Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

realweirdo

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Revelations starting to emerge that the Kiev snipers, who fired on protestors, were hired by the Maidan leaders themselves as a false flag operation.

The information emerged due to the leaking of a telephone conversation between the EU's Foreign Affairs representative, Catherine Ashton, and Estonia’s Foreign Minister.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8&t=8m55s

Never let a little matter like the truth get in the way of a good conspiracy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10677370/Ukraine-Russia-crisis-live.html

Olga Bogomolets said she had not told Mr Paet that policemen and protesters had been killed in the same manner.

"Myself I saw only protesters. I do not know the type of wounds suffered by military people," she told The Telegraph. "I have no access to those people."

But she said she had asked for a full forensic criminal investigation into the deaths that occurred in the Maidan. "No one who just sees the wounds when treating the victims can make a determination about the type of weapons. I hope international experts and Ukrainian investigators will make a determination of what type of weapons, who was involved in the killings and how it was done. I have no data to prove anything.

"I was a doctor helping to save people on the square. There were 15 people killed on the first day by snipers. They were shot directly to the heart, brain and arteries. There were more than 40 the next day, 12 of them died in my arms.

"Our nation has to ask the question who were the killers, who asked them to come to Ukraine. We need good answers on the basis of expertise."
Mr Paet's assertion that an opposition figure was behind the Maidan massacre was not one she could share.
"I think you can only say something like this on the basis of fact," she said. "Its not correct and its not good to do this. It should be based on fact."

Jonny7

constance tench wrote: »

Why not look at the footage, instead of speculating.

I watched it, hence my response to it

Either the protesters are all deaf, or the "conspiracy shooters" must be using a silenced rifle timed with the real shots coming from in front of the protesters

Jonny7

FTA69 wrote: »

Oh right, in what other country do neo-Nazis have four ministries and are in charge of defense and security? Your comparison is totally invalid because in nearly every other country, the far right are powerless fringes. This so-called democratic revolution in Ukraine however, has simply installed a new bunch of oligarchs and propelled fascists into government.

Your whataboutery and distraction doesn't change that fact unfortunately.

Sorry has the country had it's election, did I miss something here?

robindch

Aidric wrote: »

As an aside I saw that Tymoshenko and new Ukranian PM Arseniy Yatsenyuk are in Dublin tomorrow for an EPP congress.

There's a pro-Ukraine rally outside the convention center at 2pm, for anybody interested:

https://www.facebook.com/events/1471242083089173/

bobcoffee

well Real, I'll like to put some other things forward to you.

"Never let a little matter like the truth get in the way of a good conspiracy."
You do realise that the same corrupt Government is there, that one Leader has been removed, during this removal people switched sides.
So its not as "tinfoil hat" as you might think.

"Our nation has to ask the question who were the killers, who asked them to come to Ukraine"
While I'm not trying to defend the actions of these monsters, there is little evidence to say that these guys were from outside Ukraine.

While I understand that this person witnessed some horrible stuff, taking that line as fact is also in the realm of conspiracy.

Lots of investigations are needed.

Then the "The UN special envoy" used Ukraine Soldiers to get into Crimera, that is just trying to stir the pot.
I'm finding that one quite sad, while they could have easily used the Security Forces of Crimera (not the roaming gangs) but official police or something along those lines.
Remember there is no "war" going on atm, no need for that kind of move by UN and also they would have well known the outcome.
While not saying it is right just pointing out no way it would have happened any other way.

FTA69

Jonny7 wrote: »

Sorry has the country had it's election, did I miss something here?

No I'm talking about the government who are now in power. You know, the people who didn't bother having an election at all and just seized power.

bobcoffee

I logged on to make this post, I feel like I really want to point something out that is confusing me.

I have seen many invasions from the news in my lifetime, with lots of blood and cover ups, with little care for human rights.
This is the part that is confusing me.
Has Putin showed the world how to "do your business", get your goals that you want and not have to fire a bullet to do so?
Really think about your answer, not just quoting one line to make your point and put the whole thing out of context.
Look at other wars, really mean this, when has their been an invasion like this before?

While Ukraine deserves a lot more respect from all sides, being forced to sign deals to get "AID" or (finally admitting it) "military AID".
This kind of "help" normally cripples the countries for years to come.
It is why people in Ireland have campaigned to get our government to wipe off third world debt.

robindch

bobcoffee wrote: »

[...] being forced to sign deals to get "AID" or (finally admitting it) "military AID".

You mean, like the $15 billion that Putin promised or the questionable letter that was produced in the UN the other day which purported to show Yanokovich asking the Russians to come in and give a hand out.

Presumably your dislike of economic pressure and military incursions only applies when it's done by people you don't like.

bobcoffee

"Really think about your answer, not just quoting one line to make your point and put the whole thing out of context."


"While Ukraine deserves a lot more respect from all sides, being forced to sign deals to get "AID" or (finally admitting it) "military AID"."


seriously you couldn't pause for a minute, no invasion is clearly a better choice but when a "bigger country" invades has Putin put the rest to shame.

Jonny7

FTA69 wrote: »

No I'm talking about the government who are now in power. You know, the people who didn't bother having an election at all and just seized power.

It's an interim government, no vote was held because the country just had a revolution

The elections are scheduled for May

Alarmists and the Russian government are trying to project that fascists have "seized power in a coup".

I'd be surprised if Svoboda get more than 8% of the vote

FTA69

Jonny7 wrote: »

It's an interim government, no vote was held because the country just had a revolution

The elections are scheduled for May

Alarmists and the Russian government are trying to project that fascists have "seized power in a coup".

I'd be surprised if Svoboda get more than 8% of the vote

Well, a coup of sorts has taken place and Svoboda are now in 4 ministries, including the ministry of defense. The Right Sector also hold influence in the National Security Council. It's gas the way you think bringing fascists into state power will somehow result in them being neutralised. All signs are now pointing to them gaining political traction and they are definitely on the rise. History has shown us time and time again that this is a very bad thing indeed.

Furthermore, the interim government now has zero credibility considering they have no qualms about sharing power with neo-Nazis. (Either that or they were too weak to exclude them which raises even more worrying questions.)

bobcoffee

"From today the National Convention Centre hosts the right-wing EPP (European People’s Party) piss-up with Daenerys Targaryen and her three dragons flying in fresh from her release from the Ukraine’s jail (massive corruption) to show Enda and the lads how it’s really done. The eastern half of the city centre is in lockdown already."

from Rabble


criminals unite... lolz

josip

bobcoffee wrote: »

I logged on to make this post, I feel like I really want to point something out that is confusing me.

I have seen many invasions from the news in my lifetime, with lots of blood and cover ups, with little care for human rights.
This is the part that is confusing me.
Has Putin showed the world how to "do your business", get your goals that you want and not have to fire a bullet to do so?
Really think about your answer, not just quoting one line to make your point and put the whole thing out of context.
Look at other wars, really mean this, when has their been an invasion like this before?

While Ukraine deserves a lot more respect from all sides, being forced to sign deals to get "AID" or (finally admitting it) "military AID".
This kind of "help" normally cripples the countries for years to come.
It is why people in Ireland have campaigned to get our government to wipe off third world debt.

Bob, I'm struggling to think of comparable situations that I can compare this one to.
I have to exclude a lot of previous ones due to proximity and logistics.
Also, already having a military base in the country of invasion would eliminate most candidate comparisons.
Can you suggest ones that you think are comparable that weren't handled properly?

Jonny7

FTA69 wrote: »

Well, a coup of sorts has taken place and Svoboda are now in 4 ministries, including the ministry of defense. The Right Sector also hold influence in the National Security Council. It's gas the way you think bringing fascists into state power will somehow result in them being neutralised. All signs are now pointing to them gaining political traction and they are definitely on the rise. History has shown us time and time again that this is a very bad thing indeed.

I don't think anything of the sort

Some of the protesters were hardliners, therefore they got temporary positions in the interim government

Your choice of words "neo-nazis" "gang" "coup" is very telling

Furthermore, the interim government now has zero credibility considering they have no qualms about sharing power with neo-Nazis. (Either that or they were too weak to exclude them which raises even more worrying questions.)

Arseniy Yatsenyuk is in Brussels right now meeting with EU heads of state and ministers and is recognised as Ukraine's interim prime minister

bobcoffee

Interesting Josip.
like I said it is confusing me, suppose if a base is already there and you have already got certain amount of troops.. think 20k.. not sure.
It should still be classed as an invasion?
If not then what is it classed as.

There are an amazing amount of NATO/US to China bases and such around the world in foreign countries, don't like "war p0rn" so don't follow things to the T.
I'm sure there is one case out three.
Even so does it still change the notion of it not being an invasion if there is a base/bases.

FTA69

Jonny7 wrote: »

Some of the protesters were hardliners, therefore they got temporary positions in the interim government

And if the fascists were only a small minority as you are saying, why have they been given any sort of state power? If they represent only a lunatic fringe, why didn't Tymoshenko's crowd and Klitschko tell them to p*ss off?

Your choice of words "neo-nazis" "gang" "coup" is very telling

The Right Sector are a paramilitary who patrol in military fatigues, armed to the teeth and extolling the virtues of a "clean" Ukraine. You saw the video earlier. They recently adorned their office with a portrait of Adolf Hitler. Svaboda are classic fascists and ultra-nationalists whose hero is a Nazi collaborator; they also have a paramilitary called Combat 14.

Am I wrong in describing the above as fascists or neo-Nazis? What else would you call a paramilitary who uses Nazi iconography?

Arseniy Yatsenyuk is in Brussels right now meeting with EU heads of state and ministers and is recognised as Ukraine's interim prime minister

I don't think anyone doubts his position, and after all; these protests were backed to the hilt by the US and figures within the EU. Personally I can't get too excited about a government whose ministers believe in a Jewish conspiracy though.

For Reals

I've been watching this closely and with all the different aspects, from the Russian speakers with a possible tie to Russia, to those wanting stronger ties to the west, those seeking democratic autonomy etc.
I can't get past its a simple case of the Ukraine being invaded by a dictator regardless of how its dressed up on the political stage. Like the Russian leadership, Putin wants to also keep an empire intact.
Any issues internally in the Ukraine are for the Ukrainians to address. It seemed on the road to fresh elections prior to the invasion.

renegademaster

For Reals wrote: »

I've been watching this closely and with all the different aspects, from the Russian speakers with a possible tie to Russia, to those wanting stronger ties to the west, those seeking democratic autonomy etc.
I can't get past its a simple case of the Ukraine being invaded by a dictator regardless of how its dressed up on the political stage. Like the Russian leadership, Putin wants to also keep an empire intact.
Any issues internally in the Ukraine are for the Ukrainians to address. It seemed on the road to fresh elections prior to the invasion.

impressions were as far as the yanks were prepared to allow the peace deal go before doing what they're experts at, creating a civil war and installing their pawns into power after!!

Jonny7

FTA69 wrote: »

And if the fascists were only a small minority as you are saying, why have they been given any sort of state power? If they represent only a lunatic fringe, why didn't Tymoshenko's crowd and Klitschko tell them to p*ss off?

Because they had 33 parliamentary seats out of 450

Not entirely significant or not entirely insignificant

The Right Sector are a paramilitary who patrol in military fatigues, armed to the teeth and extolling the virtues of a "clean" Ukraine. You saw the video earlier. They recently adorned their office with a portrait of Adolf Hitler. Svaboda are classic fascists and ultra-nationalists whose hero is a Nazi collaborator; they also have a paramilitary called Combat 14.

You are confusing far right thugs and groups like C14 - with Parliamentary members

A bit like saying Sinn Fein have won some support, they are IRA terrorists

Am I wrong in describing the above as fascists or neo-Nazis? What else would you call a paramilitary who uses Nazi iconography?

If you are describing a neo-nazi as a neo-nazi you are completely correct. If you are prescribing it as a blanket term, with a "guilt by association" then you are incorrect

I don't think anyone doubts his position, and after all; these protests were backed to the hilt by the US and figures within the EU. Personally I can't get too excited about a government whose ministers believe in a Jewish conspiracy though.

Tarring with the brush

robindch

For Reals wrote: »

I've been watching this closely and with all the different aspects, from the Russian speakers with a possible tie to Russia, to those wanting stronger ties to the west, those seeking democratic autonomy etc. I can't get past its a simple case of the Ukraine being invaded by a dictator regardless of how its dressed up on the political stage. Like the Russian leadership, Putin wants to also keep an empire intact. Any issues internally in the Ukraine are for the Ukrainians to address. It seemed on the road to fresh elections prior to the invasion.

In before some pro-Russian-government poster says that the USA invaded Iraq so it doesn't matter that Russia invaded Crimea. Which it didn't do anyway since the lads on the ground aren't Russian. Well, they aren't Russian Army. Even if they're recorded on video as saying they are. And anyway, didn't the US invade Iraq?

It's all a bit complicated if one believe what's said by Putin, the Russian army, the completely local, autonomous self-defence units which are wearing Russian army uniforms, carrying Russian guns and driving around in Russian army vehicles which the Russian minister of defence says he has no clue of how they got hold of.

Jonny7

Interpol has received request for arrest warrant for Yanukovych, looks like he may have to holiday in Russia for now on

renegademaster

Jonny7 wrote: »

Interpol has received request for arrest warrant for Yanukovych, looks like he may have to holiday in Russia for now on

they'll probably put him up in the same (safe from americans) location as Ed Snowden

karma_

robindch wrote: »

In before some pro-Russian-government poster says that the USA invaded Iraq so it doesn't matter that Russia invaded Crimea. Which it didn't do anyway since the lads on the ground aren't Russian. Well, they aren't Russian Army. Even if they're recorded on video as saying they are. And anyway, didn't the US invade Iraq?

It's all a bit complicated if one believe what's said by Putin, the Russian army, the completely local, autonomous self-defence units which are wearing Russian army uniforms, carrying Russian guns and driving around in Russian army vehicles which the Russian minister of defence says he has no clue of how they got hold of.

Just because people think its probably wiser to not start marching armies to the Ukranian border and demand that Russia leave or else it's war does not make one pro-russian and that's a very sly argument for anyone to use and one that's used fairly often round these parts.

Honestly some of the idiocy I've seen that the EU should build up it's military and go on the march is next to insanity to be perfectly fair.

Is Russia in the wrong? Undoubtedly but the context surrounding that region is extremely complex historically and ethnically and to be honest it's not worth starting a war over, nor is it worth starting a new cold war over because in itself that is idiocy too.

Russia wants that port and there was no way it was ever going to be left and that is just plain fact, it was always going to muscle in the same way the US uses it's muscles in it's own interests rightly or wrongly.

The best thing to finish this matter is just get that referendum out of the way and if those in Crimea want to join Russia then Ukraine should allow that because that's the best and fairest result for everyone.

bobcoffee

robindch wrote: »

In before some pro-Russian-government poster says that the USA invaded Iraq so it doesn't matter that Russia invaded Crimea.

When will you stop taking what people say out of context to make a point.
If you had one, then doing so would just be pointless???
I'm lost on who in this thread wants and is happy about the invasion.

So pointing out the flaws in USA accusing anyone of invading any other country is being pro Russian?
Pointing out the lack of jets, deaths and torture from this "invasion" is being pro Russian?

You have still yet to answer back on so many things, surely if the idea of the above is so insane.
Would not replying back be just as easy?

Why would the UN Peace convoy be done in a way to make sure it was turned back?

Why is it ok that nearly the same government is in place and that supporting these people is not a bad thing.
Have you seen what the protesters found, it is not all down to just 1 man.
But I suppose pointing that out is also Pro-Russian.

Edit: Also bigger note on the UN convoy, which is really needed.
They could have easily gotten Russian escort to go do what is needed, EASILY.
It is needed so much as there are plenty things going on, like blockades, searching cars, arresting people, were are these people going?
What is happening to the non Russian groups in these areas?
But I suppose having a headline wiht "UN TURNED AROUND" was FAR MORE IMPORTANT then doing their job.

wexie

bobcoffee wrote: »

Why would the UN Peace convoy be done in a way to make sure it was turned back?

what's this about bob? I clearly missed something?

bobcoffee

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10677370/Ukraine-Russia-crisis-live.html

only thing I can find on here.
UN convoy when into Crimea with Ukraine soldiers and were stopped at blockades by pro-russian people.

bobcoffee

"US mulls how to use natural gas resources in Ukraine crisis:

There are discussions going on at high levels within the US government on how to use US natural gas resources as the country addresses the crisis in Ukraine, US Deputy Secretary of State William Burns said on Thursday.

US Senator Bob Corker, a Tennessee Republican, asked Burns if "it would be fair to say" there are active discussions at such levels about how to use natural gas to ease European reluctance to enact sanctions over the Ukraine crisis, and to help Ukraine.

"There certainly is," Burns responded during a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing.

It is not clear what exactly the US government could do in the short-term to help, since new projects to export liquefied natural gas (LNG) from the country's vast new shale fields are still years away. Lawmakers have urged President Barack Obama to speed up the process of approving new projects to export LNG.

A natural gas analyst said US LNG would not be an alternative to Russian supply during the Ukraine crisis because the first shipments will not enter European markets until 2016. [Reuters]"


Not sure but believe those "fields/projects" are of the fracking kind?
If so Americans sure have killed a few birds with one stone.
Weapons as closer to Russia to pushing through fracking by putting pressure on the "weak" Obama.
Should get more interesting

sopretty

bobcoffee wrote: »

"US mulls how to use natural gas resources in Ukraine crisis:

There are discussions going on at high levels within the US government on how to use US natural gas resources as the country addresses the crisis in Ukraine, US Deputy Secretary of State William Burns said on Thursday.

US Senator Bob Corker, a Tennessee Republican, asked Burns if "it would be fair to say" there are active discussions at such levels about how to use natural gas to ease European reluctance to enact sanctions over the Ukraine crisis, and to help Ukraine.

"There certainly is," Burns responded during a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing.

It is not clear what exactly the US government could do in the short-term to help, since new projects to export liquefied natural gas (LNG) from the country's vast new shale fields are still years away. Lawmakers have urged President Barack Obama to speed up the process of approving new projects to export LNG.

A natural gas analyst said US LNG would not be an alternative to Russian supply during the Ukraine crisis because the first shipments will not enter European markets until 2016. [Reuters]"


Not sure but believe those "fields/projects" are of the fracking kind?
If so Americans sure have killed a few birds with one stone.
Weapons as closer to Russia to pushing through fracking by putting pressure on the "weak" Obama.
Should get more interesting

The Republicans can't understand us Europeans really, can they? They are trying to fathom why we are preferring diplomacy over war. So, they figure, well, 'they must need gas/oil - will we send them some and would they go to war then? lol'

Gas (pun intended).

sin_city

Jonny7 wrote: »

Interpol has received request for arrest warrant for Yanukovych, looks like he may have to holiday in Russia for now on

What is the arrest warrant related to?

Jonny7

sin_city wrote: »

What is the arrest warrant related to?

Switzerland, Austria and possibly a third country have pending criminal investigations into him and his son including money laundering

The Ukrainian police want him in conjunction with several charges, the most serious being "mass murder"

Him and his staff partially burnt and left 200 folders in the bottom of one of his private lakes, which has been retrieved and they are currently still going through it

Also 17 or 18 of his ex-ministers have had international sanctions laid on them

Interpol are considering the request, but it's very unlikely the Russians will ever give him up