Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

bobcoffee

sorry sopretty, looks like SR really got to ye.
Mod got involved and banned him for few days.

any change you could tell me your opinions about any of this

robindch

karma_ wrote: »

I know of the other thread and to be quite honest you could count on the fingers of one hand the number of posters taking any kind of impartial view and talking any kind of sense.

Don't think I've dropped by the other thread, but the amount of nonsense produced by the pro-Russian side -- both here and in real life -- is shocking.

I'm speaking, btw, as somebody who was in Kiev two weeks ago and saw the conflict erupt right in front of me, who speaks passable Russian, has visited both Ukraine and Russia many times, and has a fairly good appreciation for the complexities of both Crimea (closest approach, Odessa + Gagra) and the wider political mess.

Yes, there are neo-Nazis within Правий Сектор (Pravii Sektor), but they are almost certainly in the minority. Yes, ПС probably started the initial violence two weeks back, but they were supported by the majority of the Kievan population who were, and are, sick to the back teeth of levels of state-funded corruption that would make Bertie Ahern wince. Yes, the EU and US funded some moderate groups, but there is no evidence that they have funded ПС to any significant degree; both the EU and the US have repeatedly condemned violence on all sides. No, the Ukrainian Parliament was not forced by ПС to eject Yanokovich; instead, they voted to get rid of him themselves when it became clear that he was a liability; even his own party dumped him like a hot rock. Putin and his propaganda machine have been quick to generate saturation coverage and ritual condemnations of ПС's violence and news of a far-right coup; they have been virtually silent on the far greater threat posed by their own state-sponsored vigilantes and army; they have lied grandly and repeatedly via their state-controlled media outlets -- Russia Today (rt.com) and a range of paranoid conspiracy websites (globalresearch, informationclearinghouse and others) which appeal to low-information, gullible keyboard warriors. Most disastrously of all, the Russian state has openly fomented civil strife and division in large parts of Ukraine for no reason other than Ukraine wishes to leave Russia's sphere of influence and a small, malevolent, former-KGB bastard wishes them do die while doing so - it was his job to make sure that East Berlin would remain forever Russian and in this political end, and the homicidal methods he is willing to use to achieve it, have remained unchanged since those cold days. I could go on, but there's little point. While there are complexities that would make anybody's head tilt, at heart, this is a simple conflict - one small, weak country has been invaded by a strong, paranoid one for the most venal of reasons.

Putin should be up in front of the International Criminal Court for what he has done to Crimea and Ukraine and their peoples, though it's unlikely he'll ever face justice. And his apologists, here on boards and elsewhere should be ashamed of themselves.

karma_

robindch wrote: »

Don't think I've dropped by the other thread, but the amount of nonsense produced by the pro-Russian side -- both here and in real life -- is shocking.

I'm speaking, btw, as somebody who was in Kiev two weeks ago and saw the conflict erupt right in front of me, who speaks passable Russian, has visited both Ukraine and Russia many times, and has a fairly good appreciation for the complexities of both Crimea (closest approach, Odessa + Gagra) and the wider political mess.

Yes, there are neo-Nazis within Правий Сектор (Pravii Sektor), but they are almost certainly in the minority. Yes, ПС probably started the initial violence two weeks back, but they were supported by the majority of the Kievan population who were, and are, sick to the back teeth of levels of state-funded corruption that would make Bertie Ahern wince. Yes, the EU and US funded some moderate groups, but there is no evidence that they have funded ПС to any significant degree; both the EU and the US have repeatedly condemned violence on all sides. No, the Ukrainian Parliament was not forced by ПС to eject Yanokovich; instead, they voted to get rid of him themselves when it became clear that he was a liability; even his own party dumped him like a hot rock. Putin and his propaganda machine have been quick to generate saturation coverage and ritual condemnations of ПС's violence and news of a far-right coup; they have been virtually silent on the far greater threat posed by their own state-sponsored vigilantes and army; they have lied grandly and repeatedly via their state-controlled media outlets -- Russia Today (rt.com) and a range of paranoid conspiracy websites (globalresearch, informationclearinghouse and others) which appeal to low-information, gullible keyboard warriors. Most disastrously of all, the Russian state has openly fomented civil strife and division in large parts of Ukraine for no reason other than Ukraine wishes to leave Russia's sphere of influence and a small, malevolent, former-KGB bastard wishes them do die while doing so - it was his job to make sure that East Berlin would remain forever Russian and in this political end, and the homicidal methods he is willing to use to achieve it, have remained unchanged since those cold days. I could go on, but there's little point. While there are complexities that would make anybody's head tilt, at heart, this is a simple conflict - one small, weak country has been invaded by a strong, paranoid one for the most venal of reasons.

Putin should be up in front of the International Criminal Court for what he has done to Crimea and Ukraine and their peoples, though it's unlikely he'll ever face justice. And his apologists, here on boards and elsewhere should be ashamed of themselves.

Hold your britches, to be honest it is possible to have an impartial view of this and not be pro-Russian. Holy hell, I've seen posters advocate military mobilisation and deployment to the Ukrainian border, over the Crimea? Like that was such a great idea the last time.

bobcoffee

"Putin should be up in front of the International Criminal Court for what he has done to Crimea and Ukraine and their peoples, though it's unlikely he'll ever face justice. And his apologists, here on boards and elsewhere should be ashamed of themselves. "

Wow, so invading a country, by means of force without slaughtering the locals involves - criminal court.
but those that do invade countries and slaughter them are OK?

The criminals who ran the country are still there, what about them?

I agree with Karma you can easily see the falseness of that statement without being pro-russian or wanting Putin to be invading a country.

Personally our whole system for the criminal court needs to be looked at, NOBODY should be above the law and that should be "fixed"
If you look at FACTS there is a lot more criminals in the world making profits off wars, can look way closer at home.
Once again why should our (western world) get away with murder but Putin shouldn't.
The logic in that is completely flawed.

YES to putting criminals WORLD WIDE TO COURT.
NO to putting just the ones that suit us.

Scofflaw

karma_ wrote: »

Hold your britches, to be honest it is possible to have an impartial view of this and not be pro-Russian.

Well, thank heavens! That sorts that out, then.

partially, apparently,
Scofflaw

karma_

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, thank heavens! That sorts that out, then.

partially, apparently,
Scofflaw

If you need anything else sorted, world hunger, the climate... anything, just give us a bell.

aloyisious

OSCE Pers at a checkpoint in the disputed region.

Re Bobcoffees point about Non-ethnic troops on the ground, I've noticed that the troops wearing the helmets and masks are in the background and leaving the apparently more-poorly equipped (cloth-capped) pers in the forward positions. In the attached photo, the helmeted gents are in urban warfare DPM clothing, not the green-type, so I think they are not local ethnic-Russians.

Sand

Well, it was a quote worthy of a signature.

I concur with robindch though. The Russian state, Russia Today, and its supporters are engaged in a level of untruth that is quite frankly impressive in its scope. At the risk of Godwin, the level of complete contempt for truth in their position is up there with the "Big lie" advocated by Goebbels. Putin is on record as denying that the Russian troops that have invaded Ukraine are actually there. That this is taken seriously in Russia is a sad indictment of the level of press freedom in Russia. That people outside Russia take that seriously is even sadder.

bobcoffee

actually Sand it is not impressive at all, actually for "today" social media manipulation it is quite low.
I mean tell me one person that believes there is no Russian troops in Ukraine?
However tell me how many people in Europe don't know they changed laws to help "fast track" the European crisis.
To me they just changes laws to make the situation legal.. allowing for the 400 billion Bertie Ahern full of bull scam to happen.
Plenty of laws broken, plenty of rights taken away.
How about the Oil and Gas in this country and the Garda abuse that most don't know about.
Even just the news that was in Europe and what was gong on in Ireland was full of lies.
Stopped watching Euro News after that but all the media was in on it.

Or the cover ups of American forces around the world.
The list goes on and on.

So I'm still lost on the whole.. its OK for western world to do this kind of things (include more murder and torture).
But Putin invades a country with out slaughtering people and then that is MAJOR no no.

What is wrong with everyone being painted with the same brush?

aloyisious

I was wondering when the Crimean Parliament was set up, and if it was a puppet-govt, a proxy. Wiki has this: https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDMQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSupreme_Council_of_Crimea&ei=0DEaU5DZNrCw7Aazm4EQ&usg=AFQjCNEj2eji9zYXCJKYeAWKlo1Cz8ou2Q&bvm=bv.62578216,d.ZGU

Sand

bobcoffee wrote: »

actually Sand it is not impressive at all, actually for "today" social media manipulation it is quite low.
I mean tell me one person that believes there is no Russian troops in Ukraine?
However tell me how many people in Europe don't know they changed laws to help "fast track" the European crisis.
To me they just changes laws to make the situation legal.. allowing for the 400 billion Bertie Ahern full of bull scam to happen.
Plenty of laws broken, plenty of rights taken away.
How about the Oil and Gas in this country and the Garda abuse that most don't know about.
Even just the news that was in Europe and what was gong on in Ireland was full of lies.
Stopped watching Euro News after that but all the media was in on it.

Or the cover ups of American forces around the world.
The list goes on and on.

So I'm still lost on the whole.. its OK for western world to do this kind of things (include more murder and torture).
But Putin invades a country with out slaughtering people and then that is MAJOR no no.

What is wrong with everyone being painted with the same brush?

Bob - save me some time. What is it that you *do* want to talk about? Because it's surely not the topic to hand.

AlekSmart

karma_ wrote: »

If you need anything else sorted, world hunger, the climate... anything, just give us a bell.

Bono!!...How the Hell are you ?...it's been a while...now lets get down to business ! :eek:

Elmer Blooker

Excuse my ignorance but can anyone give me one reason why Mr Putin should hand over the Crimea to NATO? It's been the home of the Russian Black Sea fleet since god knows when and didn't thousands of soldiers die at Gallipoli - ANZACS, Dublin Fusileers, Munster Fusileers, attempting to open a sea route through the Dardanelles to their Russian allies during WW1.
I'm sure Khruschev, himself a Ukrainian, thought when he gave Crimea from Russia to Ukraine in 1954 it was "a gesture of solidarity among Soviet peoples" or some such jargon. If it was part of Russia up to 1954 I don't really see a problem in having a referendum but its not that simple, those recent "f*** the EU" comments show ol' Uncle Sam is up to his dirty tricks again.

Sand

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but can anyone give me one reason why Mr Putin should hand over the Crimea to NATO?

Sure - its not his sovereign territory to hand over or keep.

Iwasfrozen

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but can anyone give me one reason why Mr Putin should hand over the Crimea to NATO? It's been the home of the Russian Black Sea fleet since god knows when and didn't thousands of soldiers die at Gallipoli - ANZACS, Dublin Fusileers, Munster Fusileers, attempting to open a sea route through the Dardanelles to their Russian allies during WW1.
I'm sure Khruschev, himself a Ukrainian, thought when he gave Crimea from Russia to Ukraine in 1954 it was "a gesture of solidarity among Soviet peoples" or some such jargon. If it was part of Russia up to 1954 I don't really see a problem in having a referendum but its not that simple, those recent "f*** the EU" comments show ol' Uncle Sam is up to his dirty tricks again.

Well Russians are not native to Crimea. The peninsula was annexed in the mid 18th century, before that it was a Turkish protectorate with a majority Crimean Tatar population. However Stalin condemned the entire Crimean Tatar people to exile in Siberia because of their collaboration with the Nazis. The Russians who live in Crimea now are settlers. So in that sense Russia has no more rightful claim to

bobcoffee

wait EU, corruption, Ukraine, Putin have nothing to do with the topic.

Elmer Blooker

Sand wrote: »

Sure - its not his sovereign territory to hand over or keep.

if the majority of the population of the Crimea want to become part of Russia then why not? (after a referendum of course)
I think a referendum in the Crimea is a democratic solution, no one will ever know why Khruschev gave the Crimea from Russia to Ukraine anyway.
Why was it part of Russia up to 1954?

Manach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well Russians are not native to Crimea. The peninsula was annexed in the mid 18th century, before that it was a Turkish protectorate with a majority Crimean Tatar population. However Stalin condemned the entire Crimean Tatar people to exile in Siberia because of their collaboration with the Nazis. The Russians who live in Crimea now are settlers. So in that sense Russia has no more rightful claim to

So the American presence, in say America has no rightful claim. Just speaking based on my knowledge of Russian/World history books, and know that migration patterns were seldom state directed and more conducted on as a needed basis by peoples needing new lands or fleeing a conqueror. No doubt going back in history, the earliest justifiable settlers would be Cavemen?

Elmer Blooker

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well Russians are not native to Crimea. The peninsula was annexed in the mid 18th century, before that it was a Turkish protectorate with a majority Crimean Tatar population. However Stalin condemned the entire Crimean Tatar people to exile in Siberia because of their collaboration with the Nazis. The Russians who live in Crimea now are settlers. So in that sense Russia has no more rightful claim to

Yeah right, the Prods up north are settlers but there are there to stay........

Sand

bobcoffee wrote: »

wait EU, corruption, Ukraine, Putin have nothing to do with the topic.

Pretty sure Gardai, Bertie Ahern, Shell to Sea, evil American empire, western torture and murder, Fox News and freeman of the land doesn't.

I think a lot of commentators are sadly bitter and angry over other unrelated issues, so become engaged in a nihilistic view of the world. Their view on a topic has little to do with the issue to hand, its more about their disappointment and disillusionment with the western world.

Sand

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

if the majority of the population of the Crimea want to become part of Russia then why not? (after a referendum of course)
I think a referendum in the Crimea is a democratic solution, no one will ever know why Khruschev gave the Crimea from Russia to Ukraine anyway.
Why was it part of Russia up to 1954?

Because the Russians deported and massacred the previous inhabitants? You don't really hear much about the Greek Crimeans anymore.

As for a majority of Crimea voting to join Russia - sure why not, under free and fair conditions. Under occupation by Russian military where dissenters are beaten and terrorised by militias and mobs - not so much.

Crimea isn't 99% Russian. Its about 58% so and I would doubt all of them want to join Putin's Russia. Do the 42% ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars get to vote to secede from Crimea? Street by street if necessary to ensure a proper democratic solution?

The key thing though is Putin doesnt want Crimea. All that is just misdirection to whip up the mob. He wants Crimea *in* Ukraine, but as a constant hindrance to establishing rule of law, democracy and human rights in the Ukraine. Essentially he wants to turn Ukraine into another Chechnya.

bobcoffee

Garda, Bertie Ahern, Shell to Sea, is corruption within our own doorstep.
Western torture and murder, is allowed and goes unpunished.
don't know why you mention FOX news.. it is most of the western world news.. fox news is just a tiny part of that.

the above shows the ongoing corruption that is OUR MEDIA has no problem in lying about it.
but when Russian Media does it... once again its horrible bad and needs to be stopped?

Since it is the US and the EU and that we LIVE in lies to us and spends A incredible amount on it.
It does make the Russia media quite small and pathetic.

We have our own major corruption and those who are at the top of our own corruption are sponsoring the Ukraine government.
Who are the same guys as before just minus one or two guys.
You don't see this as a problem?
Don't see EU pretending to let the Ukraine into Europe is an issue?
Cause once they are "in" there not allowed to move around.
What there getting access is to allow a REALLY corrupt government to get the country into more debt.

Not saying Russia is any better but look at what is around you.

Sand

My point is Bob that you need to start your own thread to discuss those issues rather than try to interject your views on the western world into a discussion about a specific topic like the Russian occupation of the Ukraine.

bobcoffee

what you point was about how EVIL russia media is manipulating the world...
you LIVE IN THE WESTERN WORLD.
at what point are you not being manipulated.
THAT IS THE POINT.

TOPIC IS "urkaine on the brink of civil war"
NOT HOW EVIL IS RUSSIA.

you have not answered any questions except avoiding everything by saying things are off topic.

EDIT:
and no response.. wow typical.. "My point is Bob that you need to start your own thread to discuss those issues rather than try to interject your views on the western world into a discussion about a specific topic like the Russian occupation of the Ukraine. "

You points along with others have huge flaws.. while pointing them out I have been accused of many things in this thread.
Still you guys can't even answer questions about your flawed points.

Iwasfrozen

Manach wrote: »

So the American presence, in say America has no rightful claim. Just speaking based on my knowledge of Russian/World history books, and know that migration patterns were seldom state directed and more conducted on as a needed basis by peoples needing new lands or fleeing a conqueror. No doubt going back in history, the earliest justifiable settlers would be Cavemen?

No, frankly but it's not likely to change is it.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Yeah right, the Prods up north are settlers but there are there to stay........

Not prodestents, you mean Ulster-Scots and yes it's a very similar situation. The irony of all ironies is the same people who are in favour of Irish unification seem to be largely unopposed to Russians planting their own people in someone else's country.

Sand

bobcoffee wrote: »

what you point was about how EVIL russia media is manipulating the world...
you LIVE IN THE WESTERN WORLD.
at what point are you not being manipulated.
THAT IS THE POINT.

TOPIC IS "urkaine on the brink of civil war"
NOT HOW EVIL IS RUSSIA.

you have not answered any questions except avoiding everything by saying things are off topic.

EDIT:
and no response.. wow typical.. "My point is Bob that you need to start your own thread to discuss those issues rather than try to interject your views on the western world into a discussion about a specific topic like the Russian occupation of the Ukraine. "

You points along with others have huge flaws.. while pointing them out I have been accused of many things in this thread.
Still you guys can't even answer questions about your flawed points.

You haven't actually addressed a single point I've raised. Badly or otherwise. I think I can empathise with your plight though. You are coming at this from a view that anyone living in the western world is horribly manipulated. The issue being discussed isn't really important - from your point of view its just another symptom of the core problem that Fox News lies to us and we aren't smart enough to realise it.

That's a real pickle of a problem. You should start a thread about it.

bobcoffee

Sand wrote: »

I think I can empathise with your plight though. You are coming at this from a view that anyone living in the western world is horribly manipulated. The issue being discussed isn't really important - from your point of view its just another symptom of the core problem that Fox News lies to us and we aren't smart enough to realise it.

That's a real pickle of a problem. You should start a thread about it.

So no more, off topic just create a thread because you don't think both sides of media attempting to manipulate the world to prove their own "goals" is not an issue even though it is on topic.
But it is just the Russian media that is at fault?

Edit: Reminder of your post

Sand

My objective statement that Putin is on record as laughably denying the Russian troops occupying Ukraine actually exist is an invitation for you to give out about western media? I don't follow.

There is a healthy level of cyncism that can enable you to think calmly. There is an unhealthy level of nihilism which blinds you. You seem to have a lot to say about the untrustworthy nature of western media. You ought to start a thread about it.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, frankly but it's not likely to change is it.


Not prodestents, you mean Ulster-Scots and yes it's a very similar situation. The irony of all ironies is the same people who are in favour of Irish unification seem to be largely unopposed to Russians planting their own people in someone else's country.

Is the irony lost on you that you have argued the literal opposite in relation to NI on many an occasion.

And to be fair I just don't feel it's worth starting a war over the Crimea, nor do I think it's worth starting a new cold war (not that the last one ever ended). Let the Crimeans decide their own future and let them have their referendum, what's so wrong about that? Let the EU monitor it but just get it done, if they vote to remain within the Ukraine then Russia have no other option but to leave them to it.

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

Is the irony lost on you that you have argued the literal opposite in relation to NI on many an occasion.

I didn't realise I was arguing in favour of anything in my post? I think you're well aware of my position on Northern Ireland.

karma_ wrote: »

And to be fair I just don't feel it's worth starting a war over the Crimea, nor do I think it's worth starting a new cold war (not that the last one ever ended). Let the Crimeans decide their own future and let them have their referendum, what's so wrong about that? Let the EU monitor it but just get it done, if they vote to remain within the Ukraine then Russia have no other option but to leave them to it.

Putin declared war on Ukraine when he invaded Crimea, a NATO response would not be an initial attack.

Let the Crimeans decide their own future and let them have their referendum, what's so wrong about that? Let the EU monitor it but just get it done, if they vote to remain within the Ukraine then Russia have no other option but to leave them to it.

Can easily become,

" Let the Ulster Scots decide their own future and let them have their referendum, what's so wrong about that? Let the EU monitor it but just get it done, if they vote to remain within the UK then Ireland have no other option but to leave them to it."

Do you see the hypocrisy latent in those who hold simultaneously hold favourable notions towards uniting Ireland against the wishes of a planted minority while advocating the partition of Ukraine based on the wishes of a planted minority? But I don't mean to drag this off topic so perhaps we should discuss it some other time.

Although I have been starting to think lately a lot of posters here are not so much pro-Russian as culturally anti-Anglosphere and everything it represents to the point of perhaps irrationality. Which I would attribute to quite a significant degree to historical bitterness as a result of Ireland's mistreatment at the hands of Britain.