Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

simoon86

Never trust rascists, they said that the troops in Crimea were not russians and also they said that they will never attack Ukraine. Hypocrites and morons. 80% of russian population support the war against Ukraine, sociology says (that is the result of rascist propaganda).

aloyisious

T'is most extra-ordinary, Lavrov apparently in agreement with the dis-arming and dissolution of the mailitia-groups and for those who may have committed capital crimes against Ukrainian Law to be tried in court. Now if the Militia Groups won't be upset at such a deal, I'll be surprised. Imagine having put your head above the precipice in the belief that big brother would support and look after you, then to be told this.

Manach

Somehow I see any crimes be shelved for lack of evidence and witnesses if that should try to come to pass. It is one thing to process criminal proceedings during a normal state of affairs, but to move against self-declared patriots and putting them on trail for acts committed during an insurgency might end badly. 1916 springs to mind as an example.

Tzar Chasm

I'm curious about this De-escalation, al the talk is about troops in Donetsk, does this mean that the annexation of the Crimea is a Fait Acompli by Putin? or will those 'Militia' be disarmed too and the teritorial soverignty of Ukraine restored?

this strikes me as the sort of bargaining ploy a 5 year old would attempt,

Child 'I want a biscuit'
Mother 'No, you'll spoil your dinner'
Child takes all the biscuits
Mother 'give back the biscuits or else'
Child 'NomNomNom or else NomNomNom what'
Mother 'OK you can have one Biscuit'

Gael23

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2607154/Jews-ordered-register-list-property-east-Ukraine-city-Donetsk-pro-Russian-militants-taken-government-buidings.html

World War 3 here we come....

Jonny7

On paper and officially, Crimea is still an autonomous region of Ukraine - however realistically, it's now Russian territory - and will remain so, it's not an easily reversed situation for the people in Crimea should they wish to "change their mind" in several years/decades, one does not simply hold an election to cede from Moscow

Putin is very shrewd he know's he doesn't have to play by the normal rules, that's the big difference between himself and European politicians, who have their own domestic press and opposition to worry about

He's cleverly forcing Europe and the US to make efforts to divert a larger civil crisis in Ukraine by tinkering with the East of the country, it's been pumped full of "ze Nazi's are coming" propaganda for months - you only have to watch any news interviews to see how genuinely scared many locals are - and this empowers right-wing groups

Many Ukrainians identify strongly with ethnic Russians, because many directly related - so much of the current split is being artificially created. Most Ukrainians in Kiev don't have a problem with the ethnic Russians - they have a problem with their larger neighbour endlessly tinkering with their domestic issues, something we know well about

Also, Putin is not some evil maniac, he's just a shrewd politician who wants to maximise Russia's gains out of all this, like any major power, however he just holds more cards to do so - and doesn't seem overly concerned with domestic Ukrainian stability

Jonny7

ryanf1 wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2607154/Jews-ordered-register-list-property-east-Ukraine-city-Donetsk-pro-Russian-militants-taken-government-buidings.html

World War 3 here we come....

Ah I think that's been outed as fake or misreported

Iwasfrozen

Jonny7 wrote: »

Ah I think that's been outed as fake or misreported

Where?

SamHarris

simoon86 wrote: »

Never trust rascists, they said that the troops in Crimea were not russians and also they said that they will never attack Ukraine. Hypocrites and morons. 80% of russian population support the war against Ukraine, sociology says (that is the result of rascist propaganda).

I think it's also the result of the Russian national consciousness being dominated by a sense of being humiliated and victimized for the last few decades (longer?).

It is a proud country with a long past who for a long time now have been a third rate power, and the speed of their decline is increasing. Any action that is seen to increase their international prestige and pride will get a thumbs up from a great many of the population. Particularly if it seen to be against the desires of the US - the perception of being able to stand up to the worlds only superpower creates the illusion that Russia must then also be around the same level of power, regardless of the actual measurable differences in that regard.

I wonder how many their notice the irony of their anti-fascist rhetoric, given that it has many of the hallmarks of a fascist state and is continuing to develop in that direction.

SamHarris

Jonny7 wrote: »

Ah I think that's been outed as fake or misreported

I've only seen this in RT so basically it's hearsay to me at moment.

I believe though it actually has been handed out, just not by an official body (using old stamps etc). Or so the report in RT seems to say.

SamHarris

aloyisious wrote: »

T'is most extra-ordinary, Lavrov apparently in agreement with the dis-arming and dissolution of the mailitia-groups and for those who may have committed capital crimes against Ukrainian Law to be tried in court. Now if the Militia Groups won't be upset at such a deal, I'll be surprised. Imagine having put your head above the precipice in the belief that big brother would support and look after you, then to be told this.

Then again it is merely a verbal agreement as far as Russia is concerned. Time is their friend here - this way they can claim they are for Ukraine's territorial integrity but when the "militias" do not stand down and the central government their is eventually forced to act it can move in to defend them all the whilst pointing to Ukraine as an aggressor.

Then again it's becoming pretty clear that the West can do pretty massive economic damage to Russia pretty easily, that may give them pause.

S.R.

SamHarris wrote: »

I think it's also the result of the Russian national consciousness being dominated by a sense of being humiliated and victimized for the last few decades (longer?).

It is a proud country with a long past who for a long time now have been a third rate power, and the speed of their decline is increasing. Any action that is seen to increase their international prestige and pride will get a thumbs up from a great many of the population. Particularly if it seen to be against the desires of the US - the perception of being able to stand up to the worlds only superpower creates the illusion that Russia must then also be around the same level of power, regardless of the actual measurable differences in that regard.

I wonder how many their notice the irony of their anti-fascist rhetoric, given that it has many of the hallmarks of a fascist state and is continuing to develop in that direction.

What hallmarks?

Gael23

Some sources clim it is true and if so, we are looking at a real threat of WW3.

Jonny7

S.R. wrote: »

What hallmarks?

Eastern European states, ex Soviet states and Russia have a strong residual or emerging undercurrent of far-right and racist groups. In fact, Russia has more neo-nazi groups/members than anywhere else in the world

A lot of pot calling the kettle black going on

Jonny7

SamHarris wrote: »

I've only seen this in RT so basically it's hearsay to me at moment.

I believe though it actually has been handed out, just not by an official body (using old stamps etc). Or so the report in RT seems to say.

Picked up a bit of traction since

Hard to say, I'm being skeptical at the moment, but it's being examined by press outside Kiev, there's now footage of the men in balaclava's handing out the leaflets outside a synagogue
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27082878

and the transcript itself: (translated)

Respected citizens of Jewish nationality! Given that the leaders of the Jewish community of Ukraine support the Banderite junta in Kiev and are hostile to the Orthodox Donetsk Republic and its citizens, the Main Staff of the Donetsk Republic orders the following:
All citizens of Jewish nationality over the age of 16 who live on the territory of the sovereign Donetsk Republic must before May 3, 2014, appear before the Donetsk Republic commissar for nationality affairs in Room 514 of the government’s offices. The cost of registration is 50 US dollars.
In addition to the sum of 50 US dollars, those registering must bring their passports so that their religious affiliation can be entered, documents about the members of their families, and also notarized documents about all the real estate and means of transportation you own.
Those who refuse to register will be deprived of citizenship and forcibly expelled from the republic and their property will be confiscated.

Could just be the actions of a few anti-semites among the pro-Russian supporters (no shortage of them in that region) or even distributed by the other side to discredit pro-Russian groups

josip

Jonny7 wrote: »

Could just be the actions of a few anti-semites among the pro-Russian supporters (no shortage of them in that region) or even distributed by the other side to discredit pro-Russian groups

Must be untrue or black ops. No group could be that stupid.

Jonny7

josip wrote: »

Must be untrue or black ops. No group could be that stupid.

Oh I beg to differ

SamHarris

S.R. wrote: »

What hallmarks?

Pretty much the basic ones


"including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation,[6][9][10][11] and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations"

Another quote that sums it up well, and should look very familiar "a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

It's semi centralized croni-capatlism is much more like fascism, again, than a broken capitalism like some assume.

It's creation of a great enemy (the West) thats working through nefarious means to bring it down / stop them from succeeding.

Their increasing belief in the racial history and unity of Slavs, again, is pretty typical.

Increasing legislating of morality (like it's anti-gay laws).

It has far more similarities to fascism right now than it does any other system.

Just because it's people chant anti-fascist slogans does not mean it's system does cannot or does not adopt fascist traits.

Given the characteristics of the current Russian state, where would you say it lies on the political spectrum?

SamHarris

josip wrote: »

Must be untrue or black ops. No group could be that stupid.

It's hardly uncommon throughout history.

Personally, given how disorganized the response has been from the government's response has been I find it unlikely they thought this up and managed to even send a few people to do it. They have barely managed to accomplish anything else worth noting. Though it wouldn't take much, admittedly.

I'm thinking it's more likely to be a few individuals from within the pro-Russian groups that did it, though it looks pretty certain it did not have support from their leadership.

comongethappy

SamHarris wrote: »

Pretty much the basic ones


"including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation,[6][9][10][11] and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations"

Another quote that sums it up well, and should look very familiar "a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

It's semi centralized croni-capatlism is much more like fascism, again, than a broken capitalism like some assume.

It's creation of a great enemy (the West) thats working through nefarious means to bring it down / stop them from succeeding.

Their increasing belief in the racial history and unity of Slavs, again, is pretty typical.

Increasing legislating of morality (like it's anti-gay laws).

It has far more similarities to fascism right now than it does any other system.

Just because it's people chant anti-fascist slogans does not mean it's system does cannot or does not adopt fascist traits.

Given the characteristics of the current Russian state, where would you say it lies on the political spectrum?

That's pretty much on the nose.

Is there any government in Europe more right wing?

I doubt it.

Tzar Chasm

Did churchill say that fascisim would return to europe under the guise of antifascisim

SamHarris

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

Did churchill say that fascisim would return to europe under the guise of antifascisim

I'm not sure, but it's a good point regardless. I notice that despite them being described as "far left" and "far right", implying opposites, the groups are often very similar in the vast majority of ways bar the reasons for their policies, and can often shift from one to the other.

Churchill DID say that they are as different as the North and South poles. Which I like.

Iwasfrozen

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

Did churchill say that fascisim would return to europe under the guise of antifascisim

Considering the man was an aristocrat who obtained his position largely by birthright you could easily say his views were colored to say the least.

Remember this is the man who advocated to invade the Soviet Union in June 1945. Completely detached from reality.

Jonny7

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Considering the man was an aristocrat who obtained his position largely by birthright you could easily say his views were colored to say the least.

Remember this is the man who advocated to invade the Soviet Union in June 1945. Completely detached from reality.

He held his various positions by actually being in touch with what was really happening (by using a far more informed network) and not clinging to unrealistic hopes like MacDonald and the dreadful Chamberlain

Actually most of the world in the thirties were concerned with the communist emergence and rightly so - he just happened to be a step ahead with the much more pressing fascist threat. Whilst UK politicians and Europeans were busily appeasing the Nazi's and reducing the terms of the Versailles treaty (largely in order to create Germany as some sort of buffer from the Russians) - he was sticking by his guns, and despite the heavy criticism, was consistently highlighting the very obvious rearmament, virulent antisemitism and aggressive warlike nature of Germany happening under everyone's noses

A bit right-wing but very astute man - and whilst operation "unthinkable" was merely just another plan - he was again right about that threat as well, which overtook the globe as the Cold War

Ren2k7

The US has released photos proving direct Russian military involvement in Ukraine.

turnikett1

Ren2k7 wrote: »

The US has released photos proving direct Russian military involvement in Ukraine.

To be honest it's hardly a secret... Russia is only denying direct involvement for the sake of public appearance. Everyone knows the truth.

Ren2k7

turnikett1 wrote: »

To be honest it's hardly a secret... Russia is only denying direct involvement for the sake of public appearance. Everyone knows the truth.

There's a lot of people who swallow Russia's propaganda wholeheartedly, mainly the likes of "AntiWar" and other assorted far left groups.

WakeUp

Ren2k7 wrote: »

There's a lot of people who swallow Russia's propaganda wholeheartedly, mainly the likes of "AntiWar" and other assorted far left groups.

And theres a lot of people who swallow western propaganda wholeheartedly mainly the gullable slightly brainwashed types but that isnt always their fault. During times of war the ministry of truth is in total overdrive for all concerned which ever side that might be lots of conditioning and their own unique narrative. What Ive noticed about Ukraine is that the reporting is so black and white Russia v western and that cant be right its never just black and white. Propaganda is a major part of conflict and all parties involved are culpable. There has been plenty of bs from both sides some of it more blatant than others like the link Jonny posted a bit back of that guy photographed in two different places two different identities.will post this video for anyone interested in watching it is a John Pilger documentary if you have the time its worth a watch its message/content can also apply to Russian media or any media for that matter when conflict is happening. What you are seeing or are being told is not always as it is, in times of conflict the media is but another weapon for the parties concerned in pursuit of their aims. Some things are clear cut though lots of things are not.( documentary contains some graphic scenes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDutkYQF9d8

S.R.

www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/20/tactical-advantage-russian-military-shows-off-impr/?page=all#pagebreak

Excellent comment:

giltedged Mitch • 15 hours ago
Why get involved at all? Who are you anyway? God's Chosen People? Fancy starting a war, and then saying it was a mistake, hundreds of thousands of deaths later. (But we know, the real reasons in any American wars are the military industrial complex, oil and gas, the dollar as a medium of international exchange and the 1% )

As regards Ukraine, picking a country with a struggling economy, using groups of Fascists to topple an elected President, choosing a Prime Minister who isn't even an ethnic of the country, and then sending foul-mouthed ministers, vice-presidents, CIA chiefs and a posse of "lawmakers" is one sure way of not only "losing" to use your jargon, but also making yourselves looking ridiculous and even hated.You make it even worse if you send military advisers

Americans know nothing of the area. If you see an American in Kiev he stands out. He can't speak the languages, can't tell Russian from Ukrainian or Polish. Fatter, louder, even walks differently. He wouldn't understand why Russians wouldn't want to shoot Ukrainians or Ukrainians Russians, unless they were from the Fascist groupings

I am quite aware that there are quite a few Dr Strangelove in the U.S. but even they should be told gently but firmly that(a) there will not be any more American (NATO) expansion (b) that the Ukrainian rump will not join the EU. The EU people don't want it and can't afford it. and (c) the people in East Ukraine don't want to subsidize the West anymore and certainly don't want to be governed by them or by Americans.

S.R.

WakeUp wrote: »

And theres a lot of people who swallow western propaganda wholeheartedly mainly the gullable slightly brainwashed types but that isnt always their fault. During times of war the ministry of truth is in total overdrive for all concerned which ever side that might be lots of conditioning and their own unique narrative. What Ive noticed about Ukraine is that the reporting is so black and white Russia v western and that cant be right its never just black and white. Propaganda is a major part of conflict and all parties involved are culpable. There has been plenty of bs from both sides some of it more blatant than others like the link Jonny posted a bit back of that guy photographed in two different places two different identities.will post this video for anyone interested in watching it is a John Pilger documentary if you have the time its worth a watch its message/content can also apply to Russian media or any media for that matter when conflict is happening. What you are seeing or are being told is not always as it is, in times of conflict the media is but another weapon for the parties concerned in pursuit of their aims. Some things are clear cut though lots of things are not.( documentary contains some graphic scenes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDutkYQF9d8

What a great film by John Pilger! Thank you for sharing!