Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Harold Weiss

You're more likely to see terrorist attacks / guerrilla warfare carried out against Russian military in the near future. It will most likely be Tatars (Sunni Muslims) that mount attacks on Russia with full support of the west...

What you won't be told is who is facilitating those attacks with money/weapons and logistics like Islamic militants in Syria.

You might hear of Saudi Arabia mentioned but the House Of Saud are just flunkies for the real power structure in US/EU.

robindch

robindch wrote: »

Once the Russian Army shows up, pro-unity Ukrainians will be regarded as a treasonous threat and will, for their own good, be well-advised to leave Crimea. It's soft ethnic cleansing, though Putin will be happy to do the hard kind as well.

Ah, I see it's happening already:

"Tatars of Crimea evacuate women and children"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ukrainian/politics/2014/03/140309_crimea_tatars_escape_yg.shtml

Elmer Blooker

Things have really quietened down on the Ukrainian front, it's not really big news now and we can't have that can we?
Watch how the war of propaganda and lies gets cranked up by NATO.
I'm expecting stuff like - "Russian fighters close to Latvian/Estonian/Lithuanian airspace" (tiny vulnerable and helpless countries ) or "Russian warships close to Turkish territorial waters" ( which the Russian Black Sea fleet has been doing since Tsarist times :rolleyes: )

aloyisious

Ousted leader Viktor Yanukovich insisted on Tuesday that he remained Ukraine's legitimate president and commander-in-chief, saying he would return to Kiev and appealing to the armed forces to defy any "criminal orders" handed down by his foes.
"I am certain the officers and soldiers of Ukraine ... know what you are worth and will not carry out your criminal orders," said Yanukovich, who claims opposition forces shot police and civilians during protests that led to his downfall. Source:Irish Indo.

aloyisious

Harold Weiss wrote: »

You're more likely to see terrorist attacks / guerrilla warfare carried out against Russian military in the near future. It will most likely be Tatars (Sunni Muslims) that mount attacks on Russia with full support of the west...

What you won't be told is who is facilitating those attacks with money/weapons and logistics like Islamic militants in Syria.

You might hear of Saudi Arabia mentioned but the House Of Saud are just flunkies for the real power structure in US/EU.

Just one word on the Russian economy: Gas

constance tench

"Are you blinded by what is happening?
Have you lost your memory?
Have you forgotten what fascism is?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDAndXulEoY

robindch

constance tench wrote: »

Have you forgotten what fascism is?

He'll learn about it quick enough where he is now.

bobcoffee

well google translate ain't as bad as it once was.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ukrainian/politics/2014/03/140309_crimea_tatars_escape_yg.shtml

Against the background of the conflict in the Crimea, which began after the decision of the Council of Federation of the possibility of the introduction of Russian troops on the peninsula , some Crimean Tatars began to leave the ARC.
However, in case we are not talking about mass evacuation , but rather the removal of Crimea women and children. The vast majority of Crimean Tatar men , strongly and do not intend to leave the region .
On the train coming from Kyiv Crimea , dominated by passengers traveling in their everyday affairs. Interlocutor BBC Ukraine , who works in Simferopol and arrived in Kyiv on vacation , told that the general situation in the Crimea " normal, Ukrainian flags hanging ." According to him , the Crimea is Russian, but he did not personally encountered harassment or aggression on their part.
However, to get more Kyiv Crimean Tatars, whose tense situation on the peninsula and the presence of Russian troops forced to flee their homes and seek refuge in the capital. According to a report posted on the website of state frontier service of Ukraine " for the last day ( March 9. - Ed.) From Crimea prosliduvalo 265 people , the vast majority of them are Crimean Tatars ." Some have felt the effects of the Crimean conflict itself.

Resident Crimea Ukraine Mykola told the BBC that directly confronted with manifestations of aggression "n" . He said the company in Yalta , where he worked, were forced to close after it got "men in leather jackets , back on which was written" Moscow " , and expel workers from the facility.

As a result , according to Mr. Nicholas, the company was evacuated along with all the equipment and the leader said all 36 employees that they "better go ." Mr. Nicholas said that soon return to Crimea he is going.
Alme brought to Kyiv grandson

Another interviewee BBC Ukraine , Crimean Tatar yim'ya in Alma, said that was brought to Kyiv grandson while she is going to immediately go back to her husband. According to her, in case of "the whole region occupied by Russian troops, some self-defense fighters , armed to the teeth ", but still no contractions were not.

Meanwhile Mrs. Alme said she personally did not face with any signs of aggression or distress, but added that " Feodosiya always go the route armored ." According to women, the majority of Crimean Tatars are not going to leave the peninsula , however many of them where possible seek to remove children from the Crimea .
Help people of Kiev

A representative of the Public Association " Sabir " (translated - " patience." - Ed.) Heide Rizayeva BBC confirmed Ukraine , which is the case of the Crimean Tatars are taken from the peninsula mostly women and children.

"Men are left there ( in the Crimea. - Ed. ). Firstly , the Crimean Tatars - a very warlike nation , they do not leave the territory of Crimea. Basically trying to leave women with children. Again, fearing bloodshed or provocation by the other nations , including Russia " , - said Mrs. Rizayeva .
and according to activists , their organization holds shares in Kyiv to attract public attention to the situation in which the Crimean Tatars were a result of the conflict on the peninsula. Ms. Rizayeva says many people of Kiev responded to their call for help.

" We have been established appropriate action , March 8, a lot of people came and we took their phone numbers. Approximately 400 Crimean Tatars today Kiev ready a shelter , place to help financially , clothing , food , etc. " - says Ms. Heide . She said the organization coordinates its actions with the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people.

Earlier, former Chairman of Mejlis Mustafa Jemilev said that the Crimean Tatars now take a wait , but the peace of autonomy is very unstable:

"Crimean Tatars occupy a wait. Because we understand that the occupation forces need a reason , saying that offend the Russians " these bloodthirsty Tartars ", so we have to put troops" - quoted by UNIAN policy .

In the case of the Crimean Tatars in Kyiv station comes relatively few. However koflikt Crimea continues, and until the situation on the peninsula will remain tense, it is possible that this number of trains from the peninsula to the capital and other Ukrainian cities will increase.

realweirdo

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Things have really quietened down on the Ukrainian front, it's not really big news now and we can't have that can we?
Watch how the war of propaganda and lies gets cranked up by NATO.
I'm expecting stuff like - "Russian fighters close to Latvian/Estonian/Lithuanian airspace" (tiny vulnerable and helpless countries ) or "Russian warships close to Turkish territorial waters" ( which the Russian Black Sea fleet has been doing since Tsarist times :rolleyes: )

I think we know which side you are on don't we! If you think the Russians are better than Nato or anyone else, you are sadly mistaken in that. At least Putin is decisive I will give him that. One of the reasons Forbes named him as the most powerful man in the world last year.

sopretty

realweirdo wrote: »

Forbes named him as the most powerful man in the world last year.

Probably went to his head.

renegademaster

realweirdo wrote: »

Forbes named him as the most powerful man in the world last year.

and the year before that too iirc

Harold Weiss

robindch wrote: »

Ah, I see it's happening already:

"Tatars of Crimea evacuate women and children"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ukrainian/politics/2014/03/140309_crimea_tatars_escape_yg.shtml

I never really gave thought to the idea US had always predicted Russia would take Crimea and end up in a battle with Tatars (Sunni Muslims) backed by Saudi Arabia.

That might just be a big mistake by Putin. There could be some compromise between US and Russia over what happens to rest of Ukraine.

S.R.

What an irony!)))

In 2007 Arseniy Yatsenyuk, a newly appointed Prime-Minister of Ukraine and one of leaders of Maidan, was appointed as Minister for Foreign Affairs of Ukraine. In same 2007 Arseniy Yatsenyuk supported independence of Kosovo at meeting with President of Kosovo Fatmir Sejdiu.
Ha-ha, history always haunts us, Arseniy, don't you know? Double standards and hipocrisy - I am not surprised taking into account that USA and their servants are your teachers, Arsenyi.

Elmer Blooker

realweirdo wrote: »

I think we know which side you are on don't we! If you think the Russians are better than Nato or anyone else, you are sadly mistaken in that. At least Putin is decisive I will give him that. One of the reasons Forbes named him as the most powerful man in the world last year.

I am highly suspicious of NATO's motives.
All of this reminds me of exactly a century ago when Europe went to war "protecting" small nations. Russia went to war with Austria to "protect" Serbia and Britain went to war with Germany to "protect" Belgium (in Ireland it was little Catholic Belgium to recruit cannon fodder) when in fact Britain was only interested in protecting her empire from Germany who wanted a share of Africa. One hundred years later NATO (the US) is deliberately heightening tension in Eastern Europe, all done to "protect" the three Baltic republics, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia of course. ( **** the EU )
Where is the evidence that Russia wants to invade the three Baltic republics?
There isn't any - they have been independent for over twenty years and if they haven't done it by now they are not going to and Putin is not that mad that he would invade NATO members.
Worrying times ahead as the US is determined to start another cold war - a war, even a cold one is good for business!!

bobcoffee

some people have pointed out how much Russian military complex has declined over the last while.
can't say the same for NATO.

spank_inferno

bobcoffee wrote: »

some people have pointed out how much Russian military complex has declined over the last while.
can't say the same for NATO.

NATO spent 11 times more than Russia on military.

Staggering level of waste though.

Dannyboy83

Former US Ambassador to Russia says

https://twitter.com/McFaul
"I did RT in the past. But lately I find the the gross distortion of facts on RT to be too much. @MBuinovskaya_RT @DianeDobrski"

Marina Buinovskaya, Produce at Russia Today ‏

https://twitter.com/MBuinovskaya_RT
@MBuinovskaya_RT Media war taking its toll - extremely difficult to book guests on any topic now!

It seems the Americans now regard Russia Today as nothing more than outright propaganda

http://americanthinker.com/2014/03/uproar_at_russia_today.html
Any entity with a different attitude quickly finds itself under siege. For example, the Russian newswire service RIA Novosti is now in the final phases of liquidation the Kremlin found its reporting too much like actual journalism and not enough like Simonyan’s brand of patriotism.

What amazes me time and time again is the inability of the Russian population to criticize their own leaders/policy.
I'm imagine Fianna Fail look at Russia with pure envy and lust.

Having said that however, when you see the astonishing murder rate of journalists in Russia, that questions tends to answer itself

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/mar/11/putin-win-russian-free-press
In 2011, three journalists dead (including newspaper editor Khadzhimurad Kamalov, shot 14 times as he left his office). In 2010, two killed; in 2009, five more (including a young reporter from Novaya Gazeta, caught in a hail of bullets). Add four for 2008, one in 2007 and then 2006 as Anna Politkovskaya, the most famous victim of them all, is murdered. But she wouldn't forget Yevgeny Gerasimenko – found in his Saratov flat with a plastic bag pulled over his head and computer missing – and nor should we.

Two Russian journalists died in 2005, and three in both 2004 and 2003; but 2002 was a wicked year, with eight lost (including Valery Ivanov, battling editor, shot in the head) and 2001 added another victim. Putin's reign of power in 2000 began with six dead reporters and editors: a grim portent, looking back, of bad things to come.

There are other countries in the world where journalists repeatedly perish in the course of duty, to be sure: Pakistan, Afghanistan, Colombia, Mexico. And Russia has terrorists and rebellions of its own to deal with as well. But the drip, drip, drip of journalists' blood, year in and year out, crimes scantily investigated and rarely brought to any conclusion, is still deeply dismaying.

bobcoffee

Russia is a crazy country, full of "crazy russians".
while I'm sure Putin has killed a few, plenty of Journalists die to criminals and lunatics in their own country around the world.

Edit: after reading the quotes above I'm going to add this... how is that not propaganda "There are other countries in the world where journalists repeatedly perish in the course of duty, to be sure: Pakistan, Afghanistan, Colombia, Mexico. And Russia has terrorists and rebellions of its own to deal with as well"

can anyone name a country that shouldn't be on that list?

Dannyboy83

bobcoffee wrote: »

Russia is a crazy country, full of "crazy russians".
while I'm sure Putin has killed a few, plenty of Journalists die to criminals and lunatics in their own country around the world.

Edit: after reading the quotes above I'm going to add this... how is that not propaganda "There are other countries in the world where journalists repeatedly perish in the course of duty, to be sure: Pakistan, Afghanistan, Colombia, Mexico. And Russia has terrorists and rebellions of its own to deal with as well"

can anyone name a country that shouldn't be on that list?

You're asking the wrong question tho.

The correct question is -
Why are the Russians not capable of self-assessment?

As I've said before in this thread, my partner is Russian and I've asked her numerous times, why she is incapable of standing back, looking at the bigger picture and assessing the situation for what it is?
Her answer, like that of many other Russians "Because I am a Russian Patriot".


What is different about European mentality and Russian mentality, that allows us to criticize our own leadership and policy, but yet makes the same action impossible in Russia?

Is it mentality? Is it intimidation?

I've noticed this same mentality in effect in jingoistic British people, who repeat the mantra 'Our Boys', like brain washed sheep, referring to British soldiers. It's a pretty good indicator that independent thinking has ceased, and the herd mind has emerged.

Fianna Fail were torn asunder by their own supporters post-crisis.
In contrast, Putin's popularity rating has actually increased since the crisis, despite losing the Ukraine and committing a massive political and economic blunder - which was utterly avoidable.


Why do many Americans claim the CIA killed Michael Hastings, or the war in Iraq was oil driven, or that 9/11 was an inside job - yet there are no major Russian media outlets even offering a balanced perspective, not to mind an opposing perspective on events which involve Russia?

It reminds me of a famous Bruce Lee quote

To reach the masses, some sort of big organization (whether) domestic and foreign branch affiliation, is not necessary. To reach the growing number of students, some sort of pre-conformed set must be established as standards for the branch to follow. As a result all members will be conditioned according to the prescribed system. Many will probably end up as a prisoner of a systematized drill.
Styles tend to not only separate men - because they have their own doctrines and then the doctrine became the gospel truth that you cannot change.

Elmer Blooker

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Former US Ambassador to Russia says
‏

.............. another former US ambassador George Kennan, now deceased said in 1987 before the break up of the Soviet Union

Were the Soviet Union to sink tomorrow under the waters of the ocean, the American military-industrial establishment would have to go on, substantially unchanged, until some other adversary could be invented. Anything else would be an unacceptable shock to the American economy.

Putin is the "some other adversary" Before that Bin Laden was an adversary but they couldn't find him in the mountains of Afghanistan, so former ally Saddam Hussein became an adversary by connecting him to 9/11 which were blatant lies.

Dannyboy83

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

.............. another former US ambassador George Kennan, now deceased said in 1987 before the break up of the Soviet Union


Putin is the "some other adversary" Before that Bin Laden was an adversary but they couldn't find him in the mountains of Afghanistan, so former ally Saddam Hussein became an adversary by connecting him to 9/11 which were blatant lies.

I'll address that in a second, but that doesn't answer the question.

The question I would like answered is why the Russians are incapable of self-assessment?
Ignore the errors and crimes committed by other nations - why can the Russians not examine or criticize their own leaders or policies?
How does the UK manage to vote NO to Syrian intervention?


Regarding the quote - I don't actually think that theory is terribly inaccurate, it's just that it doesn't work in this situation, because it supposes that the Taliban have been defeated.
They haven't.
The US say it themselves:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/10420785/US-let-Taliban-come-back-from-defeat-says-top-envoy.html



War on Terror - still ongoing
US Main adversary - Still the Taliban, not Russia

Futhermore, the dispute with Russia actually complicates the situation for the USA.
They rely on Russian permission to support their armies in Afghanistan.
They also rely on Russian Soyuz craft for their space missions.

And don't forget, Russia suffered 30+ terrorist attacks last year. The Taliban are a mutual enemy of both parties.

sopretty

Dannyboy - I think it's a media issue over there, coupled with a fierce loyalty, stemming from generations of a sort of institutionalisation of citizens.
While I, as an Irish person, will question internal affairs here, by golly do I suddenly become fiercely patriotic when criticised by an outsider on an individual basis.
I believe our media here now, is slightly more global too. We're not entirely under the reign of a Catholic Church. We've grown up and become adults now. Perhaps it will happen for Russians too in time, but it's a bit like family - 'It's fine for me to give out about my mother - but if YOU insult my mother, then we'll take this outside....'.

S.R.

sopretty wrote: »

We've grown up and become adults now. Perhaps it will happen for Russians too in time

Oh, no! God forbid Russians from this!

S.R.

What about you? Marching on Shakhtar Donetsk?

sopretty

S.R. wrote: »

What about you? Marching on Shakhtar Donetsk?

No, it's the Malaysians that I have under my radar today. Which is more than can be said for them!

bobcoffee

Dannyboy I'm not allowed to answer you back because of certain restrictions with in this thread to avoid derailment.

I'm lost on why you don't see it as the same for us, we only change after a "sinking ship" moment or whistle blowers.
Your GF might feel like she is backed into a corner with all the propaganda floating around us.
Not saying your point is wrong at all, just we are not as different as you think, just we accept different kinds of corruption.

Eggy Baby!

The question I would like answered is why the Russians are incapable of self-assessment?
Ignore the errors and crimes committed by other nations - why can the Russians not examine or criticize their own leaders or policies?
How does the UK manage to vote NO to Syrian intervention?

I assume you are acquainted with every single Russian in order to make such a sweeping, general statement?

S.R.

sopretty wrote: »

No, it's the Malaysians that I have under my radar today. Which is more than can be said for them!

ye, I agree, it's sad for them.

Dannyboy83

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

I assume you are acquainted with every single Russian in order to make such a sweeping, general statement?

There is this thing - it is used to extrapolate - it's called an opinion poll.

Here is an example:

Putin's approval rating in Russia sets new record
06.03.2014 | Source: Pravda.Ru

(Reminds me of the story about North Korea landing on the sun:D

I wonder what percentage of Gay people support Putin now, that didn't 2 years ago?:rolleyes:



Here is another example for you:

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...ns-332470.html
Europe is favored by 39 percent of Ukrainians, and 37 percent prefer the Customs Union, said the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology.

Some 76 percent of the Ukrainians polled in the middle of this November said they were ready to take part in a referendum on the foreign policy vector.

Same as before, the European Union is mostly chosen over the Customs Union in the western and central regions (69 percent vs. 11 percent and 43 percent vs. 27 percent), while the Customs Union is more popular in the southern and eastern regions (51 percent vs. 29 percent and 61 percent vs. 15 percent).

Similar with the poll of this September, the entry into the EU mostly gained the support of young Ukrainians (52% of the respondents aged from 18 to 29 and 41 percent of the respondents aged from 30 to 39), while the Customs Union is favored by older citizens (41 percent of the respondents aged from 50 to 59, 42% of the respondents aged from 60 to 69, and 48 percent of the respondents older than 70).

Dannyboy83

bobcoffee wrote: »

Dannyboy I'm not allowed to answer you back because of certain restrictions with in this thread to avoid derailment.

I'm lost on why you don't see it as the same for us, we only change after a "sinking ship" moment or whistle blowers.
Your GF might feel like she is backed into a corner with all the propaganda floating around us.
Not saying your point is wrong at all, just we are not as different as you think, just we accept different kinds of corruption.

Personally I feel Nationalism is for fools, but many Irish people are nationalists, and can still acknowledge the failings of the various Irish governments.

I know when Irish governments are at their worst, it's tempting to say that we're no different.
I know because I've made that mistake myself in the past.

But
There is no Irish equivalent to Anna Politkovskaya.
You cannot murder journalists without consequence in this country
(Arguably you can bug Garda ombudsman's phones)

There is no Irish equivalent to Alexander Litvenienko.
You cannot murder Former FSB agents who write about False Flag operations
(Arguably you can arm terrorists and go on to lead the country)

There is no Irish equivalent to Mikhail Khordovsky.
You cannot imprison the political opposition or those who fund it in this country.
(Arguably even when they are guilty of crimes! Thanks Tribunal!)


I love the Russian language, and Russian culture. But I'm not under any illusions about the state of the corruption and the jingoism/xenophobia which permeates the culture.

The irony of the Russians calling the Ukranians fascists, is that Moscow has the largest neo-nazi problem on the planet, with racially motivated murders every single month!

Where is the Irish Nikolai Girenko, Timur Kacharava, Stanislav Markelov, Anastasia Baburova, Ivan Khutorskoy?

Does that mean the Russians are fascists? No, it does not. It means that the Russian have fascists among them, just like the Ukranians have.