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Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.
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And theres a lot of people who swallow western propaganda wholeheartedly mainly the gullable slightly brainwashed types but that isnt always their fault. During times of war the ministry of truth is in total overdrive for all concerned which ever side that might be lots of conditioning and their own unique narrative. What Ive noticed about Ukraine is that the reporting is so black and white Russia v western and that cant be right its never just black and white. Propaganda is a major part of conflict and all parties involved are culpable. There has been plenty of bs from both sides some of it more blatant than others like the link Jonny posted a bit back of that guy photographed in two different places two different identities.will post this video for anyone interested in watching it is a John Pilger documentary if you have the time its worth a watch its message/content can also apply to Russian media or any media for that matter when conflict is happening. What you are seeing or are being told is not always as it is, in times of conflict the media is but another weapon for the parties concerned in pursuit of their aims. Some things are clear cut though lots of things are not.( documentary contains some graphic scenes)
John Pilliger drank the cool aid a long time ago. So I'd look on his reporting with as much skepticism as I would a statement from a government.
The definition of "propoganda" seems to be for many people here "not portraying the West as an evil, aggressive entity orchestrating all events they do not like". The "best" media is anything that reinforces their own political position, no matter how extreme that is.
That so much is dismissed as Western propaganda whilst Russian news site that are DIRECTLY UNDER THE CONTROL of the Kremlin (meaning fitting the actual definition of propaganda) seem to be believed without the slightest eye towards skepticism.
Your comparison of "Western" media and Russian is false. Western media runs the gambit from far left to far right, it is not under the direct control of the government. Russia's is massively controlled. Even, say, Fox news is not even nearly a "propaganda" channel under the control of a government. It is merely extremely politically biased. This is not the case for a publication in Russia - where journalists are regularly arrested for breaking ranks.
A comparison between the statements released by the Western governments and Russian media is far more applicable. More people should realize that it is not "unbiased" merely because it conforms with your own particular biases.
What we know for certain is that the "fascists" Russian people and their supporters seem to think are so dominant in the new Ukrainian government make up a tiny proportion of said government (the legislator has not actually been changed since the ousting of the president, it is the exact same constitution in that regard as existed before.
We KNOW that Russia sent troops were sent into Crimea and were the "self defence forces" that were the casus beli for the invasion - Putin has admitted as much. A lot of people here don't seem to have gotten the memo that its been admitted, still toeing the line and proving more if more proof was needed how unthinking their support has been
Given the similarities between them and the new forces in the East, and given how well equipped and organized they are coupled with the nature of their demands it is almost unthinkable that if they are not under the direct control of Moscow, that they are not at the very least beholden to them in many ways.
It seems like all of this is just a replay of the Crimea, and I'm curious what defence the people who are still cheering on the Russians give for this? Note not liking the West is not a great reason for the vast majority of people to support wholeheartedly the actions of anyone opposed to them, so enough with the whataboutery.
It's sad that this entire scenario has revealed the moral midgetry of many on the far left in the West (similar to their excuses for mass murder in the Soviet Union during that period), that there are so few groups that are not just legitimately against aggression in the vast majority of cases, rather than attaching many caveats (when it serves their politics). The groups that claimed there motives for opposing the Iraq war were so pure are depressingly quick to abandon their values in this regard - many individuals on this forum are doing the same. That they support actions that may well become a bloodbath for such petty political reasons should be too embarrassing for them to actually say, depressingly it isnt. I wonder if it is ignorance or the same thing that causes "outrage" over gitmo and (at best) silence far more wide spread repression in Russia for poltical reasons, that is ignored in the mad rush to rally around any figure that wishes to challenge the West.
It seems almost certain this will end in invasion, though I'm curious to know how far people think it will go (take Eastern Ukraine or follow through to take the whole country)?
Given the viciousness that was used to end the Chechen separatism in Russia (which has resulted in far more deaths in the last 2 decades than the West's invasion of Iraq)it's strange that people are not as ready to scoff at Russia for their finger waving at Ukraine for their apparently abortive attempt to end the separatism in their own state.0 -
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will post this video for anyone interested in watching it is a John Pilger documentary
Which I hope you viewed with as much skepticism as you apply to Western media
Watching a Pilger documentary is on about the same level as watching a documentary made by Cheney, they both have opposing agendas, and I certainly wouldn't be posting either after a lecture on propaganda
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John Pilliger drank the cool aid a long time ago. So I'd look on his reporting with as much skepticism as I would a statement from a government.
The definition of "propoganda" seems to be for many people here "not portraying the West as an evil, aggressive entity orchestrating all events they do not like". The "best" media is anything that reinforces their own political position, no matter how extreme that is.
That so much is dismissed as Western propaganda whilst Russian news site that are DIRECTLY UNDER THE CONTROL of the Kremlin (meaning fitting the actual definition of propaganda) seem to be believed without the slightest eye towards skepticism.
Your comparison of "Western" media and Russian is false. Western media runs the gambit from far left to far right, it is not under the direct control of the government. Russia's is massively controlled. Even, say, Fox news is not even nearly a "propaganda" channel under the control of a government. It is merely extremely politically biased. This is not the case for a publication in Russia - where journalists are regularly arrested for breaking ranks.
A comparison between the statements released by the Western governments and Russian media is far more applicable. More people should realize that it is not "unbiased" merely because it conforms with your own particular biases.
What we know for certain is that the "fascists" Russian people and their supporters seem to think are so dominant in the new Ukrainian government make up a tiny proportion of said government (the legislator has not actually been changed since the ousting of the president, it is the exact same constitution in that regard as existed before.
We KNOW that Russia sent troops were sent into Crimea and were the "self defence forces" that were the casus beli for the invasion - Putin has admitted as much. A lot of people here don't seem to have gotten the memo that its been admitted, still toeing the line and proving more if more proof was needed how unthinking their support has been
Given the similarities between them and the new forces in the East, and given how well equipped and organized they are coupled with the nature of their demands it is almost unthinkable that if they are not under the direct control of Moscow, that they are not at the very least beholden to them in many ways.
It seems like all of this is just a replay of the Crimea, and I'm curious what defence the people who are still cheering on the Russians give for this? Note not liking the West is not a great reason for the vast majority of people to support wholeheartedly the actions of anyone opposed to them, so enough with the whataboutery.
It's sad that this entire scenario has revealed the moral midgetry of many on the far left in the West (similar to their excuses for mass murder in the Soviet Union during that period), that there are so few groups that are not just legitimately against aggression in the vast majority of cases, rather than attaching many caveats (when it serves their politics). The groups that claimed there motives for opposing the Iraq war were so pure are depressingly quick to abandon their values in this regard - many individuals on this forum are doing the same. That they support actions that may well become a bloodbath for such petty political reasons should be too embarrassing for them to actually say, depressingly it isnt. I wonder if it is ignorance or the same thing that causes "outrage" over gitmo and (at best) silence far more wide spread repression in Russia for poltical reasons, that is ignored in the mad rush to rally around any figure that wishes to challenge the West.
It seems almost certain this will end in invasion, though I'm curious to know how far people think it will go (take Eastern Ukraine or follow through to take the whole country)?
Given the viciousness that was used to end the Chechen separatism in Russia (which has resulted in far more deaths in the last 2 decades than the West's invasion of Iraq)it's strange that people are not as ready to scoff at Russia for their finger waving at Ukraine for their apparently abortive attempt to end the separatism in their own state.
Since day one I havent doubted Russian involvement in Ukraine infact I called it as soon as they took that airport. The part Ive highlighted in nonsense really. Im not pro-Russia so dont put me in a bracket please or accuse me of moral midgetry you can get off that high horse if that is indeed what you are attempting to do with some of your reply. The documentary highlights how the media regurgitates state b0llox sometimes blindly which they do , journalists who ran with the state line and admitted to being misinformed and in turn misinforming the public admitting as much. The point being that media can misinform. I know full well that Russian media is in propaganda overdrive Im not disputing that and I said as much the documentary is just as relevant to them as it is to the west. Maybe you missed me making that point. when you type in caps lock ( directly under their control) are you shouting or waving your finger around I do wonder it does nothing for the point you are trying to make.Which I hope you viewed with as much skepticism as you apply to Western media
Watching a Pilger documentary is on about the same level as watching a documentary made by Cheney, they both have opposing agendas, and I certainly wouldn't be posting either after a lecture on propaganda
A lecture, sure.;) Pilger doesnt need to do much the interviewees tell the story along with the pictures we all know what happened. We all know we were lied too .The Iraq war was a lie from start to finish to say the documentary is on the same level as one made by Cheney well thats just nonsense isnt it.0 -
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Red Nissan wrote: »Of course it is, using a famously discredited author to make an association with another author in the hope of instigating the same response and resonance of Discommendation equally so amongst both authors.
Whereas in fact, one author lied and invented data, the other merely is reporting in actual incident that actually occurred.
Well the Iraq war actually occurred and it was a big lie. and lots of innocent people died because of this lie that was fed and rammed down our throats by the powers that be and their lackies. Even if you find fault with Pilger how can you find fault with a weapons inspector interviewed four years before the invasion who categorically stated Sadam had no wmd. you know the "reason" they went to war. Or journalists admitting they misinformed the public. It was all a lie. so phuck them.
Back to Ukraine I dont agree with what Putin or Russia has done and Ive stated as much on another thread. Speaking of media Simon Ostrovsky the vice reporter has gone missing in Ukraine I hope he turns up safe this is the last report he made he has produced some really good footage of what has been taking place on the ground.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDutkYQF9d8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPJCPcYCupY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNig07RtWxA
This discussion has been closed.
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