Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Playboy

InTheTrees wrote: »

Russia has invaded its neighbour. The death and destruction has already begun.

Just as Russia said it would if the West forced the issue. Let's try and avoid further tragedy by reaching a compromise. If Putin sets his sights any further than Ukraine, Georgia and Belarus then we can reconsider our strategy. I don't think Putin is stupid enough to attack a NATO country, he knows what the outcome will be. He won't back downover Ukraine though, do you think we should send weapons to Ukraine for an assault? Do you think we should start a bombing campaign? How do you think the West should proceed?

Gatling

Playboy wrote: »

Just as Russia said it would if the West forced the issue. Let's try and avoid further tragedy by reaching a compromise. If Putin sets his sights any further than Ukraine, Georgia and Belarus then we can reconsider our strategy. I don't think Putin is stupid enough to attack a NATO country, he knows what the outcome will be. He won't back downover Ukraine though, do you think we should send weapons to Ukraine for an assault? Do you think we should start a bombing campaign? How do you think the West should proceed?

They should be sent defensive weapons anti tank and armour weapons and better artillery , drones both unarmed and armed and electronic warfare systems .
And an peace keeping force put in places like Maripol.
The west didn't push the issue of Ukraine the people of Ukraine had enough of Russian puppet governments in there county

Playboy

Gatling wrote: »

They should be sent defensive weapons anti tank and armour weapons and better artillery , drones both unarmed and armed and electronic warfare systems .
And an peace keeping force put in places like Maripol.
The west didn't push the issue of Ukraine the people of Ukraine had enough of Russian puppet governments in there county

So in othewords escalate it and invite Russia to invade the rest of the country. I think it's fairly clear that the 'transition of power' was an unconstitutional coup and was backed by the West. I'm not sure why you are denying the West's involvement, any commentators with any knowledge of the region and events will tell you otherwise. What good you think will come from War rather than destabilise the whole region. It's not like the world has enough problems at the moment? It's easy for the U.S. to vote for War when they are thousands of miles away, this is on Europe's doorstep and if it escalates we will feel the ramifications.

InTheTrees

Playboy wrote: »

Let's try and avoid further tragedy by reaching a compromise. If Putin sets his sights any further than Ukraine, Georgia and Belarus then we can reconsider our strategy.

"We"?

I'm confused. You're solidly on putin's side, who is this "we"?

Playboy

InTheTrees wrote: »

"We"?

I'm confused. You're solidly on putin's side, who is this "we"?

Look if you want to continue the same old apologist guff that was warned about by the mods a few posts ago then thats up to you. You obviously dont want to or cant engage in an honest discussion.

johnnyskeleton

K-9 wrote: »

Mod:

Enough of this stuff please. People are entitled to have a different view from the mainstream and the consensus without being called apologists or putinbots.

InTheTrees wrote: »

"We"?

I'm confused. You're solidly on putin's side, who is this "we"?

InTheTrees warned. It was clear he was talking about we as in the people on this thread having this debate. Trying to read into it that he is "solidly on putin's side" is an attempt to attack the post not the man and K-9 put up on thread warning about this last night (that's in addition to the Mod warning in post 1 and in the thread title)

K-9 wrote:

Please don't respond in kind. While comparisons to the US are valid there's a limit to how far they can go on a thread about Russia and the Ukraine.

Playboy wrote: »

Look if you want to continue the same old apologist guff that was warned about by the mods a few posts ago then thats up to you. You obviously dont want to or cant engage in an honest discussion.

Also warned. As K-9 said, you can report this posts but do not respond on the thread.

Lemming

Playboy wrote: »

Just as Russia said it would if the West forced the issue. Let's try and avoid further tragedy by reaching a compromise. If Putin sets his sights any further than Ukraine, Georgia and Belarus then we can reconsider our strategy. I don't think Putin is stupid enough to attack a NATO country, he knows what the outcome will be. He won't back downover Ukraine though, do you think we should send weapons to Ukraine for an assault? Do you think we should start a bombing campaign? How do you think the West should proceed?

My god, it's like reading from Neville Chamberlain's diary. Read back what you're writing Playboy. You're advocating we let Russia do as it pleases and hopefully it wont get any more ambitious and everything will be fine. Except for Ukraine of course.

The world pervaracated over this with Georgia. And now we have Ukraine. What next then? Because by your own criteria we're long past the red line.

In any case, the Ukraine (just like Georgia) will have to live with the "reality" of the situation for a long time to come. The real question now is how does the world deal with Russia's behaviour. Just like you described.

Edit: also; to pick you up on your own "criteria"; you seem to advocate allowing Russia do what it wants with Georgia, Ukraine, and Belarus. Why? Why are those countries less deserving than any other to determine their own direction and fate? Why should another country be allowed to domineer, bully, and invade them for notions of imperialist "glory"?

Playboy

Lemming wrote: »

My god, it's like reading from Neville Chamberlain's diary. Read back what you're writing Playboy. You're advocating we let Russia do as it pleases and hopefully it wont get any more ambitious and everything will be fine. Except for Ukraine of course.

The world pervaracated over this with Georgia. And now we have Ukraine. What next then? Because by your own criteria we're long past the red line.

In any case, the Ukraine (just like Georgia) will have to live with the "reality" of the situation for a long time to come. The real question now is how does the world deal with Russia's behaviour. Just like you described.

Edit: also; to pick you up on your own "criteria"; you seem to advocate allowing Russia do what it wants with Georgia, Ukraine, and Belarus. Why? Why are those countries less deserving than any other to determine their own direction and fate? Why should another country be allowed to domineer, bully, and invade them for notions of imperialist "glory"?

Its nothing like Neville Chamberlain and you would know that if you knew anything about the conflict. Putin is not set on expanding an empire, he is concerned with security and NATO encirclement. Putin would never be able to fight a war with the west and he knows it. The man isnt an idiot. He is however prepared to defend his borders and he sees Ukraine as more or less Russia. You might consider that ludicrous but that is his reality. Also prior to WWII the world wasnt armed with Nuclear weapons. Going to war with Nuclear armed countries is a very very dangerous move especially when dealing with a character like Putin. Before you march in the troops to Ukraine why dont you ask Ukrainians and others who share a border with Russia if they fancy a brutal and bloody war for the next few years that could potentially lead to WW3 and Nuclear War.

Any rational and intelligent individuals should be pressing for a diplomatic solution and nothing else. Acknowledge that Russia has genuine concerns and work from there. No one is saying cut Ukraine adrift but a compromise has to be reached. Its very easy to talk war when you aren't in the War Zone. I dont know if you have seem some of the footage from Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc but it isn't pretty. People seem to think that another World War isnt possible or even Nuclear War but at plenty of points throughout history previous generations thought the same. I for one would rather raise my kids in a world that isnt about to enter into another Cold War with the threat of a Nuclear holocaust hanging over them, I am not too young that I don't remember what that was like.

Lemming

Playboy wrote: »

Its nothing like Neville Chamberlain and you would know that if you knew anything about the conflict. Putin is not set on expanding an empire, he is concerned with security and NATO encirclement. Putin would never be able to fight a war with the west and he knows it. The man isnt an idiot. He is however prepared to defend his borders and he sees Ukraine as more or less Russia. You might consider that ludicrous but that is his reality.

Oh, so because he believes Ukraine to be practically Russian we should let him do what he wants? Again; you're advocating that we pander to a fantastist. I'm not sure which is worse; that or that somehow all these countries should be treated like second class citizens by the rest of the world.

Also, it is looking increasingly and alarmingly similar to the late 1930s thank you very much. You do not believe Putin is trying to annex land and expand Russian borders; he may not even see it like that, but the reality is that is exactly what he is doing; destabilising, invading, and then annexing neighbouring territory. He is expanding Russia in simple terms; the reasons don't matter a jot, only the end result. Just like WW2, the only difference thus far has been the scale of annexed territories and the brazen manner of the third Reich has been papered over with attempts at maskirovka.

Also prior to WWII the world wasnt armed with Nuclear weapons. Going to war with Nuclear armed countries is a very very dangerous move especially when dealing with a character like Putin. Before you march in the troops to Ukraine why dont you ask Ukrainians and others who share a border with Russia if they fancy a brutal and bloody war for the next few years that could potentially lead to WW3 and Nuclear War.

Any rational and intelligent individuals should be pressing for a diplomatic solution and nothing else. Acknowledge that Russia has genuine concerns and work from there. No one is saying cut Ukraine adrift but a compromise has to be reached. Its very easy to talk war when you aren't in the War Zone. I dont know if you have seem some of the footage from Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc but it isn't pretty. People seem to think that another World War isnt possible or even Nuclear War but at plenty of points throughout history previous generations thought the same. I for one would rather raise my kids in a world that isnt about to enter into another Cold War with the threat of a Nuclear holocaust hanging over them, I am not too young that I don't remember what that was like.

Not once have I advocated military action against Russia as being a realistic option, so your strawman can catch fire and burn for all I care. Russia may have had what it perceived to be "genuine concerns", but it has invaded and annexed parts of neighbouring countries; we're way beyond "genuine concerns" here. The world needs to respond in no uncertain terms to Russia's blatant hostitility.

WakeUp

Lemming wrote: »

Oh, so because he believes Ukraine to be practically Russian we should let him do what he wants? Again; you're advocating that we pander to a fantastist. I'm not sure which is worse; that or that somehow all these countries should be treated like second class citizens by the rest of the world.

Also, it is looking increasingly and alarmingly similar to the late 1930s thank you very much. You do not believe Putin is trying to annex land and expand Russian borders; he may not even see it like that, but the reality is that is exactly what he is doing; destabilising, invading, and then annexing neighbouring territory. He is expanding Russia in simple terms; the reasons don't matter a jot, only the end result. Just like WW2, the only difference thus far has been the scale of annexed territories and the brazen manner of the third Reich has been papered over with attempts at maskirovka.

Not once have I advocated military action against Russia as being a realistic option, so your strawman can catch fire and burn for all I care. Russia may have had what it perceived to be "genuine concerns", but it has invaded and annexed parts of neighbouring countries; we're way beyond "genuine concerns" here. The world needs to respond in no uncertain terms to Russia's blatant hostitility.

This idea that Putin is Hitler and Russia Nazi Germany is just nonsense in the extreme. and if you truly believe Putin is Hitler incarnate then there is no room for dialogue as Hitler incarnate cant be spoken too and therefore must be destroyed its the only course of action right?? funny thing about it is the only government since nazi Germany to willfully unleash nazi battalions against a population isnt Russia but Ukraine. funny that. so what exactly are you advocating? if not a diplomatic solution along the lines of Minsk...what do you suggest?...

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

funny thing about it is the only government since nazi Germany to willfully unleash nazi battalions against a population isnt Russia but Ukraine. funny that. so what exactly are you advocating? if not a diplomatic solution along the lines of Minsk...what do you suggest?...

You mean Ukrainians defending there country from Russian forces .
They maybe right , left , center , gay , straight or any other groups .
But there Ukrainians defending there country .

Not many seem to mention Serbs , Chechens and other foreign forces fighting alongside the russians and there rebels.

gandalf

WakeUp wrote: »

This idea that Putin is Hitler and Russia Nazi Germany is just nonsense in the extreme. and if you truly believe Putin is Hitler incarnate then there is no room for dialogue as Hitler incarnate cant be spoken too and therefore must be destroyed its the only course of action right?? funny thing about it is the only government since nazi Germany to willfully unleash nazi battalions against a population isnt Russia but Ukraine. funny that. so what exactly are you advocating? if not a diplomatic solution along the lines of Minsk...what do you suggest?...

My god this actually sounds like a press release prepared by the Kremlin.

No one has said that there are no far right Ukrainians fighting for their country. I would prefer if the far right didn't exist in the Ukraine and across Eastern Europe but it does.

So is the far right only represented by the Ukrainians in this conflict then Wakeup? You already know the answer. There are Neo-Nazis from Russia fighting with the "Rebels" as well.

Seriously you are aware that Russia over the years has had a very credible Far Right problem of its own?

When people like me compare the Russian actions to those of Nazi Germany in 1938 and 1939 it is because the tactics mirror the ones used back then by the Germans almost to the letter.

Unfortunately the fragmented reaction of Europe and the US is playing right into the hands of the aggressive regime in Moscow and imho continued appeasement like this will create a far more dangerous and costly situation for us all a year or two down the line.

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

My god this actually sounds like a press release prepared by the Kremlin.

No one has said that there are no far right Ukrainians fighting for their country. I would prefer if the far right didn't exist in the Ukraine and across Eastern Europe but it does.

So is the far right only represented by the Ukrainians in this conflict then Wakeup? You already know the answer. There are Neo-Nazis from Russia fighting with the "Rebels" as well.

Seriously you are aware that Russia over the years has had a very credible Far Right problem of its own?

When people like me compare the Russian actions to those of Nazi Germany in 1938 and 1939 it is because the tactics mirror the ones used back then by the Germans almost to the letter.

Unfortunately the fragmented reaction of Europe and the US is playing right into the hands of the aggressive regime in Moscow and imho continued appeasement like this will create a far more dangerous and costly situation for us all a year or two down the line.

my god what are you talking about something something something the kremlin. and where have I said there are no far right people involved with the rebels?? but you know if people like yourself and lemming are going to compare Russia to nazi Germany because of "tactics" I mean that is a complete and utter nonsensnical comparison it really is. this putin is hitler incarnate psychosis emanating from across the Atlantic its just bizzare completely detached from reality. even more so when you consider its the Ukrainian government being the only government since the nazis to willfully unleash nazi battalions against their own people. bizzare. fragmented reaction? yeah you could say that alright the Americans are pushing us toward war and the Germans and French are doing their best to push back against that. "appeasement" what do you suggest is the answer to what has happened??..there is no military solution to this so what do you suggest?...

Lemming

WakeUp wrote: »

my god what are you talking about something something something the kremlin. and where have I said there are no far right people involved with the rebels?? but you know if people like yourself and lemming are going to compare Russia to nazi Germany because of "tactics" I mean that is a complete and utter nonsensnical comparison it really is. this putin is hitler incarnate psychosis emanating from across the Atlantic its just bizzare completely detached from reality. even more so when you consider its the Ukrainian government being the only government since the nazis to willfully unleash nazi battalions against their own people. bizzare. fragmented reaction? yeah you could say that alright the Americans are pushing us toward war and the Germans and French are doing their best to push back against that. "appeasement" what do you suggest is the answer to what has happened??..there is no military solution to this so what do you suggest?...

Never once said Putin was Hitler incarnate, or tried to suggest he was trying to be Hitler. In fact, I haven't mentioned Hitler until this post. But you have. Several times tellingly enough ...

The only person showing any sort of psychosis for the nazis here is yourself. You sre very keen to try and tie Hitler into the argument. Strawman and all that.

WakeUp

Lemming wrote: »

Never once said Putin was Hitler incarnate, or tried to suggest he was trying to be Hitler. In fact, I haven't mentioned Hitler until this post. But you have. Several times tellingly enough ...

The only person showing any sort of psychosis for the nazis here is yourself. You sre very keen to try and tie Hitler into the argument. Strawman and all that.

so if I take this post apart and show you that youre talking sh1te are you going to run off again and not bother engaging me? like you did when I did likewise to your comments about the US killing Russians to bring about "positive effect" or something along those lines. or wait was it "absurd" that you actually meant. first it was "positive effect" then it was "absurd" you never did get back to me about that...you were saying....

gandalf

WakeUp the Americans aren't pushing us towards war, Vladimir Putins Russia is!

It appears that your answer to this threat is to let them do what they want.

Do you honestly think this will stop them?

Do you honestly think that letting them away with invasion of another sovereign country will make Europe safer?

Imho opinion it makes Europe a far more dangerous place because the Russians will then feel that these tactics do work and can be deployed again.

What do I feel Europe should do to counter this.

Shorter term the main weapon should always be fiscal against Putin and his backers. Increase Sanctions. Provide the Ukrainians with defensive weapons so if the Russians sorry "Rebels" decide to push further into sovereign Ukrainian territory the cost will be higher.

Longer term ensure that Europe including outlying countries can source energy from other providers and eventually cut this "energy weapon" and leverage from the Russian Arsenal.

Support the Ukraine fully to enhance and upgrade it's economy to take it away from the influence of Russia.

Now I have laid out what I believe should be done can you please show me what you would recommend?

Lemming

WakeUp wrote: »

so if I take this post apart and show you that youre talking sh1te are you going to run off again and not bother engaging me? like you did when I did likewise to your comments about the US killing Russians to bring about "positive effect" or something along those lines. or wait was it "absurd" that you actually meant. first it was "positive effect" then it was "absurd" you never did get back to me about that...you were saying....

No, it's because I actually have you on my ignore list. I only posted because I saw your quote in Gandalf's post, otherwise I wouldn't have given your "well considered, deep thinking, and critical" commentary the effort of thinking about, never mind a reply.

Lemming

gandalf wrote: »

Imho opinion it makes Europe a far more dangerous place because the Russians will then feel that these tactics do work and can be deployed again.

It should be pointed out that the situation in Eastern Ukraine, and the Crimea, before it, is "can be deployed again" in action. The situation is the direct result of the Georgian conflict, with the tactics used in Georgia being used again because the Russians saw those tactics work in Georgia with no fallout from the international community.

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

WakeUp the Americans aren't pushing us towards war, Vladimir Putins Russia is!

It appears that your answer to this threat is to let them do what they want.

Do you honestly think this will stop them?

Do you honestly think that letting them away with invasion of another sovereign country will make Europe safer?

Imho opinion it makes Europe a far more dangerous place because the Russians will then feel that these tactics do work and can be deployed again.

What do I feel Europe should do to counter this.

Shorter term the main weapon should always be fiscal against Putin and his backers. Increase Sanctions. Provide the Ukrainians with defensive weapons so if the Russians sorry "Rebels" decide to push further into sovereign Ukrainian territory the cost will be higher.

Longer term ensure that Europe including outlying countries can source energy from other providers and eventually cut this "energy weapon" and leverage from the Russian Arsenal.

Support the Ukraine fully to enhance and upgrade it's economy to take it away from the influence of Russia.

Now I have laid out what I believe should be done can you please show me what you would recommend?

I support German efforts and the Minsk agreement to find a diplomatic out of this which Ive stated many times. Ukraine without Crimea and the Donbass region is pretty much useless for all intents and purposes they are phucked. a federal structure with the country remaining "unified" minus Crimea I believe is the best course of action for all concerned. yeah we can try source energy from somewhere else but thats easier said than done show me a plan thats both logistically and economically viable and Im all for it. providing Ukraine with weapons is going to make the situation worse and result in more people dead.

WakeUp

Lemming wrote: »

No, it's because I actually have you on my ignore list. I only posted because I saw your quote in Gandalf's post, otherwise I wouldn't have given your "well considered, deep thinking, and critical" commentary the effort of thinking about, never mind a reply.

youve put me on your ignore list because with all due respect youre talking sh1te. and when I press you on it and then point it out to you, you run off. or put me on your "ignore" list. what do you know about critical thinking. I would hazard a guess not that much.

gandalf

WakeUp wrote: »

I support German efforts and the Minsk agreement to find a diplomatic out of this which Ive stated many times. Ukraine without Crimea and the Donbass region is pretty much useless for all intents and purposes they are phucked. a federal structure with the country remaining "unified" minus Crimea I believe is the best course of action for all concerned. yeah we can try source energy from somewhere else but thats easier said than done show me a plan thats both logistically and economically viable and Im all for it. providing Ukraine with weapons is going to make the situation worse and result in more people dead.

So basically reward Russia for its actions by dismembering and destablishing its neighbour. Exactly what it wanted.

What happens then when Russia continues supporting the rebels and they keep nibbling away at the Ukraine?

Or if the Ukraine makes a political or economic decision that Russia doesn't agree with that "provokes" a reaction from the militias in the occupied zones?

Or the Russians recreate the whole playbook in another one of these "disputed" territories?

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

So basically reward Russia for its actions by dismembering and destablishing its neighbour. Exactly what it wanted.

What happens then when Russia continues supporting the rebels and they keep nibbling away at the Ukraine?

Or if the Ukraine makes a political or economic decision that Russia doesn't agree with that "provokes" a reaction from the militias in the occupied zones?

Or the Russians recreate the whole playbook in another one of these "disputed" territories?

what do you mean reward Russia? what are you talking about....

gandalf

WakeUp wrote: »

what do you mean reward Russia? what are you talking about....

It's very easy to grasp. Russia's goal besides the land grab of Crimea was to destablish the Ukraine and ensure they wouldn't initially sign the EU trade agreement and longer term that they wouldn't become a member of the EU.

That's what I mean by reward. Mission accomplished for Moscow, wrapped up and delivered to their door (probably as projected).

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

It's very easy to grasp. Russia's goal besides the land grab of Crimea was to destablish the Ukraine and ensure they wouldn't initially sign the EU trade agreement and longer term that they wouldn't become a member of the EU.

That's what I mean by reward. Mission accomplished for Moscow, wrapped up and delivered to their door (probably as projected).

ok so...and you think that by further sanctioning Russia in an attempt to bully them or arming Ukrainians you believe this is going to have a positive effect and be somehow beneficial to Ukraine surviving?...they cant bully or outfight Russia they have to try out think them. I can understand what you are getting at here even though the phrase you used - reward - is slightly odd. the situation is what it is so a way must be found out of it that doesnt involve the entire continent burning and perhaps beyond. that isnt rewarding anyone its just common sense. the Ukrainians getting into bed with the Americans and attempting the same with Nato that sh1t has a price unfortunately for them rightly or wrongly.

gandalf

WakeUp wrote: »

ok so...and you think that by further sanctioning Russia in an attempt to bully them or arming Ukrainians you believe this is going to have a positive effect and be somehow beneficial to Ukraine surviving?...they cant bully or outfight Russia they have to try out think them. I can understand what you are getting at here even though the phrase you used - reward - is slightly odd. the situation is what it is so a way must be found out of it that doesnt involve the entire continent burning and perhaps beyond. that isnt rewarding anyone its just common sense. the Ukrainians getting into bed with the Americans and attempting the same with Nato that sh1t has a price unfortunately for them rightly or wrongly.

Sorry but I disagree with you totally here. Doing nothing and burying your head in the sand pretending that all is great is rewarding the Russians for their unacceptable actions against the Ukraine. Behaving like this will guarantee that this behaviour will occur again.

Yes hitting a state financially can change their behaviour and can help to resolve the situation.

Yes giving a victim state the means to defend itself more robustly will make an aggressor nation think twice before they push excision of more Ukrainian territory to create their artificial cancer statelet inside the Ukraines borders .

What you call common sense is in my opinion appeasement.

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

Sorry but I disagree with you totally here. Doing nothing and burying your head in the sand pretending that all is great is rewarding the Russians for their unacceptable actions against the Ukraine. Behaving like this will guarantee that this behaviour will occur again.

Yes hitting a state financially can change their behaviour and can help to resolve the situation.

Yes giving a victim state the means to defend itself more robustly will make an aggressor nation think twice before they push excision of more Ukrainian territory to create their artificial cancer statelet inside the Ukraines borders .

What you call common sense is in my opinion appeasement.

Gandalf weve done this before we should probably just agree to disagree because I totally disagree with you. the leadership in Kiev not only are they not up to much upstairs on top of that they are hotheaded and a bunch of strategic illiterates. I mean who decides its a good idea to send off nazi battalions killing Russians to give but one example. arm Ukraine and they are dumb enough to decide to go on a rampage against the rebels/separatists/Russians whatever and the outcome will be this - the Russians will fully roll in rolling all the way to Kiev and annihilate them. nobody is burying their head in the sand and believing things are great quite the opposite actually.

Playboy

WakeUp wrote: »

what do you mean reward Russia? what are you talking about....

People for some reason are in denial about the reality in Belarus, Ukraine and Georgia. They are effectively Russian satellite states and Russia wants to keep it that way. The Russians consider them key strategic interests and a security priority.

Every major world power thinks of it's neighbors in these terms. The morality is neither here nor there, that is the reality. The US and China also consider the countries around them in the same way and to an extent seek to exert influence where they can. We can condemn all World Powers for this behavior but it isn't going to change their behaviors. The US and Europe are seeking to bring Russian strategic interests into the Western sphere of influence. This is the only reason that this crisis is occurring.

If the reverse happened and Russia and China were trying to influence Mexico or some Caribbean states into joining a Russian/Chinese military alliance then the US would react in a similar manner. In fact Cuba was a very similar situation where the US armed and funded rebel groups and threatened invasion at the time of the missile crisis. We can see that the US hasn't changed its attitude in this regard given how long sanctions have remained in place against Cuba.

I dont agree with what Putin is doing and I didnt agree with what Eisenhower and Kennedy did in Cuba. That doesnt mean I dont think what Russia did in Cuba wasnt an aggressive move just because they werent the ones who invaded. The US might not be invading Ukraine but what they are doing is aggressive. Putin doesnt give a toss about Finland, Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia and he isnt going to invade NATO aligned members of the EU because he knows it will mean war.

The West can use sanctions against Putin to try and destabilize his government and turn his people against him but really all we would be doing is antagonizing a very powerful neighbor who will respond in kind. We need to try and bring Russia back into the fold, you cant have world peace, prosperity and security if Russia aren't a party to it.

Playboy

gandalf wrote: »

Yes hitting a state financially can change their behaviour and can help to resolve the situation.

Like in Iran and Cuba?

johnnyskeleton

Lemming wrote: »

Never once said Putin was Hitler incarnate, or tried to suggest he was trying to be Hitler. In fact, I haven't mentioned Hitler until this post. But you have. Several times tellingly enough ...

The only person showing any sort of psychosis for the nazis here is yourself. You sre very keen to try and tie Hitler into the argument. Strawman and all that.

WakeUp wrote: »

so if I take this post apart and show you that youre talking sh1te are you going to run off again and not bother engaging me? like you did when I did likewise to your comments about the US killing Russians to bring about "positive effect" or something along those lines. or wait was it "absurd" that you actually meant. first it was "positive effect" then it was "absurd" you never did get back to me about that...you were saying....

WakeUp wrote: »

youve put me on your ignore list because with all due respect youre talking sh1te. and when I press you on it and then point it out to you, you run off. or put me on your "ignore" list. what do you know about critical thinking. I would hazard a guess not that much.

Lemming wrote: »

No, it's because I actually have you on my ignore list. I only posted because I saw your quote in Gandalf's post, otherwise I wouldn't have given your "well considered, deep thinking, and critical" commentary the effort of thinking about, never mind a reply.

That's enough you two. Lemming warned for straying off topic. WakeUp for taking it a step further into the realm of personal abuse gets an infraction. But both of you need to play nice from now on or it will be a ban.

gandalf

WakeUp wrote: »

Gandalf weve done this before we should probably just agree to disagree because I totally disagree with you. the leadership in Kiev not only are they not up to much upstairs on top of that they are hotheaded and a bunch of strategic illiterates. I mean who decides its a good idea to send off nazi battalions killing Russians to give but one example. arm Ukraine and they are dumb enough to decide to go on a rampage against the rebels/separatists/Russians whatever and the outcome will be this - the Russians will fully roll in rolling all the way to Kiev and annihilate them. nobody is burying their head in the sand and believing things are great quite the opposite actually.

Again using the same language as a Kremlin press release WakeUp. I am actually surprised at you because I have found throughout this whole engagement that you have swayed away from that type of language and normally are far more elegant with your points.

I would counter who would have though that the modern Russia from a few years ago would have gotten involved in a grubby land grab reminiscent of events in Europe from over 75 years ago. I certainly didn't. Whilst I didn't like Putin I saw that Russia was making some progress under him. Now he has thrown all that progress away and is making the country a pariah in a very short time frame. What the hell did he expect to achieve from these actions. Maybe the fact that nothing happened to them from the Georgia "adventure" emboldened them.

Leaving the US out of this as a European and based on our history we have to respond to this kind of aggressive nationalism. We have seen the outcome when we haven't stood up to it.

You and I do disagree fundamentally on how we do that. You still believe that a softly softly approach is the one to be taken, I think that at this stage it would be as useful as a chocolate teapot. I have already laid out how I would deal with this situation in an earlier post today so I won't go over them again.