there have been government-level calls for the supply of lethal weaponry.

So, summary: US has supplied non-lethal aid; Poland + Canada are debating doing so; Lithuania has supplied trivial amounts. Meanwhile, Russia floods East Ukraine with predatory propaganda, troops, volunteers, mercenaries, light and heavy weaponry and was prepared to threaten nuclear weapons. But the US is the aggressor?

Not really.

WakeUp

robindch wrote: »

Yes, I've been in Ukraine many times and speak Russian tolerably badly.

And as you imply, unlike you, I care fairly strongly about what happens there, not only for the sake of the citizens of Ukraine who've been let down atrociously by their own politicians, by Russia and to a lesser extent, by the rest of the world. But also because the Russian invasion has dramatically destabilized the country, has destroyed the European security architecture which has helped keep the region's uneasy peace since WWII, has brought widescale war and death to East Ukraine and allows Putin, at least in his eyes, to threaten nuclear weapons in pursuit of whatever goals he happens to dream up.Yes. The US has supplied no troops formally or informally. There have been some US citizens fighting with various battalions, but so far as I can establish, the numbers are very low - probably no more than fifty, and probably much fewer. At least one US Army veteran died fighting in East Ukraine.

The US has supplied non-lethal material to the elected government in Kiev, but it has not supplied or sold any lethal weaponry. Lithuania has supplied token weaponry to Ukraine and Poland has debated doing so, but has not done so yet. Canada has supplied non-lethal materials to Kiev and there have been government-level calls for the supply of lethal weaponry.

So, summary: US has supplied non-lethal aid; Poland + Canada are debating doing so; Lithuania has supplied trivial amounts. Meanwhile, Russia floods East Ukraine with predatory propaganda, troops, volunteers, mercenaries, light and heavy weaponry and was prepared to threaten nuclear weapons. But the US is the aggressor?

Not really.

thanks for that reply. Im heading out later on I wont be able to reply to this in detail till tomorrow. will get back to you then.

robindch

Russia steals more territory, from another relatively defenceless country. This time, it's Georgia.

http://news.yahoo.com/putin-signs-treaty-integrating-south-ossetia-russia-134209512.html

Yahoo wrote:

MOSCOW (AP) — Russia tightened its control Wednesday over a second breakaway region of Georgia, with Russian President Vladimir Putin and the leader of South Ossetia signing a new treaty that calls for nearly full integration. Georgian President Giorgi Margvelashvili denounced the signing as a "destructive" move against his nation's sovereignty and territorial integrity and said it would further exacerbate tensions. The United States, the European Union and NATO also strongly condemned the signing.

South Ossetia broke away from Georgia in the early 1990s as the Soviet Union collapsed. Russia effectively gained complete control over it and a second breakaway Georgian region, Abkhazia, after a brief war against Georgia in 2008. A similar treaty was signed last year with Abkhazia. Both regions depend on subsidies from Russia. While Abkhazia is a lush sliver of land along the Black Sea coast, South Ossetia sticks like a thumb into northern Georgia.

Under the agreement signed Wednesday in the Kremlin, South Ossetia's military and economy are to be incorporated into Russia's. The treaty also promises to make it easier for South Ossetians to get Russian citizenship and to raise salaries for civil servants and state pensions.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said the Russian move "violates Georgia's sovereignty and territorial integrity and blatantly contradicts the principles of international law, OSCE principles and Russia's international commitments."

Icepick

WakeUp wrote: »

,

Yes, Ukraine should receive military help and Ireland should help too (training with Ukrainian troops).
We should be glad that we have a chance to stop Putin's regime's imperial ambitions so relatively early.

Gatling

robindch wrote: »

Russia steals more territory, from another relatively defenceless country. This time, it's Georgia.

http://news.yahoo.com/putin-signs-treaty-integrating-south-ossetia-russia-134209512.html

Yeah it was bound to happen another pure landgrab I remember seeing a documentry on what happened in South Ossetia after the russians got involved ,
A border appeared over night manned by little green men who claimed to be the south occetia army and put landmines in farmers land that didn't support the idea

robindch

Gatling wrote: »

[...] another pure landgrab I remember seeing a documentry on what happened in South Ossetia after the russians got involved [...]

That was about the height of it. While I've not been in South Ossetia (and am far less likely to go there now), I did drive by fairly close and did manage to spend a week or so in the similar potato republic of Abkhazia down the road.

And it's a grim place. I couldn't summarize it better than by recalling the two older factory workers from Siberia whom I met one evening sipping beer in one of the near-empty beer shacks on the beach in Gagra and who'd honeymoon'd there in the early 70's and who'd come back as they were retiring. They were not happy about how much social progress the place had made (none), what the new facilities were like (none either) and crime (lots). Had hassles myself with locals too and was happy to get back to the relative security and sanity of Tblisi via some very long taxi-rides through disputed territory "guarded" by the same little green men, one taxi-ride with a psychopath recommended by a local Russian military commander, accusations of being a spy by others, trips past mined fields, and a run-in with some leery policemen whose interest in a bribe evaporated somewhat when I showed them a picture of me shaking hands with the de facto minister of defence.

Certainly made a change from going to Ballybunion for a weekend.

Elmer Blooker

robindch wrote: »

Russia steals more territory, from another relatively defenceless country. This time, it's Georgia.

Nice bit of predatory propaganda there but fair play to you for managing to someone bring up South Ossetia in the Ukraine thread.
For your information and also for "after the Russians got involved" gatling, Ossetians and Georgians fought a war in 1918-20. In 1990 after the break up of the Soviet Union Ossetia declared independence, Georgia attacked them. There were other wars in '04 and '08 when Georgia attacked again. The reality of the situation is that Ossetians look to Russia for protection and have been doing since since long before Putin. Not sure what your last post is about to be honest.

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Nice bit of predatory propaganda there but fair play to you for managing to someone bring up South Ossetia in the Ukraine thread.
For your information and also for "after the Russians got involved" gatling, Ossetians and Georgians fought a war in 1918-20. In 1990 after the break up of the Soviet Union Ossetia declared independence, Georgia attacked them. There were other wars in '04 and '08 when Georgia attacked again. The reality of the situation is that Ossetians look to Russia for protection and have been doing since since long before Putin. Not sure what your last post is about to be honest.

So basically east ukraine practice run then

gandalf

What you call propaganda Elmer is fact and proof that the Putin Junta doesn't respect borders or international law and cannot be trusted during any negotiations as the Georgians found out today.

Lemming

WakeUp wrote: »

context? his point? what point the man is a head case if he believes what he said . like his deluded rambling about turning the tide by killing lots of Russians so many Russians infact that it can't be missed..he then quantifies this by saying "sadly this isn't going to happen" the General appears "sad" that this appears unlikely to happen...what have I missed?...

You have missed the following: he says that the reality of the situation effectively cedes parts of Eastern Ukraine to the Russians and that the only way for the US to provide any sort of positrive outcome would be to kill lots of Russians on behalf of the Ukrainians. He then goes into the amount of support given already, and from the Ukranians own efforts; "sadly" there wont be any difference made.

That's what he was saying; not "sadly" there wont be any Russians killed. He's a retired general; you don't reach that rank by being a political idiot, so I sincerely doubt he was advocating "lets go kill lots of Russians & start a really big war". But you're too busy jumping up and down frothing at the mouth to analyse what he's said and the context in which it's said.

robindch

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The reality of the situation is that Ossetians look to Russia for protection and have been doing since since long before Putin.

Not really. The men controlling Ossetia are seeking Russian control because they know they can continue their criminal activities largely unhindered by the slightly less criminally-minded policies of the Georgian government. Quite like what's happening in East Ukraine, Transnistra and Abkhazia where similar corrupt, warlord + clan style satrapies now exist.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Not sure what your last post is about to be honest.

It's about a trip I made to Abkhazia in which I suggest -- fairly bluntly I'd have thought -- that a region of an emerging democratic country which has "broken away" with substantial Russian support, will become stuck, if it hasn't already, in a bizarre, crime-ridden, socially-deprived timewarp.

I could write a similar paragraph about my trip to the weird province of Transnistra if you'd like.