Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

S.R.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Personally I feel Nationalism is for fools, but many Irish people are nationalists, and can still acknowledge the failings of the various Irish governments.

I know when Irish governments are at their worst, it's tempting to say that we're no different.
I know because I've made that mistake myself in the past.

But
There is no Irish equivalent to Anna Politkovskaya.
You cannot murder journalists without consequence in this country
(Arguably you can bug Garda ombudsman's phones)

There is no Irish equivalent to Alexander Litvenienko.
You cannot murder Former FSB agents who write about False Flag operations
(Arguably you can arm terrorists and go on to lead the country)

There is no Irish equivalent to Mikhail Khordovsky.
You cannot imprison the political opposition or those who fund it in this country.
(Arguably even when they are guilty of crimes! Thanks Tribunal!)


I love the Russian language, and Russian culture. But I'm not under any illusions about the state of the corruption and the jingoism/xenophobia which permeates the culture.

The irony of the Russians calling the Ukranians fascists, is that Moscow has the largest neo-nazi problem on the planet, with racially motivated murders every single month!

Where is the Irish Nikolai Girenko, Timur Kacharava, Stanislav Markelov, Anastasia Baburova, Ivan Khutorskoy?

Does that mean the Russians are fascists? No, it does not. It means that the Russian have fascists among them, just like the Ukranians have.

I am laughing. It's funny.

bobcoffee

Most of our journalists shut up and rarely speak unless told to (my opinion)
Some do get opinionated but in this country we don't really stand up to anything, there is not a real "mob mentality" in this country at all.
For me and during my life time the only time I can think of a real mod mentality was back in the 90's of Dublin were, Parents, IRA and other types banded together and pushed out "drug pushers" in their area.
Not the most colorful times ofc.
There is a woman in Ireland, who is old and dying of cancer, while still being locked up in jail over clashes in Shanon Airport.
protesting over American Army in our country which does validate our neutrality and do believe it is illegal in our constitution. I would call her a political prisoner.

So it is not surprising that Russia has these people, once again I'm not trying to support putin at all btw.
Just discussing the "hardline pro russian" mentality that Putin gets to exploit.
To be Russian is to put up with lots of confusion and hate from the western side of things, rather it being exact fact it is there hanging over their heads.
Is there some decent enough evidence that those people were after Putin at the time, I don't mean in court proof but that was the general direction at the time.
Plenty of nasty criminals in that country that those journalists could have been after and died from.

While we do benefit from a "seems" nicer government and less political harassment, were not as passionate as the Russian can be.

Dannyboy83

S.R. wrote: »

I am laughing. It's funny.

yet unable to rebut anything.

We noticed.

Dannyboy83

bobcoffee wrote: »

Most of our journalists shut up and rarely speak unless told to (my opinion)
Some do get opinionated but in this country we don't really stand up to anything, there is not a real "mob mentality" in this country at all.
For me and during my life time the only time I can think of a real mod mentality was back in the 90's of Dublin were, Parents, IRA and other types banded together and pushed out "drug pushers" in their area.
Not the most colorful times ofc.
There is a woman in Ireland, who is old and dying of cancer, while still being locked up in jail over clashes in Shanon Airport.
protesting over American Army in our country which does validate our neutrality and do believe it is illegal in our constitution. I would call her a political prisoner.

So it is not surprising that Russia has these people, once again I'm not trying to support putin at all btw.
Just discussing the "hardline pro russian" mentality that Putin gets to exploit.
To be Russian is to put up with lots of confusion and hate from the western side of things, rather it being exact fact it is there hanging over their heads.
Is there some decent enough evidence that those people were after Putin at the time, I don't mean in court proof but that was the general direction at the time.
Plenty of nasty criminals in that country that those journalists could have been after and died from.

While we do benefit from a "seems" nicer government and less political harassment, were not as passionate as the Russian can be.

Oh, I'm completely on your side where crappy journalism is concerned.
It's almost a forgotten art-form at this stage.
The media are supposed to be the Fourth Estate

Could you imagine a Watergate or the Pentagon Papers in this day and age?



Instead we have Wikileaks to fill the void which the media are no longer capable of doing - and people such as Edward Snowden have to lay it on the line.

The point is tho - if someone like Carole Coleman does actually feel like asking George Bush where the weapons of mass destruction are, on national TV, she doesn't need to worry about turning up dead as a result of it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-cohen/bushs-banned-interview-an_b_111804.html

In Russia, 4 journalists working for Novaya Gazeta alone have been murdered since 2006.

The Kremlin control the media with an IRON grip. Berezovsky and co taught Putin the importance of the media.

p.s.
For a good laugh, look up the clip of where Vladimir and Ludmilla announce their divorce.
It's so laughably staged - no journalist in their right mind would ask such a potentially embarassing question unless they had a death wish!


p.p.s
I will guarantee you, a lot of those who are defending Russia in this thread - even those who CLAIM to be Russian - have never even been to Russia.
They are Baltic Russians. That's like someone from Belfast trying to tell you about life in Glasgow! LOL!
They are plastic Russians.

The Russians themselves are generally more balanced that the plastic Russians ime.

S.R.

Moderator, where is my link for Dannyboy83!?

S.R.

Black Swan, u r wanker! My video about Khodorkovsky is off-topic but Dannyboy's post with Khodorkovsky, Litvinenkjo and Politkovskaya is not?!?!?!

S.R.

****ing joke are this forum and mods!

S.R.

Gives me a red card for video with Khodorkovsky, when others are ok to mention him here!

Black Swan

S.R. wrote: »

Moderator, where is my link for Dannyboy83!?

S.R. wrote: »

Black Swan, u r wanker! My video about Khodorkovsky is off-topic but Dannyboy's post with Khodorkovsky, Litvinenkjo and Politkovskaya is not?!?!?!

S.R. wrote: »

****ing joke are this forum and mods!

S.R. wrote: »

Gives me a red card for video with Khodorkovsky, when others are ok to mention him here!

MOD: You had been red card infracted earlier for discussing moderation in-thread, but you ignored this mod instruction. If you have an issue with moderation, you are to PM the moderator on this forum, and most forums within boards.ie. Banned 1-month.

Nodin

Anyhoo - Putin to annex Crimea/Crimea to 'declare Independence' with possible land corridor. EU/West to be publically fist waving while glad he hasn't gone for splitting Ukraine in two. What do yez think?

Dannyboy83

Nodin wrote: »

Anyhoo - Putin to annex Crimea/Crimea to 'declare Independence' with possible land corridor. EU/West to be publically fist waving while glad he hasn't gone for splitting Ukraine in two. What do yez think?

Yep, I guess similar.


All parties are getting nervous about the ongoing Russian economic collapse, obviously Russia in particular - they know they can't possibly win an economic war of attrition against the EU or US, not to mind combined forces.


Russia forced to cancel bond auction
http://stream.wsj.com/story/latest-headlines/SS-2-63399/SS-2-478129/

MOSCOW—Russia has had to cancel a treasury bond auction on Wednesday for the second week in a row because of unfavorable market conditions, the finance ministry said Tuesday.

Developments in Ukraine had a substantial negative impact on Russian markets, sending the ruble to all-time lows last week.

Over $100 billion now lost off the stock market
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/140306142819-russia-stock-market-620xa.png


Ruble is now at 36.44 per Dollar, down 9% against the dollar so far this year and still sliding

EU approves framework for asset freezes, travel bans on Russia
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/12/us-ukraine-eu-russia-sanctions-idUSBREA2B0QJ20140312

Russia Threatens to Impose Sanctions On U.S. Corporations
http://www.globalresearch.ca/russia-threatens-to-impose-sanctions-on-u-s-corporations/5372904?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=russia-threatens-to-impose-sanctions-on-u-s-corporations

Russians are splitting on the military draft:


Putin might be back for Paltava and the other Russian population centres at a later date, but I think this is the end of the conflict (there is going to be an increase in terror attacks I'm guessing tho)

aloyisious

Nodin wrote: »

Anyhoo - Putin to annex Crimea/Crimea to 'declare Independence' with possible land corridor. EU/West to be publically fist waving while glad he hasn't gone for splitting Ukraine in two. What do yez think?

Tut tut, the notion that politicians etc would be base enough to act by words alone and "sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." :mad:

aloyisious

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Yep, I guess similar.


All parties are getting nervous about the ongoing Russian economic collapse, obviously Russia in particular - they know they can't possibly win an economic war of attrition against the EU or US, not to mind combined forces.


Russia forced to cancel bond auction
http://stream.wsj.com/story/latest-headlines/SS-2-63399/SS-2-478129/


Over $100 billion now lost off the stock market
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/140306142819-russia-stock-market-620xa.png


Ruble is now at 36.44 per Dollar, down 9% against the dollar so far this year and still sliding

EU approves framework for asset freezes, travel bans on Russia
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/12/us-ukraine-eu-russia-sanctions-idUSBREA2B0QJ20140312

Russia Threatens to Impose Sanctions On U.S. Corporations
http://www.globalresearch.ca/russia-threatens-to-impose-sanctions-on-u-s-corporations/5372904?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=russia-threatens-to-impose-sanctions-on-u-s-corporations

Russians are splitting on the military draft:


Putin might be back for Paltavel and the other Russian population centres at a later date, but I think this is the end of the conflict (there is going to be an increase in terror attacks I'm guessing tho)

Breadline queues in Moscow liable to cause unrest amongst the proletariat?

spank_inferno

Its a good post illustrating how Russia are nowhere as strong as people assume they are.

For Putin I think its now about quiet consolidation....
The Russian economy cannot handle the rapid aggression of a fortnight ago.

Elmer Blooker

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Things have really quietened down on the Ukrainian front, it's not really big news now and we can't have that can we?
Watch how the war of propaganda and lies gets cranked up by NATO.
I'm expecting stuff like - "Russian fighters close to Latvian/Estonian/Lithuanian airspace" (tiny vulnerable and helpless countries ) or "Russian warships close to Turkish territorial waters" ( which the Russian Black Sea fleet has been doing since Tsarist times :rolleyes: )

well I was more or less right, Russian fighters are now close to Polish airspace after US fighters were sent to Poland to provoke Russia and escalate tension in the region. The American public will be told about Russian aggression but will not be told that the Russians are in fact retaliating to NATO provocation.
Censorship in the US of A is more subtle and shrewd than it is in Putin's big bad Russia.

spank_inferno

Its takes a very paranoid country to think a couple of F-16's flying around Poland constitutes aggression.

But then, our heads are buried in the sand.... Decadent western propaganda.... Blah blah...blah.

RichardoKhan

My favourite in all this is the media's lapse of memory.
Throw back a few years & we see how a concerted effort is made in the media to justify Kosovo becoming independent of Serbia. The MAIN thrust was how the majority (just) was ethnic Albanians & how they would hate to live under the Yoke of Serbian rule etc etc.
Throw forward to now. 60% Majority ethnic either first or second born Russians (Crimean AUTONOMOUS republic) want to leave Ukrainian rule & re join their Motherland & its now been touted as illegal, act of war etc etc.

Simple rule for NATO, US & EU it appears that you can have yer cake & eat it!

Dannyboy83

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

well I was more or less right, Russian fighters are now close to Polish airspace after US fighters were sent to Poland to provoke Russia and escalate tension in the region. The American public will be told about Russian aggression but will not be told that the Russians are in fact retaliating to NATO provocation.
Censorship in the US of A is more subtle and shrewd than it is in Putin's big bad Russia.

Andriy Parubiy, secretary of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council, told reporters in Kiev that Russia has deployed more than 80,000 troops, up to 270 tanks and 140 combat planes close to the border, creating the “threat of a full-scale invasion from various directions.”

Parubiy said Russian troops are based in the immediate vicinity of the Ukrainian border, some of them as close as a two- or three-hour drive from Kiev, the Ukrainian capital.

In Moscow, Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov denied a military buildup on the nearly 2,000-kilometer (1,250-mile) border.

Russian light infantry fighting vehicles drive along roads in the west Russian town of Vesyolaya Lopan
https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Lopan'/@50.3716427,36.2438754,14z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x41264a35567b39eb:0x6fc25873576aeb6e

About 8,500 Russian troops are taking part in military exercises near the border with Ukraine involving artillery and multiple rocket launchers, Reuters quoted the Russian Defence Ministry as saying on Thursday.

A statement on the ministry's website confirmed that the exercises had begun at bases in the Southern Military District but did not say how long they would last.

Jonny7

Yup Ukraine starting to bolster defenses - obviously it's purely symbolic as the massed Russian forces on the border are huge - they would roll right in any unlikely military situation

A lot of posturing

Also, the Russian economy is not strong, there is very low growth predicted over the next 3 years

Russia has a huge capital flight problem - ironically some of the sanctions/visa checks could decrease that, whilst all the nationalism and flag-waving could help growth in the short term anyway

The Moscow exchange should also bounce back

spank_inferno

Are they Russian troops & armour or are they just local civilians out for a drive with their new purchases?

Dannyboy83

aloyisious wrote: »

Breadline queues in Moscow liable to cause unrest amongst the proletariat?

Easiest way to describe this, Moscow is similar to London in that it's an insulated region, except it's much more dramatic in Russia.

Property values can be collapsing around the UK, yet London can still have a property boom.

There are swathes of Russia that don't even have street lighting, while Moscow is one of the most impressive cities in the world.

There is a big divide between Rich and poor in Ireland, imo, but it's incomparable to Eastern Europe in general, and Russia in particular.

Dannyboy83

spank_inferno wrote: »

Are they Russian troops & armour or are they just local civilians out for a drive with their new purchases?

LOL!

I'm waiting on that article from Russia Today. Any minute now...


(Russia Today will probably say they're Ukranian forces and fascist forces have begun invading poor Russia!)

spank_inferno

RichardoKhan wrote: »

My favourite in all this is the media's lapse of memory.
Throw back a few years & we see how a concerted effort is made in the media to justify Kosovo becoming independent of Serbia. The MAIN thrust was how the majority (just) was ethnic Albanians & how they would hate to live under the Yoke of Serbian rule etc etc.
Throw forward to now. 60% Majority ethnic either first or second born Russians (Crimean AUTONOMOUS republic) want to leave Ukrainian rule & re join their Motherland & its now been touted as illegal, act of war etc etc.

Simple rule for NATO, US & EU it appears that you can have yer cake & eat it!

The equivalence is false.

- Albania did not annex Kosovo
- Kosovo is a separate state, not part of the motherland Albania.
- the aggression against ethnic Albanians by Serbia was considerable. No such aggression has been excerpted by the Ukrainian state against Crimea (quite the opposite).

Jonny7

spank_inferno wrote: »

Are they Russian troops & armour or are they just local civilians out for a drive with their new purchases?

They just have to strip the badges and flags off the Sukhoi's and T72's - et voila "local militia"

Elmer Blooker

RichardoKhan wrote: »

My favourite in all this is the media's lapse of memory.
Throw back a few years & we see how a concerted effort is made in the media to justify Kosovo becoming independent of Serbia. The MAIN thrust was how the majority (just) was ethnic Albanians & how they would hate to live under the Yoke of Serbian rule etc etc.
Throw forward to now. 60% Majority ethnic either first or second born Russians (Crimean AUTONOMOUS republic) want to leave Ukrainian rule & re join their Motherland & its now been touted as illegal, act of war etc etc.

Simple rule for NATO, US & EU it appears that you can have yer cake & eat it!

Ah yes, but there's international law and there's international law. ie. we're superior in the west!
I find some of the the Freudian slips about this referendum in the news quite amusing, I've heard words like "rejoin" and "reunification" with Russia used - not really words you would associate with an illegal act. Think about it.

Nodin

spank_inferno wrote: »

Its takes a very paranoid country to think a couple of F-16's flying around Poland constitutes aggression.

But then, our heads are buried in the sand.... Decadent western propaganda.... Blah blah...blah.

O they all get paranoid when areas they consider "theirs" get ideas. Latim America in the 80's, for instance.

Nodin

Jonny7 wrote: »

They just have to strip the badges and flags off the Sukhoi's and T72's - et voila "local militia"

Laughable really. We might even get interviews with the local 65 year old greengrocer/militia pilot on RT.

Dannyboy83

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Ah yes, but there's international law and there's international law. ie. we're superior in the west!
I find some of the the Freudian slips about this referendum in the news quite amusing, I've heard words like "rejoin" and "reunification" with Russia used - not really words you would associate with an illegal act. Think about it.

I'm fully in favour of Crimea's democratic right to rejoin Russia if they choose to do so.

This more closely resembles divorce at gunpoint tho.

Crimea have refused to even allow the UN Envoy access.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=47343&Cr=Ukraine&Cr1=#.UyG4IPl_t8E
Ukraine: UN human rights envoy denied access to Crimea

Godge

spank_inferno wrote: »

Are they Russian troops & armour or are they just local civilians out for a drive with their new purchases?

The poor locals have to buy tanks instead of cars because of the risk of attack from the American imperial warmongerers.

aloyisious

Any aircraft intruding into Crimean airspace might get an adverse reaction, seeing as how the "local militia" seized control of Ukrainian anti-air missiles from one of the Ukrainian bases the week before last.