Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

sin_city

Jonny7 wrote: »

Switzerland, Austria and possibly a third country have pending criminal investigations into him and his son including money laundering

The Ukrainian police want him in conjunction with several charges, the most serious being "mass murder"

Him and his staff partially burnt and left 200 folders in the bottom of one of his private lakes, which has been retrieved and they are currently still going through it

Also 17 or 18 of his ex-ministers have had international sanctions laid on them

Interpol are considering the request, but it's very unlikely the Russians will ever give him up

"Mass murder"?

I'd like to know more about this because I consider Obama to also be involved in mass murder with the drone program.

Who do you consider responsible for the drone deaths?

josip

Jonny7 wrote: »

...

Him and his staff partially burnt and left 200 folders in the bottom of one of his private lakes, which has been retrieved and they are currently still going through it

...

Are the EPA after him for this one?

riffmongous

bobcoffee wrote: »

I logged on to make this post, I feel like I really want to point something out that is confusing me.

I have seen many invasions from the news in my lifetime, with lots of blood and cover ups, with little care for human rights.
This is the part that is confusing me.
Has Putin showed the world how to "do your business", get your goals that you want and not have to fire a bullet to do so?
Really think about your answer, not just quoting one line to make your point and put the whole thing out of context.
Look at other wars, really mean this, when has their been an invasion like this before?

While Ukraine deserves a lot more respect from all sides, being forced to sign deals to get "AID" or (finally admitting it) "military AID".
This kind of "help" normally cripples the countries for years to come.
It is why people in Ireland have campaigned to get our government to wipe off third world debt.

Eh, you know this sort of stuff was done before in the 30s, its nothing new

bobcoffee

riffmongous I have no idea what your talking about.
comparing Puting to Hitler (not saying your wrong just not sure of your direction).
which part is the same?

wexie

bobcoffee wrote: »

I have seen many invasions from the news in my lifetime, with lots of blood and cover ups, with little care for human rights.
This is the part that is confusing me. Has Putin showed the world how to "do your business", get your goals that you want and not have to fire a bullet to do so? Really think about your answer, not just quoting one line to make your point and put the whole thing out of context. Look at other wars, really mean this, when has their been an invasion like this before?

I have to admit: I don't think I agree with what he's doing, but he's doing it really well. Despite the blatant lies about who are or aren't Russian troops, carrying Russian equipment in Russian vehicles.

If he is willing to leave it at just getting Crimea back as Russian territory I'd be surprised if he doesn't end up getting what he wants without any major repercussions.

If he decides to go for the rest (or other parts) of Ukraine..... well then ****edifiknow.....

bobcoffee

To me Crimea is not the worse of it and neither is Putin (YET).
The original government is in place with very little changes.
This "new" government is 100% sponsored by the EU/US and the EPP party.

So now the protesters will have to protest again as the corruption and debt of the country (in my opinion) will spiral out of control.
It will take time of course and lots of "leaked" and "new" evidence to trickle through all the bull going on.
With the original protesters under watch, the lack of support from the western world (as it takes them a long time to stop supporting one side).
How would a second protest play out?

robindch

bobcoffee wrote: »

UN convoy when into Crimea with Ukraine soldiers and were stopped at blockades by pro-russian people.

So much for Putin's claim that Crimea will be a safer place with the Russian Army pro-Russian vigilantes in charge.

Akarinn

If he is willing to leave it at just getting Crimea back as Russian territory I'd be surprised if he doesn't end up getting what he wants without any major repercussions.

Its like Hitler and the Danzig Corridor...

sopretty

I'd be worried about how someone like him will feel, after gaining a new territory unchallenged so to speak. I think that's why it's such a huge issue for a lot of nations. They're not necessarily worried about Crimea. They're more worried about how he perceives them if they don't take any action against him, and what he would do in future!

robindch

sopretty wrote: »

I'd be worried about how someone like him will feel, after gaining a new territory unchallenged so to speak.

He's already fully acquired South Ossettia and Abkhazia by "provoked" invasion and Transnistra by proxy. Crimea is simply the most recent territory he's fired up to acquire.

I've been to Abkhazia and Transnistra and I've driven past South Ossettia. If these three stateless, intensely corrupt states are the best that Putin's minor colonial adventures can conjure up, then frankly, the people of Crimea are f*cking insane to want to join themselves to Putin and his court of gagging, xenophobic thieves.

Reekwind

robindch wrote: »

He's already fully acquired South Ossettia and Abkhazia by "provoked" invasion

Yes, that crafty Putin, forcing the Georgians into shelling South Ossetian towns and villages. I bet that he secretly stage-managed the recent revolution in Kiev so as to encourage separatists there as well.

What a cunning guy. He almost makes it look like there's long-standing simmering territorial and ethnic conflicts in the lands of the former Soviet Union

sin_city

Reekwind wrote: »

Yes, that crafty Putin, forcing the Georgians into shelling South Ossetian towns and villages. I bet that he secretly stage-managed the recent revolution in Kiev so as to encourage separatists there as well.

What a cunning guy. He almost makes it look like there's long-standing simmering territorial and ethnic conflicts in the lands of the former Soviet Union

Is it true that those ethnic Russians are citizens of the Russian Federation?

Jonny7

robindch wrote: »

He's already fully acquired South Ossettia and Abkhazia by "provoked" invasion and Transnistra by proxy. Crimea is simply the most recent territory he's fired up to acquire.

I've been to Abkhazia and Transnistra and I've driven past South Ossettia. If these three stateless, intensely corrupt states are the best that Putin's minor colonial adventures can conjure up, then frankly, the people of Crimea are f*cking insane to want to join themselves to Putin and his court of gagging, xenophobic thieves.

Many of them see it differently - that Russia has more to offer them than Ukraine

Besides Russia24 is now clogging the airwaves in Crimea with crap

I don't see the "vote" going any other way and will just fortify to Russians that Crimea is theirs.

sin_city

Jonny7 wrote: »

Many of them see it differently - that Russia has more to offer them than Ukraine

Besides Russia24 is now clogging the airwaves in Crimea with crap

I don't see the "vote" going any other way and will just fortify to Russians that Crimea is theirs.

Have you contact with people from the region or is that based on opinion?

Jonny7

sin_city wrote: »

Have you contact with people from the region or is that based on opinion?

I know about a half dozen Ukrainians, but none from Crimea

Mainly opinion based on news feeds I've been reading for the last few weeks

One of the Russian far right leaders, Zhirinovsky, was in Crimea and Sevastopol stating:

"Crimea and Sevastopol will get whatever they need. There is money. This will be a present from me. A bank loan that does not need to be paid back. Gas will be made available at the lowest prices. Free if you need it. You will all have a TV in your home and more consular services, all over Ukraine, but especially in Sevastopol."

Reekwind

sin_city wrote: »

Is it true that those ethnic Russians are citizens of the Russian Federation?

Some would be, as with the rest of the Ukraine. Not unlike Northern Ireland or any region with a mixed/recent history.

For example, last week I was passing through Amsterdam airport at the same time as a flight from Kiev. Almost everyone in the passport queue beside me was carrying a Russian passport

sopretty

Jonny7 wrote: »

I know about a half dozen Ukrainians, but none from Crimea

Mainly opinion based on news feeds I've been reading for the last few weeks

One of the Russian far right leaders, Zhirinovsky, was in Crimea and Sevastopol stating:

"Crimea and Sevastopol will get whatever they need. There is money. This will be a present from me. A bank loan that does not need to be paid back. Gas will be made available at the lowest prices. Free if you need it. You will all have a TV in your home and more consular services, all over Ukraine, but especially in Sevastopol."

Can you ask these 6 Ukrainians how they feel about blacks? Or how they feel about white supremacy? This is a genuine question.

Dannyboy83

“The proposed referendum on the future of Crimea would violate the constitution and violate international law,” Obama said. “We are well beyond the days when borders can be redrawn over the heads of democratic leaders.”

Well, I've criticized the Russians when it was appropriate.
Now it's time to apply it equally to the US.

The above comments by President Obama make no sense to me.

This is a democratic process, the Americans have no right to intervene here.
If the people of Crimea democratically vote to leave Ukraine, then that is their right.

Furthermore, the US are on very shaky ground with this logic, as it undermines one of their key allies - Israel.

Jonny7

sopretty wrote: »

Can you ask these 6 Ukrainians how they feel about blacks? Or how they feel about white supremacy? This is a genuine question.

Try to see things in context. I could zone in on groups of Irish racists - and trust there are plenty - do you think their views are representative of yours?

Do you think they are representative of Ireland's?

You think 44 million people in Ukraine are racist?

The answer is no

sopretty

Jonny7 wrote: »

Try to see things in context. I could zone in on groups of Irish racists - and trust there are plenty - do you think their views are representative of yours?

Do you think they are representative of Ireland's?

You think 44 million people in Ukraine are racist?

The answer is no

Which is why I asked for actual opinions.

S.R.

Lads, honestly, I am reading posts here and having a laugh. Sorry, mean no offence.
U do not know much about Russian history, same thing about Ukraine - yet are making your verdicts.
Imagine, somewhere in Ukraine or Russia group of lads sit down and discuss Irish and English affairs without reading at least one book on where Ireland or England did start from.))

S.R.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'

Rus is old word for Russia. If that land is Ukranian, then why it was called Kievan Rus instead of Kievan Ukraine?

sopretty

S.R. wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'

Rus is old word for Russia. If that land is Ukranian, then why it was called Kievan Rus instead of Kievan Ukraine?

Frankly my dear? I don't give a damn why!

S.R.

sopretty wrote: »

Frankly my dear? I don't give a damn why!

I know u don't.
Ur case is an example how people judge and make verdicts without knowledge.

Scofflaw

S.R. wrote: »

I know u don't.
Ur case is an example how people judge and make verdicts without knowledge.

S.R., harassing another poster is completely unacceptable. 5 posts deleted, 3 day ban. If you decide to come back, note that text-speak, and text-message style posting, is also not allowed in the forum. Failure to heed these warnings will most likely result in an immediate and permanent ban.

moderately irritated,
Scofflaw

bobcoffee

deleted as to not drag out conversation.

sopretty

S.R. wrote: »

I know u don't.
Ur case is an example how people judge and make verdicts without knowledge.

I have read 447 posts on this thread, over 2000 posts on another relevant thread, I have watched various News stations over the past 4 days, to keep up to date, and try to comprehend this situation.

You think I have no knowledge of this situation? lol. I'm not good with names, facts, or details or regurgitating them, but I am good with absorbing facts and details and then forming an opinion.
If you look at my earlier posts on this thread, you will see that I had sympathy with the people of Ukraine, and identified with them as fellow Europeans.
I have now realised (in part thanks to your contributions on a Racism thread), that I was blindly unaware of a particular view coming from this part of the world.

bobcoffee

well sopretty, how do you feel about the EPP, the idea of them being facist light (EUROPEAN MEDIA).
also there was a group who normally protests in dublin and facebook closed down the page and all relevant links to it.
they planned to have protests outside the meeting which I believe they still did.

and on top of that the same government is in place, while before not being sponsored by the EU it is now.

I'm lost on how Ukraine's would be fellow European, more like the ability to become more in debt.
Took long enough for polish people to be allowed into Europe like a "normal" European.

My point really, isn't the whole Idea of them being European more of a "bull" line to make it look like there doing something.
Enda had no problems in pointing out that we plugged a whole in the European market, remember we have payed back money, do believe at one go 3 billion euro HAD to be burnt by the EU.
We really could have used that.

karma_

sopretty wrote: »

I have read 447 posts on this thread, over 2000 posts on another relevant thread, I have watched various News stations over the past 4 days, to keep up to date, and try to comprehend this situation.

You think I have no knowledge of this situation? lol. I'm not good with names, facts, or details or regurgitating them, but I am good with absorbing facts and details and then forming an opinion.
If you look at my earlier posts on this thread, you will see that I had sympathy with the people of Ukraine, and identified with them as fellow Europeans.
I have now realised (in part thanks to your contributions on a Racism thread), that I was blindly unaware of a particular view coming from this part of the world.

I know of the other thread and to be quite honest you could count on the fingers of one hand the number of posters taking any kind of impartial view and talking any kind of sense.

sopretty

To be quite frank SR, I am no longer concerned about Ukrainians. You know, if you don't want to be part of EU, then eh.......... just don't accept their money. Also, educate yourselves on the fact that discrimination against black people is well....... eh.........