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Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.
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Russia untrustworthy? Compared to who? The U.S., the Germans, the Brits? lol. Keen student of a narrative from a biased perspective I would say.
Why does it have to be compared to anyone. Seriously this is playground politics at its most base level. I judge the Russians by their actions alone and not in comparison with any others. Without their meddling an awful lot of people in Eastern Ukraine would still be alive today.
Obviously your narrative is from an even more skewed range of sources
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Why does it have to be compared to anyone. Seriously this is playground politics at its most base level. I judge the Russians by their actions alone and not in comparison with any others. Without their meddling an awful lot of people in Eastern Ukraine would still be alive today.
Obviously your narrative is from an even more skewed range of sources
Well compared to anyone is categorically wrong because there are many regimes who have proved themselves far more untrustworthy since WW2, the USA being first and foremost on that list.
Its easy to judge the Russians on their actions alone, its hardly a moral quandary is it? I don't think you can quite comprehend what you are being told. Yes what Russia is doing is wrong.. its also aggressive, expansionist and goes against everything that we as a moral and ethical society should oppose. I do oppose it as I have said previously and I also condemn it.
However you need to look at the bigger picture when trying to understand hegemonic power and you also need to understand the historical and social context that drives the actions of major powers like the US and Russia. To try and understand what is going on from a George W "Good vs Evil" or "Freedom vs Tyranny" perspective is so naive it borders on absurdity. The reason there are problems in the Ukraine is due to meddling on both sides, mainly the US and Russia and to a lesser extent the EU. Innocent people are dying for political aims of powers who are not in the least concerned with the rights and well being of the average Ukrainian. We as a public are being hypnotized into another war (cold or not) by the same tired old rhetoric from Washington. Does anyone believe that after Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Panama, Grenada, Vietnam, Indonesia, Nicaragua, Korea etc etc that the US have all of a sudden changed their stripes? This isn't a simple case of the Ukrainian people just fighting for the right of self determination and even if it was why would you believe the US would support it? The US have only ever supported democracy in countries where they could be confident that the result would favour them. The US have for the last 6 decades opposed democracy all across the world and have subverted it numerous times to install brutal puppet dictatorships. So forgive me if I'm extremely skeptical of mainstream US biased narrative that we see in the media. I've seen and heard it all before and I know where it ends up.0 -
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I'm a US citizen, was born there, have immediate family there and have lived there at different periods over the years, I'm just a realist when it comes to the West.
You say you are a US citizen but this is a fairly anonymous website so really you could be from anywhere. For all I know you could be Vladimir Putin posting from the KremlinI dont think the US is Satan, I think its a hegemonic power concerned with its own interests like all other hegemonic powers. I dont think its a force for good in the world anymore than the British Empire or the USSR was.
And again have I said anytime that they were a force for good?The US have been trying to stir up the issue in Ukraine for quite some time, this is the outcome
How have they?
Have they directly blackmailed the Ukraine with Energy resources over the years?
Have they propped up a Political elite who have influenced the countries economic decisions in Russias favour? (No Victoria Nuland please, it's crud plus you said "for some time", please demonstrate that timeline of stirring up issues.)
Have the US financed separatists? Have they seeded separatists, have they armed separatists?
Have the US put boots on the ground of the Ukraine against that countries wishes?Your failure to acknowledge that means you are either naive or an apologist.
No it means I am the realist and not a fantasy merchant.I'm not taking sides... both are as bad as each other with innocent people stuck in the middle. Easy enough for you to understand?
I disagree with regard to the present conflict in the Ukraine you are clearly taking sides. The US influence on the situation in the Ukraine is far diminished compared to actual Russian actions sovereign Ukrainian ground.
[ADDED]
As for your $5 billion, it was spread over 20 years
3. The U.S. financed the Maidan protesters.
Pro-Kremlin political analysts and the state-controlled media claimed that the U.S. State Department funneled billions of dollars directly to the anti-Yanukovych opposition movement as part of a larger U.S. agenda to orchestrate regime changes all over the world. Pro-Kremlin journalist Dmitry Kiselyov recently said on Rossia 1 television that this money was transferred via diplomatic mail from Washington to the U.S. Embassy in Kiev and then on to the protesters. But these claims are completely groundless.
Yes, the U.S. State Department spent about $5 billion in Ukraine, but this money — which was spread out over 20 years, long before Maidan — was spent on programs promoting civil society and on charitable programs. U.S. law prohibits the funding of opposition leaders and movements, and there have been no violations of this law in Ukraine.
The objective of these U.S. government programs is as simple as it is self-serving: to spread U.S. “soft power” to other countries so that millions of grant recipients will think positively about the U.S.
The reason for the civil society development programs is also simple: The more democracies there are in the world with strong civil societies and institutional checks and balances, the more stable the world becomes. After all, as the old argument goes, democracies rarely fight each other.
The only problem with these State Department programs is that they are rarely successful in autocracies, where civil society, by definition, poses an existential threat to their “vertical power structures.” Notably, in the 1990s, when the Kremlin was committed to building a civil society, the government welcomed these State Department programs with open arms. Yet under Putin, in 2012, USAID was expelled from the country.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/top-5-myths-about-us-meddling-in-ukraine/500208.html0 -
You say you are a US citizen but this is a fairly anonymous website so really you could be from anywhere. For all I know you could be Vladimir Putin posting from the Kremlin
And again have I said anytime that they were a force for good?
How have they?
Have they directly blackmailed the Ukraine with Energy resources over the years?
Have they propped up a Political elite who have influenced the countries economic decisions in Russias favour? (No Victoria Nuland please, it's crud plus you said "for some time", please demonstrate that timeline of stirring up issues.)
Have the US financed separatists? Have they seeded separatists, have they armed separatists?
Have the US put boots on the ground of the Ukraine against that countries wishes?
No it means I am the realist and not a fantasy merchant.
I disagree with regard to the present conflict in the Ukraine you are clearly taking sides. The US influence on the situation in the Ukraine is far diminished compared to actual Russian actions sovereign Ukrainian ground.
[ADDED]
As for your $5 billion, it was spread over 20 years
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/top-5-myths-about-us-meddling-in-ukraine/500208.html
Look we aren't going to agree, you don't for whatever reason think the U.S. dont have a significant part to play in the conflict. I can only assume why that is as it should be obvious to you if you are a student of history as you say you are. The U.S. have a long history of exactly this type of behaviour. I condemn both sides, you condemn one yet I'm the biased one or an apologist.. Makes sense lol.
As for the 5 billion... Exactly as I said.. The U.S. has been agitating in Ukraine for ages. You see this as a recent occurrence but it has been brewing for many years. You just have to look at the promises made by the U.S. about expanding NATO eastwards and how it has broken those promises. Russia was bound to react no matter how wrong their reaction is. The U.S. wouldn't put up with it on their doorstep and neither will Russia. You can argue the morality of that till cows come home and we will likely agree that it's reprehensible. It is however reality0 -
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