Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Elmer Blooker

robindch wrote: »

Not really. The men controlling Ossetia are seeking Russian control because they know they can continue their criminal activities largely unhindered by the slightly less criminally-minded policies of the Georgian government. Quite like what's happening in East Ukraine,

So the 1918-20 Georgia-Ossetia war was all about criminality then?
There is a chance that the ethnic Russian population of east Ukraine totally reject the coup and do not recognise the puppet regime installed in Kiev you know.
While I'm on the subject of criminality, corruption etc you members of the NATO supporters club should take a close look at the democratic utopia of Azerbaijan.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49111.htm

WakeUp

robindch wrote: »

Yes, I've been in Ukraine many times and speak Russian tolerably badly.

And as you imply, unlike you, I care fairly strongly about what happens there, not only for the sake of the citizens of Ukraine who've been let down atrociously by their own politicians, by Russia and to a lesser extent, by the rest of the world. But also because the Russian invasion has dramatically destabilized the country, has destroyed the European security architecture which has helped keep the region's uneasy peace since WWII, has brought widescale war and death to East Ukraine and allows Putin, at least in his eyes, to threaten nuclear weapons in pursuit of whatever goals he happens to dream up.Yes. The US has supplied no troops formally or informally. There have been some US citizens fighting with various battalions, but so far as I can establish, the numbers are very low - probably no more than fifty, and probably much fewer. At least one US Army veteran died fighting in East Ukraine.

What does the world owe Ukraine?.. why has Ukraine been let down by the world. I agree with you Ukraine has been let down by its leaders they are a collective bunch of strategic illiterates. and Russia is responsible for annexing Crimea they have been let down too by them too. that probably isnt the right description phucked over as opposed to let down with regard to Russia is more apt I would think. I have a question though..if the people in East Ukraine voted to break away from Ukraine should they be allowed too? what is the best way forward in your eyes to try and bring an end to what is happening...war or diplomacy? Putins nuke threats in my opinion are not directed at Ukrainians sure he wouldnt need them for that but directed at Nato and the Americans/British in particular.

The US has supplied non-lethal material to the elected government in Kiev, but it has not supplied or sold any lethal weaponry. Lithuania has supplied token weaponry to Ukraine and Poland has debated doing so, but has not done so yet. Canada has supplied non-lethal materials to Kiev and there have been government-level calls for the supply of lethal weaponry.

So, summary: US has supplied non-lethal aid; Poland + Canada are debating doing so; Lithuania has supplied trivial amounts. Meanwhile, Russia floods East Ukraine with predatory propaganda, troops, volunteers, mercenaries, light and heavy weaponry and was prepared to threaten nuclear weapons. But the US is the aggressor?

Not really.

youre shifting the goal posts slightly here in the post I was replying to you said "an" aggressor nation yet now you are asking if the US is "the" aggressor nation. I didnt indicate. obviously the US is an aggressor nation history says so though is the US the aggressor in Ukraine/Crimea. nope they arent. but they arent going to help or solve the situation there. do you believe Ukraine should be armed?...who do you think should fight their battle for them...

Lemming wrote: »

You have missed the following: he says that the reality of the situation effectively cedes parts of Eastern Ukraine to the Russians and that the only way for the US to provide any sort of positrive outcome would be to kill lots of Russians on behalf of the Ukrainians. He then goes into the amount of support given already, and from the Ukranians own efforts; "sadly" there wont be any difference made.

That's what he was saying; not "sadly" there wont be any Russians killed. He's a retired general; you don't reach that rank by being a political idiot, so I sincerely doubt he was advocating "lets go kill lots of Russians & start a really big war". But you're too busy jumping up and down frothing at the mouth to analyse what he's said and the context in which it's said.

yes because thats exactly what Im doing isnt it :rolleyes: youre either watching a different video than me or youre being obtuse and making excuses on purpose. which is it?....

WakeUp

Icepick wrote: »

Yes, Ukraine should receive military help and Ireland should help too

:rolleyes: whooya.

Lemming

WakeUp wrote: »

yes because thats exactly what Im doing isnt it :rolleyes: youre either watching a different video than me or youre being obtuse and making excuses on purpose. which is it?....

No, I'm watching the exact same video. The retired general talks about different things inside the segement shown. At best it's uncertain as to what he refers to as "sadly"; but the simplest explanation is usually the correct one; he opens talking about what the US can do to positive effect, wanders into what would really need to be done "on the ground" (and you can tell he is wandering because he loses his train of speech at one point) and then comes back to things the US & the Ukraine have actually done thus far and that sadly there will be no change "on the ground" despite this.

Or; I could do the following to be obtuse if you really wanted me to be: quote me the exact sentence where he says that killing russians is what is needed and sadly will not happen.

Because he never says that. And you know it. You're just in too much of a hurry trying to put 1 + 1 together and getting 3.

WakeUp

Lemming wrote: »

No, I'm watching the exact same video. The retired general talks about different things inside the segement shown. At best it's uncertain as to what he refers to as "sadly"; but the simplest explanation is usually the correct one; he opens talking about what the US can do to positive effect, wanders into what would really need to be done "on the ground" (and you can tell he is wandering because he loses his train of speech at one point) and then comes back to things the US & the Ukraine have actually done thus far and that sadly there will be no change "on the ground" despite this.

Or; I could do the following to be obtuse if you really wanted me to be: quote me the exact sentence where he says that killing russians is what is needed and sadly will not happen.

Because he never says that. And you know it. You're just in too much of a hurry trying to put 1 + 1 together and getting 3.

hes wandering alright. positive effect??:D exactly. even if youre still a little "uncertain" as to the good generals motivation for sadness. because killing lots of Russians is going to have a "positive effect" on , well , anything.

Lemming

WakeUp wrote: »

hes wandering alright. positive effect??:D exactly. even if youre still a little "uncertain" as to the good generals motivation for sadness. because killing lots of Russians is going to have a "positive effect" on , well , anything.

Meanwhile, outside kremlin-fantasy land ....


Now who is being obtuse?

He knows that killing Russians is an absurd proposition to fix the issue. Which is why he says right at the start that it is - and I quote - "game, set, and match" - to Russia because nothing else will have any immediate effect on the current situation.

But you continue believing whatever kool-aid the Kremlin is feeding you. All the smile faces in the world wont change what I've pointed out.

WakeUp

Lemming wrote: »

Meanwhile, outside kremlin-fantasy land ....


Now who is being obtuse?

He knows that killing Russians is an absurd proposition to fix the issue. Which is why he says right at the start that it is - and I quote - "game, set, and match" - to Russia because nothing else will have any immediate effect on the current situation.

But you continue believing whatever kool-aid the Kremlin is feeding you. All the smile faces in the world wont change what I've pointed out.

ok ,what are you talking about?. how do you know he believes killing lots of Russians is an absurd proposition or have you just decided that now. and if he truly believes killing lots of Russians is an absurd proposition then why is he talking about it or in your own words "talking about what the US can do to positive effect" so which is it absurd or positive?...killing lots of Russians will have a positive effect...you were saying.....

gandalf

I find it very interesting that so much effort is being expended at the musings of a retired US General when the reality of the whole situation in the Ukraine is effecting so many countries in the local region.

Lithuania definitely think there is a very real and present danger from the Russian menace at their doorset they have resurrected conscription for their armed forces.

Lithuanian men aged 19-26 could soon find themselves carrying out military exercises as the country announces plans to bring back military conscription.

The draft ended in 2008, but the authorities said the measure was necessary due to Russia’s ‘growing aggression in Ukraine’.

Lithuania shares a border with the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad, and has reported airspace violations in recent months.

http://www.euronews.com/2015/02/25/lithuania-to-bring-back-military-conscription-to-counter-russian-threat/

Estonia have already seen the dirty tricks at first hand from the Russians with the "capture" of one of their officials on or inside the border.

The Estonian-Russia border at Luhamaa does not look like a new Checkpoint Charlie. Set among the wooded plains that mark Nato and the European Union's eastern-most territory, the crossing is more likely to be the site of long lines of idling lorries than machine-gun nests and prisoner exchanges.

But that era of post-cold war calm may have come to an end on Friday morning, when, according to several Estonian accounts, smoke grenades detonated at an Estonian customs post, and all radio and telephone signals were jammed as armed Russian men suddenly materialised and dragged away a local official.

His name is Eston Kohver, a counter-intelligence officer in the Estonian security agency, Kapo, whose job over the past few years has been to keep tabs on the smuggling cartels trying to sneak merchandise through the Luhamaa crossing.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/russia-parades-detained-estonian-police-officer

Of course this use of the "Russian Minority" by Putin is having the real effect of them now being viewed with suspicion within their own countries. Something that could then be pounced upon by the Russians as a catalyst to "act".

“We were perceived here as the hand of Moscow, even though we did nothing,” says Dragile. The teacher and social activist is singled out in the 2013 Latvian Security Police report issued in May for associating with two older activists accused of stirring unrest among the large ethnic Russian community. Her organization PEROM, which advocates for more rights for Russian speakers in Latvia, has also received financial aid from a Moscow-based cultural fund, Russkiy Mir (Russian World).

These are sensitive issues at a time when Russian President Vladimir Putin is using the pretext of protecting ethnic Russians in former Soviet states for territorial expansion. With a long history of Soviet occupation, a border with Russia, and the largest Russian-speaking community in the European Union, events in Ukraine have revived fears for Latvia’s own independence ahead of the country’s parliamentary elections this weekend.

If you want a look at the mindset of the so-called Eastern Ukrainian "Rebels" then this is a good article from Der Speigel. Putting someone like this into a position of power is a very worrying thing.

Will it come back and bite Putin in an unexpected manner in the future if he doesn't deliver the borders that men like Strelkov desire?

Strelkov says that his new adversaries are the adherents of the liberal opposition who, he believes, are planning a pro-Western revolution on the model of Kiev's Maidan Square in Moscow. When asked if he regrets the death of the murdered opposition leader Boris Nemtsov, Strelkov's press spokesman intervenes, concerned that the question is too provocative. But the rebel leader answers anyway. "Nemtsov had no talent and no accomplishments. He was an enemy of the Russian state and of the entire Russian people." But does he approve of his murder? No, Strelkov says, because it damages Putin.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-ukraine-war-from-perspective-of-russian-nationalists-a-1023801.html

Now it does look likely that the sanctions will remain in place until the end of the year and Putin has acknowledged that they are hurting which in reality means that they are really biting into the ability of the Russian economy to bounce back.

Couple that with the fact that OPEC is sticking to its guns and it looks like Putins "Novo USSR" gamble is blowing up in his own face.

European Union leaders look likely to keep economic sanctions on Russia in place until a Ukraine ceasefire deal is fully working, after German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday it would be wrong to ease pressure on Moscow prematurely.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/19/us-ukraine-crisis-eu-idUSKBN0MF1FF20150319

AbusesToilets

WakeUp wrote: »

ok ,what are you talking about?. how do you know he believes killing lots of Russians is an absurd proposition or have you just decided that now. and if he truly believes killing lots of Russians is an absurd proposition then why is he talking about it or in your own words "talking about what the US can do to positive effect" so which is it absurd or positive?...killing lots of Russians will have a positive effect...you were saying.....

Your ability to take a simple logical statement and twist it into nonsense remains as impressive as ever.

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

I find it very interesting that so much effort is being expended at the musings of a retired US General when the reality of the whole situation in the Ukraine is effecting so many countries in the local region

Its a little more than musings when a retired US general appears on television and talks so matter of fact about killing lots of Russians. as if ya know yeah thats cool. so "positive effect" might manifest. I mean Christ almighty. as if killing lots of Russians and sending them home in bodybags is going to have anything other than an opposite effect. conclusion. hes a nut. but it isnt just him you have the US joint chief of Staff Dempsey stating Ukraine should be given lethal aid. Strangelove has been coming out with statements on behalf of Nato which have simply left the Germans baffled. the situation in Ukraine has nothing to do Nato or the Americans they need to stay out of it. Nato countries are Nato countries and Nato is entitled to do whatever it wants in them. but Ukraine isnt. the Americans are not going to improve or help the situation. and I think the Germans and French realise this. like you say the situation in Ukraine effecting many countries on different levels and in different ways which is why now more than ever a diplomatic solution and way out of this needs to be found. keep your fingers crossed that the Germans are up to the task and the Minsk agreement holds and works out. because if it doesnt.

Russia's massive military exercises are a clear warning to NATO

While the most recent installment is not the largest exercise Russia has conducted, the areas involved and the forces included seem to have been deliberately chosen to send a warning to NATO; the exercise itself seems to simulate a full-scale confrontation with NATO through the forward deployment of nuclear armed submarines, theater ballistic missiles and strategic bomber aircraft.

Strategic weapon systems, including assets that are part of Russia's nuclear capabilities, have also been deployed to locations near NATO's borders.

According to Russian statements, the snap exercise, which was not announced before it began March 16, will last five days and will involve some 45,000 servicemen, around 3,000 vehicles, more than 40 surface vessels, 15 submarines and 110 aircraft. The more notable systems involved are the Iskander mobile theater ballistic missiles and fighter aircraft that are being deployed to Kaliningrad, Tu-22M3 long-range strategic bombers that are being deployed to Crimea, and ballistic missile submarines that have been sent to sea with protective escorts

The forward deployment of theater ballistic missiles and bomber aircraft are provocative indicators of possible pre-emptive action against NATO and Eastern Europe. Given Russia's military actions in Ukraine, the possibility, however unlikely, that the country could expand operations cannot be dismissed. For that reason, and because Russia has intentionally designed the drills to mimic a potential conflict with Europe, the exercises are cause for alarm in Europe.

By deploying Tu-22M3 bomber aircraft, Russia is also openly invoking the threat of nuclear confrontation. Considering Moscow's statements about a potential deployment of nuclear weapons to Crimea, Russia is clearly connecting the Ukraine crisis and its intentions in the Arctic to the nuclear deterrent it possesses.

Considering the military tensions surrounding the Ukraine crisis and its fragile cease-fire, these exercises are an aggressive signal, particularly since they immediately follow Putin's mysterious disappearance last week. Russia has an interest in flexing its military muscle to remind everyone of the havoc it could wreak and to dissuade anyone from taking radical action in Ukraine. The United States has been careful when it comes to Ukraine, even delaying the deployment of 300 U.S. troops to western Ukraine as part of a training exercise. The United States maintains, however, that this deployment is still an option and could order it as early as April.

http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-massive-military-exercises-are-a-clear-warning-to-nato-2015-3?IR=T

there is no military solution to what is happening in Ukraine. escalation in any form isnt the answer. arming Ukraine or whatever which even the US joint chief of staff is calling for isnt a strategy. the only way out of this is by diplomatic means. or possible chaos and carnage on a scale incomprehensible to the human psyche might ensue. if Ukraine is armed and they go on the rampage in the east to take back territory and the Russians decide right phuck this time for the tanks then thats it. it will have started. and there wont be any going back. and thats why US generals or anyone else in the states or otherwise calling for escalation and more war need to be challenged. and constantly challenged at that.

AbusesToilets

If there's one thing history has shown, words do a great job in stopping tanks.

gandalf

WakeUp wrote: »

Its a little more than musings when a retired US general appears on television and talks so matter of fact about killing lots of Russians.

I'm sorry WakeUp but at the end of the day that Ex-General is ranting on a right wing US "News" Channel that is famous world wide for serving up trash badly disguised as News.

In the REAL world Russia's neighbours are terrified that the rogue state will turn their aggressive tendencies on them like they have on the Ukraine.

Russia is ramping up the threats against the Baltic states on a gradual basis. Like issuing Russia saying wants to prosecute soldiers who quit the Soviet army when Lithuania ceded from the USSR.

So this REAL bullying is effecting REAL people in these countries and you're more worried about a geriatric retired General who the current US authorities have clearly distanced themselves from appearing on a channel I would call "Whack Job News".

You seriously need to re-examine your priorities.

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

I'm sorry WakeUp but at the end of the day that Ex-General is ranting on a right wing US "News" Channel that is famous world wide for serving up trash badly disguised as News.

In the REAL world Russia's neighbours are terrified that the rogue state will turn their aggressive tendencies on them like they have on the Ukraine.

Russia is ramping up the threats against the Baltic states on a gradual basis. Like issuing Russia saying wants to prosecute soldiers who quit the Soviet army when Lithuania ceded from the USSR.

So this REAL bullying is effecting REAL people in these countries and you're more worried about a geriatric retired General who the current US authorities have clearly distanced themselves from appearing on a channel I would call "Whack Job News".

You seriously need to re-examine your priorities.

1.Evidence that Russia is threatening the Baltic states please, statements from NATO, the BBC or the British Ministry of Defence is not evidence as I would put them in the same category as Fox News.
2. Evidence that Russia wants to prosecute Lithuanian deserters from the Soviet Army.
By News from elsewhere!! I do like a good piece of investigative journalism. http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-29111188
"Lithuania says" .... "Russia appears" .... "there is reportedly rising concern"
Theres that word "reportedly" again, how many times have I heard that in the past year?
This "story" disappeared as quickly as yesterday's one about the Dutch "reporter" finding a piece of a BUK missile at the MH17 crash site not the mention the 500 invasions of Ukraine by the Russians!

robindch

WakeUp wrote: »

[...] if the people in East Ukraine voted to break away from Ukraine should they be allowed too?

There is a legal, constitutional process by which any region of Ukraine can secede and if that procedure is followed, or if any other legal, constitutional procedure is voted in, by the appropriate means, in a free, informed vote, then yes, people in East Ukraine can go do what they want to. So long as it's legal. What's not legal is for Russia to invade, murder thousands, propagandize the rest then insert criminals to run the place when their military departs.

WakeUp wrote: »

Its a little more than musings when a retired US general appears on television and talks so matter of fact about killing lots of Russians. as if ya know yeah thats cool.

Your almost-obsessive interest with a retired military guy who didn't really say what you said he says, who has no military power, no political power, no decision-making power of any kind and who appears on a shock-telly station to mouth off, is peculiarly unbalanced, given that the reality of East Ukraine where people are dying at the hands of the Russian Army and the Kremlin's proxies.

robindch

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Theres that word "reportedly" again, how many times have I heard that in the past year?

Plenty of times from responsible Western media outlets who are attempting to do a difficult job well in the presence of a unpleasant propaganda war and many direct threats from Russian-backed separatists in East Ukraine.

You'll have heard it very rarely from state-controlled Russian media outlets though who prefer to dictate "truth" as wished by their controllers in and near that large reddish-brown fortress in central Moscow.

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

1.Evidence that Russia is threatening the Baltic states please, statements from NATO, the BBC or the British Ministry of Defence is not evidence as I would put them in the same category as Fox News.

But Russias behaviour in Georgia and the Ukraine is exhibiting a clear and present danger to it's neighbours. I linked a couple or articles on the previous page about it.

2. Evidence that Russia wants to prosecute Lithuanian deserters from the Soviet Army.
By News from elsewhere!! I do like a good piece of investigative journalism. http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-29111188
"Lithuania says" .... "Russia appears" .... "there is reportedly rising concern"
Theres that word "reportedly" again, how many times have I heard that in the past year?
This "story" disappeared as quickly as yesterday's one about the Dutch "reporter" finding a piece of a BUK missile at the MH17 crash site not the mention the 500 invasions of Ukraine by the Russians!

Here are a couple of additional articles.

THE phone call from the Ministry of Defence came the week that Tomas*, a 45-year-old Lithuanian chauffeur, had been planning to go to Belarus to show his daughters where he performed his military service. Tomas is one of more than 1,500 Lithuanians who walked away from their mandatory stints in the Soviet Army in 1990 and 1991, as the USSR was collapsing. Others (like the young protestors pictured above in February 1990) simply refused to report. The ministry warned Tomas not to travel to Russia or to other countries outside the EU or NATO. Russia, according to Lithuania’s Prosecutor General, had asked for help in investigating another “deserter” over the summer—one of a series of such requests, officials say. The request was denied, but Lithuanian officials worry that other countries may be more cooperative, and they are advising potential targets to stay home.

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21638345-russia-wants-prosecute-former-deserters-army-country-no-longer-exists-going-after

Russia has reopened 25-year-old cases that may lead to criminal charges against young people who refused to serve in the Soviet army in 1990-1991, shows a request for legal assistance received by the Lithuanian Prosecutor General's Office.

....

Russia may bring criminal charges against the citizens of Lithuania who left the Soviet army or refused to serve there after Lithuania declared independence on 11 March 1990.

Some of the young men were abducted and transported to Soviet army units by force, some were sent to jail, a few died during persecution by Soviet army officers, while others returned to the Soviet military units in fears for their own or their family's safety, some escaped the Soviet army by hiding.

According to data provided by the Lithuanian Ministry of National Defence, 1,562 young people refused forced service in the Soviet army after 11 March 1990. Of them, 67 were taken to Soviet military units by force, 20 were sentenced to jail terms, three faced criminal charges and three died.

Another 1,465 were forced to go into hiding, change their place of residence and leave families to avoid forced service or repressions by the Soviet army or the Soviet authorities.

http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/foreign-affairs/russia-reopens-criminal-cases-against-lithuanians-who-refused-to-serve-in-soviet-army.d?id=65776132#ixzz3Cijyz1VU

So why did they resurrect these cases after 25 years. The only reason I can see is to intimidate the Baltic States further. A "we haven't gone away you know" kind of reminder.

Lemming

Also .... looks like forensic analysis of a missile fragment found by Dutch investigated among the wreckage of flight MH17 has revealed the fragment to be from a 9N314 warhead fragment (via 9M317 BUK missile).

bbc.co.uk wrote:

On Thursday, RTL reported that a metal fragment was recovered by Dutch journalist Jeroen Akkermans several months ago from the crash site, near the village of Hrabove in eastern Ukraine.

The broadcaster said it had the shrapnel tested by international forensic and weapons experts, who concluded that it had come from the warhead of a 9M317 Buk missile.

Nicholas de Larrinaga of IHS Jane's told RTL: "From the hour-glass form we can gather all the characteristics of an impact of a 9N314 warhead fragment. This fits perfectly."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31978578


Still early days in the investigation; but it's not looking particularly good for Russia & its proxy force, and I await the mental gymnastics from the Kremlin & its fan-bots with baited breath.

Elmer Blooker

So why did they resurrect these cases after 25 years. The only reason I can see is to intimidate the Baltic States further. A "we haven't gone away you know" kind of reminder.

I see, the Lithuanian ministry of Defence warned "Tomas" .....
Do people actually believe this kind of stuff? The Soviet army ceased to exist, the Soviet Union ceased to exist, Lithuania is independent. Any request from Russia to extradite a Lithuanian citizen for desertion would have as much validity as a piece of toilet paper.
The Economist ... Kiev propagandist Edward Lucas .... ouch!! :eek:

That fiction was yesterday's news Lemming.

robindch

Lemming wrote: »

[...] not looking particularly good for Russia & its proxy force, and I await the mental gymnastics from the Kremlin & its fan-bots with baited breath.

I've been following this conflict closely since I was in Kiev, and on Maidan, last year and saw the violence start.

But I'm not sure that the Kremlin's fan-bots are still the force they once were - the amount and violence of the Kremlin's troll army appears to have abated quite significantly over the last few months - no doubt related to the general cessation of hostilities in East Ukraine and no doubt too helped along by the rouble's collapse and the consequent relative inability of the Kremlin to maintain its levels of online hostility and debate-destruction.

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I see, the Lithuanian ministry of Defence warned "Tomas" .....
Do people actually believe this kind of stuff? The Soviet army ceased to exist, the Soviet Union ceased to exist, Lithuania is independent. Any request from Russia to extradite a Lithuanian citizen for desertion would have as much validity as a piece of toilet paper.
The Economist ... Kiev propagandist Edward Lucas .... ouch!! :eek:
.

Actually yes I do believe it.

I do believe that Putins long term agenda is a "Novo USSR" and that the Russians are using every trick in the "maskirovka" playbook to further their agenda. As you have eloquently put it in Lithuania it does have the legal precedent of a piece of toilet paper but it is designed as a FUD tactic both against the individual and the state.

You seem to be tightly wound in your cocoon of the US is the blame for everything so you can't see beyond that. You have had the opportunity to show us all the "truth" but so far you have failed abysmally.

Lemming

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

That fiction was yesterday's news Lemming.

"Fiction"? And what makes you dismiss said news?

It may have been an article posted yesterday, but it is most assuredly not "yesterdays news" because it is current. Given that nobody mentioned it I thought it prudent to give everyone a reminder that that particular "incident" has not gone away and appears to be heading on its way home to roost for the Russians; showing yet another in a catalogue of lies & deceit by the Kremlin & its proxy forces if upheld.

johnnyskeleton

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

1.Evidence that Russia is threatening the Baltic states please, statements from NATO, the BBC or the British Ministry of Defence is not evidence as I would put them in the same category as Fox News.

Mod: Elmer, if you want to refute the sources please do so. Please don't simply ignore them and demand different sources. To be clear, "evidence" and "conclusive proof" are very different things, and the fact that you may not accept certain sources does not mean that they are not evidence.

This is just a friendly reminder of the rules (specifically that there is a standard of serious debate in the main politics forum), but further comments of this kind may involve moderator action

johnnyskeleton

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Your ability to take a simple logical statement and twist it into nonsense remains as impressive as ever.

MOD - Please note:

1. There is a big difference between saying that someone's post doesn't make sense on the one hand and on the other commenting personally about a poster twisting things into nonsense. The latter is personal abuse.

2. In any event, a higher standard of debate is required. If you disagree with what is said, either respond with logical arguments and reputed sources or, if you think the comment is genuinely nonsense, don't respond at all.

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

I'm sorry WakeUp but at the end of the day that Ex-General is ranting on a right wing US "News" Channel that is famous world wide for serving up trash badly disguised as News.

In the REAL world Russia's neighbours are terrified that the rogue state will turn their aggressive tendencies on them like they have on the Ukraine.

Russia is ramping up the threats against the Baltic states on a gradual basis. Like issuing Russia saying wants to prosecute soldiers who quit the Soviet army when Lithuania ceded from the USSR.

So this REAL bullying is effecting REAL people in these countries and you're more worried about a geriatric retired General who the current US authorities have clearly distanced themselves from appearing on a channel I would call "Whack Job News".

You seriously need to re-examine your priorities.

my priorities are clear and straight forward I would suggest you and a number of others on this thread should get theirs straight too. I dont want to see a war with Russian because European politicians and governments in particular Germany and France are incapable of thinking for themselves. but instead are towing the line of US foreign policy in our backyard by some of the maniacs in Washington. Putin is not going to attack a Nato member thats both ludicrous and nonsense in my opinion. the Americans by involving themselves in Ukraine ( non EU non Nato member ) are going after the Russians on their own border in pursuit of their goal to be undisputed masters of the universe. and the really crazy thing about it is European leaders seem to be in a rush to get behind this and risk the destruction of the continent and the destruction of European people for it. is Europe really ready and prepared for its destruction because of the hubris, arrogance and in this instance insanity of US foreign policy. it would appear Washington is doing its best to torpedo the Minsk agreement if we are to believe the Germans. you feel the need to put "real" in caps. what do you know about realism? tell me about it...if you are going to start taking me to task about being "real" then start being realistic. I see Sticky Nudleman has been sent off to Armenia and other high level US diplomats to Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan members of the CSTO. I wonder what they are up to over there.

robindch wrote: »

There is a legal, constitutional process by which any region of Ukraine can secede and if that procedure is followed, or if any other legal, constitutional procedure is voted in, by the appropriate means, in a free, informed vote, then yes, people in East Ukraine can go do what they want to. So long as it's legal. What's not legal is for Russia to invade, murder thousands, propagandize the rest then insert criminals to run the place when their military departs.Your almost-obsessive interest with a retired military guy who didn't really say what you said he says, who has no military power, no political power, no decision-making power of any kind and who appears on a shock-telly station to mouth off, is peculiarly unbalanced, given that the reality of East Ukraine where people are dying at the hands of the Russian Army and the Kremlin's proxies.

and what about the Ukrainian government shelling and murdering their "own" people in the east? or are they blameless and that should be just discounted as only one side should be held account for the killing? what is your position on Crimea. as far as the Russians are concerned its gone and it aint going back. do you think Ukraine should fight and go to war over Crimea? and if so who should fight their battle. you also never answered my question when I asked you what does the world owe Ukraine?? why has the Ukraine been in your own words "let down by the world"...why?....

robindch

WakeUp wrote: »

and what about the Ukrainian government shelling and murdering their "own" people in the east?

I think that the Russian-backed warlords operating in East Ukraine should stop shelling the Ukrainian army from residential areas.

WakeUp wrote: »

[...] you also never answered my question when I asked you what does the world owe Ukraine?? why has the Ukraine been in your own words "let down by the world"...why?....

I think it's reprehensible that Russia has invaded Ukraine, twice, and caused the deaths of thousands. If Ukraine had been able to call on the help of other nations for its security, then there's at least a sporting chance that Russia might not have invaded, and the dead might not have been killed.

But perhaps you disagree and believe, therefore, that Russia can invade whomever it likes, steal what it wants, and kill whoever stands up to them and their criminal behavior.

robindch

The Beeb reports on the death of the seventh man this year so far with connections to the former president of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovich. This time, it's his son, also called Viktor, who is reported to have died in a sporting accident in Baikal.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32009480

Elsewhere, it's been claimed that a leaked report from the Dutch government places the blame for MH17 on "a Buk-M1-2 surface-to-air missile (SAM) launched from a Russian-owned battery that was most likely manned by a Russian crew". The Russian ambassador in Copenhagen warned the peaceful Danes that if the country decided to join a NATO-led missile defense shield, it would lose "money and security" and their small navy will become targets for Russian nuclear weapons. And the excellent Simon Ostrovsky, kidnapped last year by pro-Russians in East Ukraine, returns there to see how the warlords there are dealing with religious minorities in the region.

WakeUp

robindch wrote: »

I think that the Russian-backed warlords operating in East Ukraine should stop shelling the Ukrainian army from residential areas.

so in your opinion then the Ukrainian military murdering their own people isnt the fault of the Ukrainian military.why doesnt that surprise me. I would hazard a guess myself there are very large numbers of civillians in the east who if they didnt already, now do despise the Ukrainian military for doing just that - murdering them.

I think it's reprehensible that Russia has invaded Ukraine, twice, and caused the deaths of thousands. If Ukraine had been able to call on the help of other nations for its security, then there's at least a sporting chance that Russia might not have invaded, and the dead might not have been killed.

But perhaps you disagree and believe, therefore, that Russia can invade whomever it likes, steal what it wants, and kill whoever stands up to them and their criminal behavior.

I dont agree with what the Russians did in Crimea. Im not so sure the case is as clear cut in the east. the part in bold shows a complete detachment and understanding of the reality Ukraine found and finds itself in even if you are only stating as such in a hypothetical type situation. a detachment shared by Ukrainian men and stateswomen. see the reality is this. Ukraine is not a member of Nato and never will be. nor is it a member of the EU. and its highly unlikely they will ever be a member of that institution either. so Ukraine was never in a position to call on anyone. just like Georgia, a lesson not heeded. currently without US/European and IMF bailouts/support the country would disintegrate in a matter of weeks its being artificially sustained as things stand. You stated a few posts back that you felt Ukraine had been let down by your leaders and youve hit the nail on the head there.

Sovereignty in many ways is relative rightly or wrongly. Its relative to the power structures and equilibrium that exist on the planet. this means you must choose your battles carefully and your "friends" even more so. as soon as the protests broke out and that other guy in power left, boom, the Americans arrive on the scene in a blaze of glory. that was a massive strategic blunder on the part of Ukrainian leaders and in many ways its sealed your fate. it sent out a signal to the Russians of US intentions and the Russians reacted. I dont believe Russia can invade/steal and plunder whomever it likes and Ive never stated as much. unlike you as Ive already told you I dont have a horse in this race Im just calling it as I see it. youve mentioned reality in other posts shall we start being realistic so.

Ukraine is in no position to stand up to Russia not now not ever. unless you believe that others along with Ukraine should fight your war for you? Poroshenko ran a chocolate factory now he convenes war cabinets and dictates "strategy". his ego and lack of brains has gotten a lot of Ukrainian military people killed some of their best units. for example at the airport in Donetsk which made no strategic sense to stay and fight over once the runways and towers were out of action. yet this happened. do you believe other nations should fight and die for Ukraine?? and whats your position on Crimea?? as far as the Russians are concerned its gone forever its part of Russia now. should Ukraine go to war or forcibly attempt to take it back from Russia?..also the situation in the east...should these regions be allowed more autonomy or once again should Ukraine go to war there and forcibly attempt to take back control?? do you believe the west should arm Ukraine?...

gandalf

So again WakeUp a lot of words amounting to the fact that you believe that Russia should be allowed get away with what it wants because it has the biggest guns and uses them.

BoJack Horseman

gandalf wrote: »

So again WakeUp a lot of words amounting to the fact that you believe that Russia should be allowed get away with what it wants because it has the biggest guns and uses them.

He'll claim otherwise of course.

However one doesn't expend hundreds of hours in defence of something you don't passionately endorse.

SamHarris

It's always the same people that believe the "alternative" news sources - at least when it aligns with their politics. If the story is critical of the West or portrays the "right" side as the bad guys, well then there clearly is no need! It boggles my mind how little they seem to look for confirmation bias in their opinions, I'd be embarrassed to so obviously be pulled this way and that by any rumour or Kremlin mouth piece.

I couldn't be bothered finding out, but whats the bets the same people did not believe the "green men" in Crimea pre "referendum" were not Russian soldiers at all but spontaneously spawning self defence forces?

They keep asking for evidence but that is clearly the last thing they want - any evidence is just dismissed as propaganda no matter how compelling. As is the same with every story even remotely politically charged the only thing they want to see is their own view of the world reflected back at them. Anything that interferes with that must be dismissed. Anything short of a full on declaration of war from Russia will not suffice. Even then the line will just shift to justifications.

https://news.vice.com/video/russias-ghost-army-in-ukraine-part-3 I wonder how many more divisions will holiday in a warzone if things heat up again?