Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Wurzelbert

jimeryan22 wrote: »

[...]a case where they had killed so many people that is was becoming a serious problem trying to get rid of them[...]

you mean the bodies? are you serious? do you have any clue of how and at what pace events unfolded towards the end of the war?

Wurzelbert

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Very detached way of looking at things in my opinion.. I don't even have a reply to your statement now as they just keep rolling out, You sound like Hilary Clinton in the senate hearings after Benghazi... "What difference does it make now..!!!?"
Tell that to family's of the atrocities

detached…i dunno...i just like to put things into perspective and see the big picture...and i think – specifically regarding mass murder/genocide – that it is the intention and the act itself that matter most, not as much the method…
and i do not buy into the whole view of the third reich as somehow „unique“ or an „isolated event“, the „ultimate evil“ or whatever…though i am aware that is not a very popular way of thinking in our time as it goes against the official version of history and the existing world order, and people tend to get emotional and often aggressive at the mere thought of putting the nazis and particularly the holocaust into a historical (or any) perspective and attempting a matter-of-fact approach to the topic…

Jonny7

Wurzelbert wrote: »

detached…i dunno...i just like to put things into perspective and see the big picture...and i think – specifically regarding mass murder/genocide – that it is the intention and the act itself that matter most, not as much the method…
and i do not buy into the whole view of the third reich as somehow „unique“ or an „isolated event“, the „ultimate evil“ or whatever…though i am aware that is not a very popular way of thinking in our time as it goes against the official version of history and the existing world order, and people tend to get emotional and often aggressive at the mere thought of putting the nazis and particularly the holocaust into a historical (or any) perspective and attempting a matter-of-fact approach to the topic…

More people died in the Bhopal gas leak than 911, but the latter remains much more prevalent because of it's nature, significance, etc

Likewise WW2 was the defining war of the modern age, it's only natural that one of it's most defining notorious features, which has been so well recorded and studied, is so present in national conciousness

Reekwind

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Colonials had slaves yes and commited savagery also, But they never had a case where they had killed so many people that is was becoming a serious problem trying to get rid of them so please stop comparing colonialism to the Nazis..

No, they just let the bodies rot in the desert.

No one is claiming that the Holocaust was identical to what had come before; I explicitly rejected that above. But there are clear points of evolution. The British had concentration camps (both before and after the war), the Belgians used brutal indentured labour, the Germans exterminated the Herero/Namaqua, Hitler admired the US dispossession and repression of the Native Americans and so forth. In all cases colonial rule was based on explicit racial hierarchies that viewed the subjugated as inferiors and obstacles to (or tools in) the exploitation of resources.

The Nazi novelty was the industrial nature of the genocide, which allowed for the unprecedented rate and scale of extermination. But beyond this the individual components of the Holocaust were hardly unique. When leading Nazis pictured the future Slav lands, they spoke in terms of the settler states that the US and European empires had long since established.

jimeryan22

Off on a bit of a tangent about hitler, etc here....
I think we can all agree, no matter the country, government,army or whoever responsible for such atrocities. That they were wrong to do so...
And that it may not repeat itself again..
Anyone glorifying these types of characters from history's past need to be consigned to it along with their heroes...

Red Nissan

jimeryan22 wrote: »

And that it may not repeat itself again....

But it has, Bonsia and the mass graves, Chemical attacks on the Kurds are just two that come to mind.

jimeryan22

But neither of those are on the scale of WW2.. Namely millions and millions of people.. I'm not saying that makes it ok, I remember Bosnia well, and what went on there was soul destroying..

Wurzelbert

jimeryan22 wrote: »

But neither of those are on the scale of WW2.. Namely millions and millions of people.. I'm not saying that makes it ok, I remember Bosnia well, and what went on there was soul destroying..

there have been a number of genocidal mass killings with estimates of up to several millions of dead since the end of ww2 - not least on the germans in the east - and there will be more in the future somewhere in the world…
and as for example more recent research on mao’s china comes into the spotlight, even some of the estimated death tolls we are used to in connection with ww2 may yet pale in comparison…and one could also start talking about the “hidden” mass killings in this world, like the killing of huge numbers of little girls (gendercide) just for being girls, though that’s of course something different but really no better…
the world is just a bad place and people(s) will always kill each other…it’s as sad as it is true…
but i do agree, any such mass killing, call it genocide or whatever else, is wrong and basically inexcusable, and we can just hope it won’t happen again at least in europe…

Jonny7

Wurzelbert wrote: »

we can just hope it won’t happen again at least in europe…

Unfortunately hope isn't enough, in our lifetime former Yugoslavia came very close to all out ethnic cleansing - thankfully action was taken

Wurzelbert

Jonny7 wrote: »

Unfortunately hope isn't enough, in our lifetime former Yugoslavia came very close to all out ethnic cleansing - thankfully action was taken

i agree, action was taken against small ex-yugoslav pseudo states in a different world and a different europe with russia on its knees…and yugoslavia had basically been the western allies’ mistake to begin with after ww1, so there was some sort of responsibility to clean up the mess and prevent the worst…

Lou.m

The Arseniy Yatsenyuk Foundation has disappeared weirdly.


It cost millions for his campaign. A lot of the money came from American CEOS etc.

Mr. Yatsenyuk owns an organization called “Open Ukraine Foundation”?

a list of only a FEW of the partners:

- Black Sea Trust for Regional Cooperation (A Project of the German Marshall Fund)
- Chatham House
- NATO Information and Documentation Centre
- State Department of the United States of America
- NED National Endowment for Democracy
- Horizon Capital
- Swedbank

German Marshall Fund, whose Chairman is Guido Goldman. His father, Nahum Goldman,

Chatham House. The Foundation, established in 1920, known until 2004 as the Royal Institute of International Affairs, is a private and world-leading British think tank based in London, whose members engage in study programs, working groups, roundtable conferences and seminars current issues and political events on an international level.

Chatham House, also known as the Royal Institute of International Affairs, is a non-profit, non-governmental organization based in London whose mission is to analyse and promote the understanding of major international issues and current affairs. It is the originator of the world-famous Chatham House Rule.

Chatham House is the origin of the anonymity rule known as the Chatham House Rule, which provides that guests attending a seminar may discuss the results of the seminar in the outside world, but may not discuss who attended or identify what a specific individual said. The Chatham House Rule evolved to facilitate frank and honest discussion on controversial or unpopular issues by speakers who may not have otherwise had the appropriate forum to speak freely. Despite this, most meetings at Chatham House are held on the record, and not under the Chatham House Rule.

Many Ukrainians have suspected that Their new prime minister has already accumulated some personal wealth from his position. My opinion is he is no angel but not nearly as nefarious as his predecessor so far.


One interesting thing is the narrative of antisemitism from Russia (which has been going on for centuries) Arseniy Yatsenyuk is Jewish. Which sort of makes the accusations of the Euromaidan being anti-Semitic laughable to be honest.

Jonny7

Lou.m wrote: »

The Arseniy Yatsenyuk Foundation has disappeared weirdly.

What's the source for this and significance?

edit: just looked it up, comes from a loon white power site

jimeryan22

Lou.m wrote: »

The Arseniy Yatsenyuk Foundation has disappeared weirdly.


It cost millions for his campaign. A lot of the money came from American CEOS etc.

Mr. Yatsenyuk owns an organization called “Open Ukraine Foundation”?

a list of only a FEW of the partners:

- Black Sea Trust for Regional Cooperation (A Project of the German Marshall Fund)
- Chatham House
- NATO Information and Documentation Centre
- State Department of the United States of America
- NED National Endowment for Democracy
- Horizon Capital
- Swedbank

German Marshall Fund, whose Chairman is Guido Goldman. His father, Nahum Goldman,

Chatham House. The Foundation, established in 1920, known until 2004 as the Royal Institute of International Affairs, is a private and world-leading British think tank based in London, whose members engage in study programs, working groups, roundtable conferences and seminars current issues and political events on an international level.

Chatham House, also known as the Royal Institute of International Affairs, is a non-profit, non-governmental organization based in London whose mission is to analyse and promote the understanding of major international issues and current affairs. It is the originator of the world-famous Chatham House Rule.

Chatham House is the origin of the anonymity rule known as the Chatham House Rule, which provides that guests attending a seminar may discuss the results of the seminar in the outside world, but may not discuss who attended or identify what a specific individual said. The Chatham House Rule evolved to facilitate frank and honest discussion on controversial or unpopular issues by speakers who may not have otherwise had the appropriate forum to speak freely. Despite this, most meetings at Chatham House are held on the record, and not under the Chatham House Rule.

Many Ukrainians have suspected that Their new prime minister has already accumulated some personal wealth from his position. My opinion is he is no angel but not nearly as nefarious as his predecessor so far.


One interesting thing is the narrative of antisemitism from Russia (which has been going on for centuries) Arseniy Yatsenyuk is Jewish. Which sort of makes the accusations of the Euromaidan being anti-Semitic laughable to be honest.

Pretty sure yatsenyuk is catholic..?

Wurzelbert

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Pretty sure yatsenyuk is catholic..?

according to wiki he is at least partially of jewish decent…

jimeryan22

Wurzelbert wrote: »

according to wiki he is at least partially of jewish decent…

It's says on wiki under religion.. Catholic
So I assume he's a practicing one, even if the man has Jewish roots.. Besides its means nowt... There was plenty of Jewish selling their own down the river, Likes of George soros..

old_aussie

Sounds like it's started.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/ukraine-loses-two-choppers-in-assault-on-rebel-town-of-slavyansk-as-crisis-deepens-20140503-zr3np.html

Putin's looking for any reason to storm Ukraine to protect his financial interests.

handlemaster

Russia has already taken part of Ukraine and Europe did nothing. Same will happen when they go for the eastern region.

comongethappy

old_aussie wrote: »

Putin's looking for any reason to storm Ukraine to protect his financial interests.

Flicked through RT last night, the went to a break asking in a mock 'pained' tone:
"When will Russian forces intervene to stop this"?

Remarkable hubris, like Russia has the god given right to conquer.

Red Nissan

LOts of protesters now running around in riot gear, the police seem to have lost all the will to fight and are just giving their gear away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj0N2iS5g_k&list=TLHVIvKAEBy71p3jPTPg7TPCIQG5PvoI4M

diveout

Are other former members of the Soviet Block getting nervous? What are the chances of this happening in other former Soviet states? Or will Russia be exhausted by events in the Ukraine?

comongethappy

diveout wrote: »

Are other former members of the Soviet Block getting nervous? What are the chances of this happening in other former Soviet states? Or will Russia be exhausted by events in the Ukraine?

I've read that some of the central Asian administrations are getting a bit jittery.

If not because of threat of Russian reoccupation, just in case their own citizens rise up.

Lou.m

handlemaster wrote: »

Russia has already taken part of Ukraine and Europe did nothing. Same will happen when they go for the eastern region.

Once you start invading you cannot stop.

Other regions become edgy and borders vulnerable.

Neighbors are not friends always to invaders of a friendly nation.

Russia's will see a need to continue.

realweirdo

Since Putin resumed office in the kremlin a few years ago he has been determined to outmuscle Obama. On virtually every major issue Obama has blinked first particularly on Syria. The fact Obama is incapable of negotiating his way out of a paper bag also doesnt help him.

will Putin invade Ukraine? Probably not. Crimea was of strategic value whereas Eastern Ukraine is less so. It would risk further isolation for Russia and for a small gain. Its relatively easy to defend Crimea for the Russians. Less so eastern ukraine.

alastair

realweirdo wrote: »

Since Putin resumed office in the kremlin a few years ago he has been determined to outmuscle Obama. On virtually every major issue Obama has blinked first particularly on Syria. The fact Obama is incapable of negotiating his way out of a paper bag also doesnt help him.

will Putin invade Ukraine? Probably not. Crimea was of strategic value whereas Eastern Ukraine is less so. It would risk further isolation for Russia and for a small gain. Its relatively easy to defend Crimea for the Russians. Less so eastern ukraine.

The Russians have no problem defending any border arrangement they choose in the region. They've a far larger military than any of their neighbours. It only becomes an issue when they threaten a NATO state. A strip of Southern Ukraine would net them a land bridge to Crimea, the entire Black Sea coastline from Ukraine, Odessa and the re-absorption of Transnistria. That might be more useful to them alongside a chunk of Eastern Ukraine. In for a penny...

Depressing events.

realweirdo

alastair wrote: »

The Russians have no problem defending any border arrangement they choose in the region. They've a far larger military than any of their neighbours. It only becomes an issue when they threaten a NATO state. A strip of Southern Ukraine would net them a land bridge to Crimea, the entire Black Sea coastline from Ukraine, Odessa and the re-absorption of Transnistria. That might be more useful to them alongside a chunk of Eastern Ukraine. In for a penny...

Depressing events.

Not really that simple. Taking over a large chunk of Ukraine involves assimilating large numbers of ethnic Ukrainians, who will be like the pro Russian seperatists now but in reverse. The Russians will be seen as an occupying force by many. And there is no way the Ukrainians would stand for it either, it would more than likely be either a hot war or a long running guerrilla conflict. Crimea is fairly cut and dried and with a very large proportion of pro Russians. Eastern and southern ukraine is not so cut and dried. I doubt even the Russians have the stomach for it. Keeping a large army in Ukraine, resupplied and so on, it would be very costly and like I said for very little real gain, apart from having a load of new citiziens many of who only seem to want Russian social welfare, pensions, etc. Notice all the pensioner pro Russians at the barricades!

diveout

realweirdo wrote: »

Since Putin resumed office in the kremlin a few years ago he has been determined to outmuscle Obama. On virtually every major issue Obama has blinked first particularly on Syria. The fact Obama is incapable of negotiating his way out of a paper bag also doesnt help him.

will Putin invade Ukraine? Probably not. Crimea was of strategic value whereas Eastern Ukraine is less so. It would risk further isolation for Russia and for a small gain. Its relatively easy to defend Crimea for the Russians. Less so eastern ukraine.

He is taking advantage of the US having a weak president. Make hay while the sun shines.

Jonny7

realweirdo wrote: »

Since Putin resumed office in the kremlin a few years ago he has been determined to outmuscle Obama. On virtually every major issue Obama has blinked first particularly on Syria. The fact Obama is incapable of negotiating his way out of a paper bag also doesnt help him.

Putin must have one of the easiest political jobs in the world..

A docile fawning population, a rubber stamp parliament, utterly controlled media and no opposition. It's not so much that he out-maneuvers the Europe and US - he just plays with completely different set of rules on a different playing field

cerastes

realweirdo wrote: »

Not really that simple. Taking over a large chunk of Ukraine involves assimilating large numbers of ethnic Ukrainians, who will be like the pro Russian seperatists now but in reverse. The Russians will be seen as an occupying force by many. And there is no way the Ukrainians would stand for it either, it would more than likely be either a hot war or a long running guerrilla conflict. Crimea is fairly cut and dried and with a very large proportion of pro Russians. Eastern and southern ukraine is not so cut and dried. I doubt even the Russians have the stomach for it. Keeping a large army in Ukraine, resupplied and so on, it would be very costly and like I said for very little real gain, apart from having a load of new citiziens many of who only seem to want Russian social welfare, pensions, etc. Notice all the pensioner pro Russians at the barricades!

Cant say Id agree with that, while Im uncertain if the Russian army will go in full force, they are likely already supporting the seperatists even by helping them organise.
It looks like the Ukrainians are being goaded into a fight with some seperatist demonstrators/rioters. I cant even see why the Ukrainians are engaging with them if they end up handing over their equipment, so either they have no confidence in their superiors or they have received no orders on exactly what to do. Rather than being holed up in their police stations and barracks you'd think they would be out manning checkpoints at critical points of access like bridges, and entries to major routes to prevent movement of people into potential hot spots. But they seem to just be giving up their armoured vehicles and weapons??? to civilians? unless they are being told otherwise that they are being targeted and the Russian army is waiting to roll in?? or have been ordered to not open fire by their superiors so as not to give cause for an invasion, in which case why turn up in populated areas without police support to keep protesters away from military areas.

They certainly seem to be standing for it and as such they seem like they might be ill prepared or unwilling for a guerrilla war if they aren't prepared or willing to manage the situation already. I understand its not an easy situation to deal with but maybe they should just write off the major cities that are protesting and deny access to them at the moment.

The russians are already maintaining their army, Im not sure its that much more costly for them to operate so close to their own borders with the Ukraine than they are in their barracks. They are already being penalised for it, so why not go the whole hog?

audi100

Odessa slaughter: How vicious mob burnt anti-govt activists alive:

Odessa slaughter: How vicious mob burnt anti-govt activists:
Dozens of people died in flames in Odessa, when radicals set ablaze the local House of Trade Unions with anti-government protesters blocked inside. The city is now in mourning for those who died, suffocated in smoke or had to jump out of windows.
What triggered the tragedy were violent clashes, which erupted on Friday afternoon between two rival rallies in Ukraine's port-city of Odessa.
Around 1,500 supporters of the Kiev authorities, accompanied by aggressive fans of the local football club, Chernomorets, tried to march through the center of the city chanting “Glory to Ukraine,” “Death to enemies,” “Knife the Moskals [derogatory for Russians].” Some of the people in the group were wearing ultra-nationalist Right Sector movement insignia, were armed with chains and bats and carried shields.
Several hundred anti-government activists eventually confronted the procession. Fighting broke out as a result, with members of the rival groups throwing stones, Molotov cocktails and smoke grenades at each other and at police. The pavements were spattered with blood.
The police failed to draw the rival groups apart. As a result, 4 people were killed and 37 wounded in the violence. Police were among the injured.
Street clashes appeared to be only the beginning of the Odessa Friday nightmare, as radicals started to drive anti-government activists back to their tent camp in front of the local House of Trade Unions. Many anti-Kiev protesters eventually hid inside the building.
“Women and children were hiding in the Trade Union’s building,” an eye-witness told RT. “First the armed men set fire to tents, then they started throwing Molotov cocktails and grenades at the building. We heard shots fired and saw smoke,” she added.
The first floor of the Trade Unions building was soon engulfed in flames. The people inside appeared to be trapped.
Dozens eventually burnt alive or suffocated to death. To escape the fire and smoke, people were hanging out of windows and sitting on windowsills. In sheer desperation, some of them eventually jumped to the ground.
Many of those who managed to escape the fire were then brutally beaten by armed men, believed to be from the ultra-nationalist Right Sector group, who had the building under siege.
As people were dying in the burning building, some of the pro-Kiev activists jeered on Twitter that “Colorado beetles are being roasted up in Odessa,” using a derogatory term for pro-Russian activists.
About 50 people got to the roof of the burning building and waited for help there. RT managed to speak to one of them, after they were later rescued by police.
“We were hiding there [on the roof] from this angry mob, which forced us inside this building and threw Molotov cocktails and stones at us,” he said. “People were burned alive inside the building, they couldn't get out. We couldn't go down, we were seeing people from other floors being brought down and then those rioters down there attacked them like a pack of wolves. We were escorted from the roof and from the building. We had to step over dead bodies when we were descending the stairs.”
A total of 46 people died in Odessa’s violence on Friday and almost 200 others sustained injuries, Odessa Region prosecutor Igor Borshulyak told journalists on Saturday.
39 of the dead lost their lives in the fire at the Odessa Trade Unions House, according to the Ukrainian emergencies agency, which released a statement saying that “31 of the dead were found inside the building, eight more were found outside by law enforcement officers.”
Odessa announced on Saturday a three-day mourning for the victims of the tragedy.
Later, Ukraine’s acting President Aleksandr Turchinov signed a decree signaling two days of national mourning for those who died in the special military operation in eastern Ukraine and in mass clashes in Odessa.
Residents of Odessa have since Saturday morning been laying flowers outside the burnt out Trade Union building.
Russians have been bringing candles to the Ukrainian embassy in Moscow to commemorate the dead in Odessa.

comongethappy

There is no source mentioned, but you can tell its RT (such emotional language).

- It fails to mention that the pro-Ukraine rally was peacefull until attacked by the pro-Russian group.

- That both sides had petrol bombs, small arms, bats & Molotov cocktails.

- The pro-Kremlin supporters barricaded themselves in the Union HQ.

- Busses of pro-kremlin supporters were stopped by a police roadblock on the edge of Odessa, but were allowed to process into the city centre at the orders of a senior Odessa police officer.


Poor effort RT