Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

bobcoffee

Putin when needed creates what ever he wants with in the Russian government to stay in power.
while the trade sanctions and all those things being discussed will have little effect on this outcome.
Russians richest losing out on "real" money will be the biggest blow, so Putin during these moments has to be careful.
Our media try's its best to make him out to be a complete tool he is not.
While those types should not exist in the world they do and presuming that he is a "useless" leader is a mistake.
Putin is the "moves ahead" kind of guy, which also involves his "elite".
The negative effects of such a move would take too much toll on the elite class.

Shooting at and warning shots are 2 different things.
If the OSCE where not too busy trying to get headlines instead of doing their jobs observers would already be there.
I really see this as a UN thing and not just down to Europe even though I be surprised if the people on the ground would be different men/women.
Do believe investigation into why OSCE failed so badly needs to be done, as only talking to the Ukraine's and then showing up on Crimea doorstep was not going to work and lots of people seem to know this too.

I disagree with your comments on scripts.
Somethings are not the same at all, just look at the protestors in Ukraine, they themselves refuse to back down.
There are some major issues with the Ukraine government that other countries have no problem in supporting.

jmayo

Lemming wrote: »

Ethnic cleansing does not defacto equate with mass slaughter. So no, it's not "a bit much" to fear that it may happen.

The rulers of Russia/USSR always had a penchant for the forced mass migration of entire ethnic groups.

Just remember the word pogrom is Russian.

And before some just think it is just Ukranians factor in the 280,000 odd Crimean Tatars.
A small Muslim minority, but yet some of which have fought in the likes of Syria.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

...even then, the Tatars, despite what some people have been saying, are not native to Crimea themselves. They are part of the genetic legacy of Mongol invaders of Russia. The peninsula is part of a region that was populated by Russians over a thousand years ago before the Mongols came in and supplanted the Tatars and others.

Ehh I don't think that is exactly true.
One cannot say they were Russians and it is very simplsitic way of looking at it.
They were Kievan Rus there and Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians all owe something of their ancestory to them.
Anyway they were invaders as well.
A lot of nomadic tribes inhabitated the area and Goths, Huns, etc all past through before Mongols (Tatars) ever arrived.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

It is a region which is integral to the cultural and social history of the Russians. Crimea is more Russian than Tatar, that's for sure (don't construe my statements as supporting Putin's intervention in the region, because they're not. They're simple historical facts). Even before the area was populated by Russians, Greeks occupied the area. Perhaps we should take Crimea from the Tatars and Russians and give it back to Greece. After all, they were the original inhabitants....

The Tatars are even more settlers than the Russians are.

Russians were planted in the area after the Crimean Khanate was affectively dumped by the Ottoman empire after the Russo-Turkish War in 1774.
The Khanate was founded in 1441 by elements or offshoots of the Golden Horde which in itself was a Mongol and later Turkicized khanate.

But if we start that line of thought then yes indeed some Greeks could even turn up looking for part of Crimea back.

robindch

bobcoffee wrote: »

Shooting at and warning shots are 2 different things.

From what you've written in this post alone -- let alone your previous outings -- I don't believe you have the faintest understanding of Russia, Ukraine or Crimea, of international law, of dispute resolution, of diplomacy, of the OSCE and the role of observers, the "western" media, nor of any of people, the politics or the institutions involved in any of this hideous, constructed mess.

I have absolutely no idea why you are discussing this topic.

robindch

A fair and balanced poster spotted in Crimea during the weekend. The text translates as:

"16th of March, we decide - (nazi-crimea) or (russian crimea)



BTW, the little white sign underneath offers "Tours", though I can't imagine the open nazi symbolism warming too many peoples' hearts to the idea of a pleasant, relaxing tour around town.

markesmith

jmayo wrote: »

But if we start that line of thought then yes indeed some Greeks could even turn up looking for part of Crimea back.

The Genoese should also have a say in it

S.R.

robindch wrote: »

Don't think I've dropped by the other thread, but the amount of nonsense produced by the pro-Russian side -- both here and in real life -- is shocking.

I'm speaking, btw, as somebody who was in Kiev two weeks ago and saw the conflict erupt right in front of me, who speaks passable Russian, has visited both Ukraine and Russia many times, and has a fairly good appreciation for the complexities of both Crimea (closest approach, Odessa + Gagra) and the wider political mess.

Yes, there are neo-Nazis within Правий Сектор (Pravii Sektor), but they are almost certainly in the minority. Yes, ПС probably started the initial violence two weeks back, but they were supported by the majority of the Kievan population who were, and are, sick to the back teeth of levels of state-funded corruption that would make Bertie Ahern wince. Yes, the EU and US funded some moderate groups, but there is no evidence that they have funded ПС to any significant degree; both the EU and the US have repeatedly condemned violence on all sides. No, the Ukrainian Parliament was not forced by ПС to eject Yanokovich; instead, they voted to get rid of him themselves when it became clear that he was a liability; even his own party dumped him like a hot rock. Putin and his propaganda machine have been quick to generate saturation coverage and ritual condemnations of ПС's violence and news of a far-right coup; they have been virtually silent on the far greater threat posed by their own state-sponsored vigilantes and army; they have lied grandly and repeatedly via their state-controlled media outlets -- Russia Today (rt.com) and a range of paranoid conspiracy websites (globalresearch, informationclearinghouse and others) which appeal to low-information, gullible keyboard warriors. Most disastrously of all, the Russian state has openly fomented civil strife and division in large parts of Ukraine for no reason other than Ukraine wishes to leave Russia's sphere of influence and a small, malevolent, former-KGB bastard wishes them do die while doing so - it was his job to make sure that East Berlin would remain forever Russian and in this political end, and the homicidal methods he is willing to use to achieve it, have remained unchanged since those cold days. I could go on, but there's little point. While there are complexities that would make anybody's head tilt, at heart, this is a simple conflict - one small, weak country has been invaded by a strong, paranoid one for the most venal of reasons.

Putin should be up in front of the International Criminal Court for what he has done to Crimea and Ukraine and their peoples, though it's unlikely he'll ever face justice. And his apologists, here on boards and elsewhere should be ashamed of themselves.

Honestly, man, you need a help.
Putin must be brought to court? What about fellow Irishman Clinton? What about Bush?
Oh, no, Clinton wasn't killing serbian civil population with his bombs. He was teaching them democracy. American democracy. Besides, he has Irish roots, we should give him a discount.
And Bush was not killing people of Iraq, he was protecting world from Saddam, who had nuclear and chemical weapons. One day Colin Powell demonstrated that weapon at UN. :rolleyes:
Neo-nazis are only minority? Well organized minority rule unorganized majority. Have you never heard this? This so called minority are grandsons of ukranian fascists of WW2. Have you heard about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

The very same people, the very same organization from the very same parts of Western Ukraine.

S.R.

robindch, some nice pics here:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vLh0PaqfIE

Enjoy them, minority's protector.

Jonny7

S.R. wrote: »

This so called minority are grandsons of ukranian fascists of WW2. Have you heard about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

The very same people, the very same organization from the very same parts of Western Ukraine.

With the very same tenuous historical melodrama

Iwasfrozen

S.R. wrote: »

Honestly, man, you need a help.
Putin must be brought to court? What about fellow Irishman Clinton? What about Bush?
Oh, no, Clinton wasn't killing serbian civil population with his bombs. He was teaching them democracy. American democracy. Besides, he has Irish roots, we should give him a discount.
And Bush was not killing people of Iraq, he was protecting world from Saddam, who had nuclear and chemical weapons. One day Colin Powell demonstrated that weapon at UN. :rolleyes:
Neo-nazis are only minority? Well organized minority rule unorganized majority. Have you never heard this? This so called minority are grandsons of ukranian fascists of WW2. Have you heard about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

The very same people, the very same organization from the very same parts of Western Ukraine.

The validity of American intervention in the Balkans or Middle East is absolutely irrelevant to whether or not Putin is guilty of war crimes against Ukrainians. Stop trying to derail the thread.

Frank Lee Midere

S.R. wrote: »

Honestly, man, you need a help.
Putin must be brought to court? What about fellow Irishman Clinton? What about Bush?
Oh, no, Clinton wasn't killing serbian civil population with his bombs. He was teaching them democracy. American democracy. Besides, he has Irish roots, we should give him a discount.
And Bush was not killing people of Iraq, he was protecting world from Saddam, who had nuclear and chemical weapons. One day Colin Powell demonstrated that weapon at UN. :rolleyes:
Neo-nazis are only minority? Well organized minority rule unorganized majority. Have you never heard this? This so called minority are grandsons of ukranian fascists of WW2. Have you heard about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

The very same people, the very same organization from the very same parts of Western Ukraine.

Is Clinton Irish now? But let's bring all war crims to court. Putin especially.

S.R.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The validity of American intervention in the Balkans or Middle East is absolutely irrelevant to whether or not Putin is guilty of war crimes against Ukrainians. Stop trying to derail the thread.

I am not trying to derail anything, stop dreaming.
I am trying to learn were robindch and Co. talking about court when Clinton and Bush destroyed Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan?

What war crimes Putin is guilty of? Name them.
There is no war yet, but war crimes have been already committed? Nice one!

Harold Weiss

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The validity of American intervention in the Balkans or Middle East is absolutely irrelevant to whether or not Putin is guilty of war crimes against Ukrainians. Stop trying to derail the thread.

What I find funny about these shenanigans between east and west is when you take a side, like you're watching a football game.

You're completely unaware of your participation in the script being played out yet take the moral high ground supporting "freedom" and "democracy" like a dupe.

It's really lame.

S.R.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Is Clinton Irish now? But let's bring all war crims to court. Putin especially.

No, he is not Irish. He is from Guadelupa.

bobcoffee

ok well it is nice to know I'm not making everything up.
lost on why it is wrong to see faults on both sides.
pointing out the faults means you have to add other points from around the world.
that does not mean anyone is trying to derail a thread.

not saying my points are valid or right but just thoughts and most here who have attempted to point out wrong doings of my thoughts have done so in such childish manners.

If I started a "quoting session" of these moments people might be surprised of who is trying to derail threads.

Iwasfrozen

S.R. wrote: »

I am not trying to derail anything, stop dreaming.
I am trying to learn were robindch and Co. talking about court when Clinton and Bush destroyed Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan?

What war crimes Putin is guilty of? Name them.
There is no war yet, but war crimes have been already committed? Nice one!

Clinton and Bush have absolutely nothing to do with Putin's invasion of Crimea. And that's the topic of discussion.

Invading another country is a declaration of war. You're asking me to name crimes Putin has committed, how can I when no investigation has been carried out yet.

Harold Weiss

bobcoffee wrote: »

ok well it is nice to know I'm not making everything up.
lost on why it is wrong to see faults on both sides.
pointing out the faults means you have to add other points from around the world.
that does not mean anyone is trying to derail a thread.

not saying my points are valid or right but just thoughts and most here who have attempted to point out wrong doings of my thoughts have done so in such childish manners.

If I started a "quoting session" of these moments people might be surprised of who is trying to derail threads.

I completely see the faults on both sides.
Not stupid enough to fall for that "Us vs Them" mentality the mainstream media love to sell to its brainwashed viewers. The US are the worst offenders for this IMHO but Russia doesn't have a hard time exposing BS from western MSM so it's of no surprise some people in west support Putin.

US and Russian power structures are both as bad as each other, the fact some people pretend one is more honorable than the other is why people will always stumble into wars that only benefit the same people that start them.

If war does break out between Russia and US (I doubt it will) I nominate all pro-US posters on here to pick up a gun and go over to Middle East or Ukraine to die for "freedom"

I'll be cheering you all the way!

S.R.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Clinton and Bush have absolutely nothing to do with Putin's invasion of Crimea. And that's the topic of discussion.

Invading another country is a declaration of war. You're asking me to name crimes Putin has committed, how can I when no investigation has been carried out yet.

Then why are you talking about war crimes if no investigation has been carried out yet?

Iwasfrozen

S.R. wrote: »

Then why are you talking about war crimes if no investigation has been carried out yet?

I never said he should be, you asked why shouldn't Bush or Clinton be brought to court and I related that back to Putin.

bobcoffee

actually topic is "ukraine on the brink of civil war".
USA gets brought in over that fact of how 2 faced it would be for USA or UK or even EU to demand sanctions or Putin be brought for war crimes.
we are still missing a war, so far for now and the only ones I can see still trying to push seems to be us.
Putin has already made his move and hasn't gone any further (yet).
Surely making sure it doesn't go further would be top priority.

Still the Ukraine government is one very corrupt entity, lost on why supporting this helps those supporters who been fighting and dying to get corruption out of their system.

Iwasfrozen

bobcoffee wrote: »

actually topic is "ukraine on the brink of civil war".
USA gets brought in over that fact of how 2 faced it would be for USA or UK or even EU to demand sanctions or Putin be brought for war crimes.
we are still missing a war, so far for now and the only ones I can see still trying to push seems to be us.
Putin has already made his move and hasn't gone any further (yet).
Surely making sure it doesn't go further would be top priority.

Still the Ukraine government is one very corrupt entity, lost on why supporting this helps those supporters who been fighting and dying to get corruption out of their system.

1. Putin isn't guilty of war crimes.
2. American hypocrisy is irrelevant and off topic.

spank_inferno

This "whataboutery" is going nowhere.

Jonny7

1997 archived NYtimes article on the agreement signed between Russian and Ukraine over Crimea - and subsequent leasing of the port

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/01/world/setting-past-aside-russia-and-ukraine-sign-friendship-treaty.html

It's quite clear that Russia is breaking this agreement and the restrictions of the lease

Godge

robindch wrote: »

From what you've written in this post alone -- let alone your previous outings -- I don't believe you have the faintest understanding of Russia, Ukraine or Crimea, of international law, of dispute resolution, of diplomacy, of the OSCE and the role of observers, the "western" media, nor of any of people, the politics or the institutions involved in any of this hideous, constructed mess.

I have absolutely no idea why you are discussing this topic.

That is an understatement.

S.R. wrote: »

Honestly, man, you need a help.
Putin must be brought to court? What about fellow Irishman Clinton? What about Bush?
Oh, no, Clinton wasn't killing serbian civil population with his bombs. He was teaching them democracy. American democracy. Besides, he has Irish roots, we should give him a discount.
And Bush was not killing people of Iraq, he was protecting world from Saddam, who had nuclear and chemical weapons. One day Colin Powell demonstrated that weapon at UN. :rolleyes:
Neo-nazis are only minority? Well organized minority rule unorganized majority. Have you never heard this? This so called minority are grandsons of ukranian fascists of WW2. Have you heard about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

The very same people, the very same organization from the very same parts of Western Ukraine.

Great to come along here every day to learn what the latest American atrocity is:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

S.R.

Jonny7 wrote: »

1997 archived NYtimes article on the agreement signed between Russian and Ukraine over Crimea - and subsequent leasing of the port

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/01/world/setting-past-aside-russia-and-ukraine-sign-friendship-treaty.html

It's quite clear that Russia is breaking this agreement and the restrictions of the lease

Agreements, laws......))

Some people are still in dream land. Look at what has happened in world for last 25 years and please stop dreaming.

The break-up of USSR was an unlawful act too, that has lead to today's situation in Crimea, Eastern Ukraine and Kiev. How many people here did protest against it?

bobcoffee

actually Iwasfrozen you keep jumping in on conversations and not even try and add the ones before it.

"American hypocrisy is irrelevant and off topic"
Calling something irrelevant and off topic to other people's points is getting a bit old.
either follow the conversation or don't.

You know why SR was mentioning others as it is and was relevant to the conversation at hand.
Unless discussing politics around Ukraine and those involved is off topic then I'm clearly in the wrong place.

Is this what happens all the time, people make valid points, on comes the typical taking quotes and points out of context and put in the usual off topic nonsense to = a win.

Lost on how USA and UK and EU supporting Ukraine is off topic or any points around it, of course discussing them is one thing but using them as points is just using them as points and as long as there is some relevance to the issue at hand which is Ukraine and not Russia in Crimea I'm lost on why some don't see it as trying to derail threads.

S.R.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

1. Putin isn't guilty of war crimes.
2. American hypocrisy is irrelevant and off topic.

Not only American hypocrisy is irrelevant, but also Americans themselves are irrelevant. They have nothing to do with Crimea.
Unless there are new historical facts. :rolleyes:

K-9

bobcoffee wrote: »

actually topic is "ukraine on the brink of civil war".
USA gets brought in over that fact of how 2 faced it would be for USA or UK or even EU to demand sanctions or Putin be brought for war crimes.

Mod:

Yep, it's two faced and hypocritical for the US and UK to preach too much.

That point has been hammered over and over and over and over at this stage. Everybody is aware of it, Iraq wasn't a popular war publicly and that includes on boards.ie.

So, this is a politics board, you have more than made your point at this stage, as have others.

As a mod, I am asking you for the last time to not comment on what is on topic or not. It is not your place to do so, it is for mods to decide that, mods who are users who have a general feeling and experience for the board built over a number of years.

Mods have posted polite requests to keep on topic and not focus too much on the US, posters are free to start new threads if they want a more general discussion on Western hypocrisy.

K-9

Mod:

Off topic posts deleted, back to discussing the topic please.

S.R.

spank_inferno wrote: »

.
Russia currently occupies 3 former soviet states.

Which ones?

spank_inferno wrote: »

Putin won't risk a war he would almost certainly lose.

What country is going to fight him? Ireland?

aloyisious

On the thread topic of whether the Ukraine is on the brink of Civil War, one definition of that is a military conflict that break's out within a country where two sides differ over government policies.

In this case, I don't think civil war or even secession apply, as there's a third party (a regional power) directly involved militarily, having it's troops off base and on the ground within the country in turmoil. I doubt if former President Yanukovych thought things would get so out of hand over his handling of affairs, and I'm fairly sure that Moscow was not unprepared for all eventualities. For all intents and purposes. it's a coup d'etat Soviet-fraternal style.

Edit: if push comes to shove, and Putin goes outside the Crimean borders, then it might end up in an East/West Berlin type situation, with what was left of the Ukraine being supported by the West and Crimea by Russia, each side at tank-barrel distance. So far (as far as I know/read) there's been no military call-up, though Russia had some troops on manoeuvre near the national border last week. They would be ready for field Ops.