Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Dannyboy83

Violence against non-Russians in Crimea, particularly journalists, has surged:

http://www.cpj.org/2014/03/in-crimea-more-journalists-report-attacks-obstruct.php

New York, March 18, 2014--At least six journalists have been assaulted, detained, or obstructed from reporting in the southern Ukrainian autonomous republic of Crimea in the past two days, according to news reports.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/crimea-typically-a-popular-tourist-spot-turns-into-peninsula-of-violence-fear-339950.html

On March 18, Ibraim Umerov, a journalist at ATR, a Crimean Tatar channel, was brought to a hospital with a broken knee after he and a cameraman tried to film the seizure of an auto repair shop in Simferopol by a group of masked men. The men severely beat him on the spot.

http://www.channel4.com/news/russia-cctv-crimea-journalists-attacked-paramilitaries

CCTV footage has been released showing the moment a masked paramilitary holds a gun to the head of a Bulgarian journalist.

aloyisious

It's becoming more noticable that Cossacks are showing up at locations in the Crimea where Non-Government forces are being used to intimidate and subdue locals from protesting. The Cossacks have been filmed using whips on Russian citizens holding peaceful protests against the Putin Govt wihin Russia itself. It seem's they are becoming Vlad's Stormtroopers whenever he want's "deniable" work done.

comongethappy

That mob of patriots were filmed doing their thing at Sochi last month.

banimal

gandalf wrote: »

Dmitry Peskov is putting in a performance that Gerry Adams would be proud of on BBC Hardtalk at the moment. Black is white and white is black. The west need to stand up against the facist tendencies of Putin.

what about the fascist tendencies of the so called ukrainian government?

Dannyboy83

banimal wrote: »

what about the fascist tendencies of the so called ukrainian government?

There are definitely a few nasty looking characters in the Ukrainian government - I wouldn't want anything to do with them.

It's ironic that they have only come to power and remain in power as a result of continued Russian blunders and miscalculations...a video such as this would have been unfathomable 6 months ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaaDbW9mBFU#t=298

comongethappy

banimal wrote: »

what about the fascist tendencies of the so called ukrainian government?

What about the fascist tendencies of the so called Russian government?

What about the fascist tendencies of any government?

whataboutery as a form of defending wrong doing is silly.

banimal

comongethappy wrote: »

What about the fascist tendencies of the so called Russian government?

What about the fascist tendencies of any government?

whataboutery as a form of defending wrong doing is silly.

Im not defending anyone, im not dumb enough to take sides in this pile of hypocrisy

comongethappy

banimal wrote: »

Im not defending anyone

Your posts may indicate otherwise.

Scofflaw

banimal wrote: »

what about the fascist tendencies of the so called ukrainian government?

"So called Ukrainian government" does rather suggest having picked a side. While the new Ukrainian government certainly does have a fascist element in its coalition - Svoboda with quarter of the ministries plus a smaller party - it's a legally constituted government.

cordially,
Scofflaw

robindch

The recently-installed Crimean junta has announced that they're going to force ethnic Tatars off their land. While back in Moscow, the head of the Russian defence committee has said they'll be keeping the half of the Ukrainian navy that's still in Crimea.

Putin's causus belli, if anybody recalls, was to ensure the safety of minorities.

comongethappy

robindch wrote: »

The recently-installed Crimean junta has announced that they're going to force ethnic Tatars off their land. While back in Moscow, the head of the Russian defence committee has said they'll be keeping the half of the Ukrainian navy that's still in Crimea.

Putin's causus belli, if anybody recalls, was to ensure the safety of minorities.

I've no idea why the Ukrainian government didn't order their vessels sail for Odessa days ago?

Though perhaps some of the crews wish to defect to Russia..... who knows.


I assume at some points the 2 governments will come together to decide a deal on transferring assets.

robindch

comongethappy wrote: »

I've no idea why the Ukrainian government didn't order their vessels sail for Odessa days ago?

Probably because the ships in Sevastopol were blockaded by the Russian Navy while the ships in/near Myrnyi were stuck in harbour after the Russians sank a ship which blocked the entrance.

comongethappy wrote: »

I assume at some points the 2 governments will come together to decide a deal on transferring assets.

It seems more likely that the Russians will just take what they want.

renegademaster

i'm so mad i made a meme

Manach

robindch wrote: »

]the Russians sank a ship[/url] which blocked the entrance.It seems more likely that the Russians will just take what they want.

Well based on historical trends the Russian do sometimes retreat from lands taken - offhand that would be from Paris in 1814. Maybe this time they might might reach the channel.

aloyisious

robindch wrote: »

The recently-installed Crimean junta has announced that they're going to force ethnic Tatars off their land. While back in Moscow, the head of the Russian defence committee has said they'll be keeping the half of the Ukrainian navy that's still in Crimea.

Putin's causus belli, if anybody recalls, was to ensure the safety of minorities.

He's being cautious, taking it one minority at a time (ala - they came for the... and I didn't protest) :,)

Jonny7

renegademaster wrote: »

i'm so mad i made a meme

Mad at what, the lack of protest in this country or "too much" protest in another country?

gandalf

Looks like Estonia is in the crosshairs next.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA2I1J620140319?irpc=932

The West need to face this Rogue Russian State down in the strongest fashion possible.

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

Looks like Estonia is in the crosshairs next.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA2I1J620140319?irpc=932

The West need to face this Rogue Russian State down in the strongest fashion possible.

You think Russia is going to invade a NATO member?

Manach

gandalf wrote: »

Looks like Estonia is in the crosshairs next.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA2I1J620140319?irpc=932

The West need to face this Rogue Russian State down in the strongest fashion possible.

Unfortunately the term "Rogue" is a subject term that various schools of Russian ideology would not recognise. They would seem this as a return to a historical norm of Slavic oppression by non-Slavic powers (either the west or Ottomans) and as part of their divine mission, Russians would reluctantly stop these attacks on their fellow Slavs.
This would come from the Russian diplomatic play-book, circa 1840s to 1914. That last date is rather significant as it marked what some historians as the Great European Civil war. Checking the Russians is possible, but in this generation - of an inward looking and more excised on identity politics than real-politik?

Lemming

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You think Russia is going to invade a NATO member?

Ah, but you seem to forget that Russia didn't invade the Ukraine either ... *cough*

uncle_sam_ie

gandalf wrote: »

Looks like Estonia is in the crosshairs next.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA2I1J620140319?irpc=932

The West need to face this Rogue Russian State down in the strongest fashion possible.

You do know Russia has nukes right? A lot actually.

wexie

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You think Russia is going to invade a NATO member?

Of course they won't, there'll be a coup by 'Estonian Self Defence Forces'.......

gandalf

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

You do know Russia has nukes right? A lot actually.

And if they use them they'll be turned into a radioactive wasteland.

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You think Russia is going to invade a NATO member?

3 months ago I wouldn't have thought that Putin would be so crazy to invade a neighbouring country that they had friendly relations with but it has happened. If there isn't a strong reaction to this then god knows what he will use as justification to carry out his expansionist tendencies.

uncle_sam_ie

gandalf wrote: »

And if they use them they'll be turned into a radioactive wasteland.

I'm more worried about us being turned into a radioactive wasteland.

Sand

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

I'm more worried about us being turned into a radioactive wasteland.

The Russians are worried about that too. Hence they wont use their nukes.

aloyisious

If Estonia has a deal with NATO, then it's time for field exercises by MP, Logs and Medic units in areas close (20 Km) to the Estonian-Russian border, purely to try out prepared co-ordinated aid-to-civil-power plans from the filing cabinets. I would NOT recommend using units similar to the Irish Observer Corps, that might be too much of a slap-down hint. Nothing like field hospitals being set up close to a border to send a broad hint of where refugees might be moving from.

Sand

That's a little too subtle for a man whose just invaded another country and spent the intervening time playing wargames with troops and ballistic missile launchers. And it sends an ultimatum that is not credible.

Putin quite simply interprets subtle hints as weakness. And he exploits weakness. I don't think Europe has seen a major power guided by a man of his ilk for close to 80 years. Hopefully Europe doesn't make the same mistakes they did the first time around. Though in many ways, they just did.

Sand

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You think Russia is going to invade a NATO member?

What has NATO done to send a signal to Putin that they would fight to protect Estonia? Its a subtle thing but the NATO alliance doesn't automatically mean all other members will go to war to defend a member. The only promise is that the other members will consider an appeal for assistance from a member that is attacked. Putin is being given green lights across the board for aggression against his neighbours by Europe, and to a lesser extent, the USA. The EU is stating quite clearly they will not impose minor sanctions, let alone fight, for the rights of minor east European states. Countries far, far away, of which we know nothing.

gandalf

Sand wrote: »

That's a little too subtle for a man whose just invaded another country and spent the intervening time playing wargames with troops and ballistic missile launchers. And it sends an ultimatum that is not credible.

Putin quite simply interprets subtle hints as weakness. And he exploits weakness. I don't think Europe has seen a major power guided by a man of his ilk for close to 80 years. Hopefully Europe doesn't make the same mistakes they did the first time around. Though in many ways, they just did.

What is needed is the Ukraine to invite NATO to station troops on their soil to help "keep the peace". That is Putins worst nightmare and it should now be realised to show him that instead of his actions protecting "Greater Russia" it will in reality weaken them.

That coupled with stringent widespread economic sanctions. Lets not have another "Peace in our time" moment. You face down "strong men" with strength not compromise.

Dannyboy83

gandalf wrote: »

What is needed is the Ukraine to invite NATO to station troops on their soil to help "keep the peace". That is Putins worst nightmare and it should now be realised to show him that instead of his actions protecting "Greater Russia" it will in reality weaken them.

.

Putins worst nightmare is the missile shield imo, and I'm sure that is going to feature prominently in the next US election.

But the above would be a good start.