Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Reekwind

This disgraceful response to the burning to death of dozens of protesters (with the Kiev government blaming it on the dead!) reminds me of that well known quote from the Balkans. To paraphrase:

"When a separatist kills a separatist, it does not count. When a loyalist kills a separatist, it is a righteous act. It is only when a separatist kills a loyalist that we arrive at a full-blown atrocity."

We all know that had the position been reversed (with pro-Russians pelting petrol bombs into the building as Yanukovych's policemen stood idly by) then we wouldn't have the likes of comongethappy making snide remarks. No, there'd be universal outrage and demands for action. It would be a "full-blown atrocity".

alastair

comongethappy wrote: »

There is no source mentioned, but you can tell its RT (such emotional language).

- It fails to mention that the pro-Ukraine rally was peacefull until attacked by the pro-Russian group.

- That both sides had petrol bombs, small arms, bats & Molotov cocktails.

- The pro-Kremlin supporters barricaded themselves in the Union HQ.

- Busses of pro-kremlin supporters were stopped by a police roadblock on the edge of Odessa, but were allowed to process into the city centre at the orders of a senior Odessa police officer.


Poor effort RT

RT it is: http://rt.com/news/156592-odessa-activists-burnt-alive/

Manach

If there is any region that deserves a break from the historical events of the past, it would be Ukraine: given the suffering over the past century. The events on the ground seem to be building a momentum that is spinning out of control of the major stakeholders in Kiev and Moscow, with local elements believing them in the right and the other side beyond the pale. This civil feuding in the past has destabilised other neighbouring regions and looks to be wreaking havoc here; so we are in for "interesting" times.

realweirdo

Reekwind wrote: »

This disgraceful response to the burning to death of dozens of protesters (with the Kiev government blaming it on the dead!) reminds me of that well known quote from the Balkans. To paraphrase:

"When a separatist kills a separatist, it does not count. When a loyalist kills a separatist, it is a righteous act. It is only when a separatist kills a loyalist that we arrive at a full-blown atrocity."

We all know that had the position been reversed (with pro-Russians pelting petrol bombs into the building as Yanukovych's policemen stood idly by) then we wouldn't have the likes of comongethappy making snide remarks. No, there'd be universal outrage and demands for action. It would be a "full-blown atrocity".

They came looking for a fight and armed to the teeth. They are trying to destabilise a country and a region and by the sounds of it werent even from ukraine but instead came from transniestra. They also attacked the police beforehand. Granted the police did little to protect them. However when you attempt to undermine the police force of a country as the pro russians have been doing across ukraine they can hardly call foul when anarchy ensues and people take the law into their own hands.

audi100

Here is another point of view which doesn't fit into standard frame given by anti - Russia media sources: "A People's War in East Ukraine" at consortiumnews.

Don't be lazy, read it through. This article gives you posibility to look at Ukrainian Crisis from other side.

Reekwind

realweirdo wrote: »

They came looking for a fight and armed to the teeth. They are trying to destabilise a country and a region and by the sounds of it werent even from ukraine but instead came from transniestra. They also attacked the police beforehand. Granted the police did little to protect them. However when you attempt to undermine the police force of a country as the pro russians have been doing across ukraine they can hardly call foul when anarchy ensues and people take the law into their own hands.

Well, no. I think you can "call foul" when people are barricaded in a building and burnt to death. To argue that this is in any way acceptable is nothing short of some insane reversion to medieval thinking.

And again, the hypocrisy is staggering. "Undermine the police force" and you get burnt to death? I bet you weren't saying that when Maidan protesters were having running battles with Yanukovych's security services. It's a good thing that only the "pro-Russians" "came looking for a fight"... unlike those who'd stocked up on petrol bombs and missiles to lob into the trade union building. And you'll berate RT while parroting claims from the Kiev government less than 24 hours after the event regarding the identities of those burnt alive. I suppose that the thousands of protesters who stormed the police offices in the city today were also covert agents from "Transniestra"?

This would all be absurd if it weren't so tragic.

audi100

- Busses of pro-kremlin supporters were stopped by a police roadblock on the edge of Odessa, but were allowed to process into the city centre at the orders of a senior Odessa police officer.



Kiev authorities are trying to shift the responsibility for the events in Odessa on Saturday dismissed the Chief of the provincial police of Peter Lucûka, demanding the city militia to deport the "right" and the so-called "Maidan Self-Defense Forces", said a source in the local law enforcement agencies.


"Lucûk was dismissed, to cover up the traces of the massacre organized by the authorities of Kiev. To do this, they are specifically sent to Odessa a few hundred fighters of the "right" and "self-defence", the source said, ITAR-TASS reported.
"Before this, rallies supporters in the new Government was not more than two hundred people. Last week, the Lucûk spoke at a session of the Regional Council with a demand remove from the city of militants who organized the illegal roadblocks around the city and to escalate the situation. Police also found in the warehouse in which militants have delivered weapons and ammunition, "he said.
"However, the appointed a new Governor of Kiev Vladimir Nemirovskiy stated that the presence of militants in Odessa is to control the police. After that to Odessa came Secretary of Ukraine Andrey Parubiy, who met with the militants and handed them body armor and other equipment, "he noted, expressing the conviction that open into rioting, criminal cases would be used for killing political opponents of the new Government in Kiev.

na1

comongethappy wrote: »

Poor effort RT

Nice effort BBC

According to BBC reports Ukranian nazi-ultra-s were hepling buring people out of the building in Odessa.

This is a witnesses video (sorry can be deleted shortly)


(note: grafic content!!!!)
youtube watch ? v=5QI2JSLcW6s



Over 40 people (all local Ukranians) were burned alive or beaten to death after jumping out of the building.
And where is a single sing of condemn from EU leaders? where are the sanctions?

na1

comongethappy wrote: »

- It fails to mention that the pro-Ukraine rally was peacefull until attacked by the pro-Russian group.

Have you EVER seen a peaceful rally of large group of soccer fans?

comongethappy

na1 wrote: »

Have you EVER seen a peaceful rally of large group of soccer fans?

Yes, many times.

though footie fans don't really rally in a political sense in our part of the world.
(As I'm sure you know).

In eastern Europe the skinheads frequently take their politics onto the terraces.
Recent UEFA sanctions against Zenit St Petersburg for example.

Jonny7

Reekwind wrote: »

Well, no. I think you can "call foul" when people are barricaded in a building and burnt to death. To argue that this is in any way acceptable is nothing short of some insane reversion to medieval thinking.

And again, the hypocrisy is staggering. "Undermine the police force" and you get burnt to death? I bet you weren't saying that when Maidan protesters were having running battles with Yanukovych's security services. It's a good thing that only the "pro-Russians" "came looking for a fight"... unlike those who'd stocked up on petrol bombs and missiles to lob into the trade union building. And you'll berate RT while parroting claims from the Kiev government less than 24 hours after the event regarding the identities of those burnt alive. I suppose that the thousands of protesters who stormed the police offices in the city today were also covert agents from "Transniestra"?

This would all be absurd if it weren't so tragic.

No need for hysterics

There were molotovs on both sides - the fact that anyone died is a tragedy

and RT does deserve to be berated at every turn, much of the current violence is an indirect result of propaganda, people in the East switching on their evening news and being told an army of fascists are coming, US mercenaries are coming or other downright lies

Jonny7

na1 wrote: »

where are the sanctions?

On the one country that is causing this violence.

Lockstep

RT's coverage is fascinating. It's like Fox News for anti-Americans.

Has anyone been following Globalresearch.ca? They make RT look sane. I first came across them when researching the Kosovo crisis (I'm doing a PhD in international law) and they were apologists for the Milosevic regime.

While I have no love for the Kiev government, I'm amazed at how many normally staunch anti-imperialists are jumping to support the Kremlin as the US is backing the Kiev government.

Manach

Lockstep wrote: »

I'm doing a PhD in international law

Slightly OT, as I did module at a lower level, are you following on Prof. Eric Posner's take on the crisis - http://ericposner.com/ ?

Frank Lee Midere

Lockstep wrote: »

RT's coverage is fascinating. It's like Fox News for anti-Americans.

Has anyone been following Globalresearch.ca? They make RT look sane. I first came across them when researching the Kosovo crisis (I'm doing a PhD in international law) and they were apologists for the Milosevic regime.

While I have no love for the Kiev government, I'm amazed at how many normally staunch anti-imperialists are jumping to support the Kremlin as the US is backing the Kiev government.

Oh they aren't really anti- imperialists. Someone on twitter retweeted a "proof" that NATO and the EU were encroaching on Russian territory today. Well I saw it today. It showed a map of the Soviet Empire and the Warsaw Pact in 1990 shaded red and the EU in blue. Then the map today. The blue was encroaching on what the poster clearly saw as Russian territory - central and Eastern Europe.

To these nuts the Russians rolling into Europe would be an anti- imperialist act.

Lockstep

IT'S ONLY FASCISM WHEN THE US DOES IT.

That said, I'm fairly fascinated by how much Putin is using the "Kiev are anti-semites" line when Ukraine's Jews are telling him to back off and even Crimea's rabbi is is a Putin opponent

Lockstep

Reekwind

Jonny7 wrote: »

There were molotovs on both sides - the fact that anyone died is a tragedy

And one side was throwing them into the building. Hmmm, I wonder what could have caused the fire?

na1

Lockstep wrote: »

IT'S ONLY FASCISM WHEN THE US DOES IT.

it's only when lieaders of Syria, Libya, Yugoslavia & Iraq - using army they are criminals and must be killed.
When ukranian army fires missiles at it's own city, this is a reasonable force and legitimate use of violence

"The state's monopoly on the legitimate use of violence needs to be respected"(c)Catherine Ashton

(Today's footage!)

youtube.com watch?v=oXMO-zKhYhU

How does the missile know who is a 'separatist' and who is a peaceful citizen?

Jonny7

Reekwind wrote: »

And one side was throwing them into the building. Hmmm, I wonder what could have caused the fire?

Both sides were throwing molotov's. Including those inside the building, at least one of which struck but didn't break the window and exploded inside.

na1

Jonny7 wrote: »

Both sides were throwing molotov's. Including those inside the building, at least one of which struck but didn't break the window and exploded inside.

ORLY? May I see an evidence?

All the videos have bottles thrown INTO the building!

na1

using an army against own people -is a WAR CRIME, which must be prosecuted at International Criminal Court at Hague.
Has any EU leader ever noticed this?

comongethappy

na1 wrote: »

using an army against own people -is a WAR CRIME,

I'm pretty sure a given nations army engaged against armed rebels is not a war crime.

Most nations at some point in their history have faced some sort of insurrection, including Ireland and especially including Russia.
Using the army to oppose it is not in itself a war crime.

na1

comongethappy wrote: »

Using the army to oppose it is not in itself a war crime.

Do you really know what the armies are created for, and what are police/special forces for?
and what is the major difference between them?

alastair

na1 wrote: »

Do you really know what the armies are created for, and what are police/special forces for?
and what is the major difference between them?

Eh, maybe you might direct your gaze to NI - decades of applying the army onto the streets to maintain law and order. No war crimes reported to the International Criminal Court there, not will there be in Ukraine - the use for the army against civil insurrection is perfectly legal.

na1

alastair wrote: »

Eh, maybe you might direct your gaze to NI - decades of applying the army onto the streets to maintain law and order. No war crimes reported to the International Criminal Court there, not will there be in Ukraine - the use for the army against civil insurrection is perfectly legal.

Hmm... deploying army to the streets as a peacekeepers vs army fighting civilians, what a big difference?
How many peaceful civilians did UK army shoot in NI?
Were there attack helicopters/tanks on the streets/in the air?

Were they firing unguided missiles towards the towns of NI? Tank shells?

Spot 10 differences between what Kievan junta is doing in Slavyansk (Eastern Ukraine) and Assad doing in Syria?

Jonny7

na1 wrote: »

Hmm... deploying army to the streets as a peacekeepers vs army fighting civilians, what a big difference?
How many peaceful civilians did UK army shoot in NI?
Were there attack helicopters/tanks on the streets/in the air?

Were they firing unguided missiles towards the towns of NI? Tank shells?

Spot 10 differences between what Kievan junta is doing in Slavyansk (Eastern Ukraine) and Assad doing in Syria?

The authorities in Ukraine are fighting heavily armed separatists in their own country. They have had missiles fired at their aircraft, are being attacked by mortars, snipers and even mechanised vehicles

They are doing so as tentatively as possible because few Ukrainians want this fight and there is a threatening foreign force on the other side of the border, and to be honest, most of these Ukrainian soldiers and locals in the region have no desire whatsoever for any of this, having had few, if any troubles like this before

It's a pointless sad situation. It's also nothing like Syria

comongethappy

na1 wrote: »

Hmm... deploying army to the streets as a peacekeepers vs army fighting civilians, what a big difference?
How many peaceful civilians did UK army shoot in NI?
Were there attack helicopters/tanks on the streets/in the air?

Were they firing unguided missiles towards the towns of NI? Tank shells?

Spot 10 differences between what Kievan junta is doing in Slavyansk (Eastern Ukraine) and Assad doing in Syria?

Armour & Helicoptors in NI?
Yes there was, for a time.

However hysteria aside.
If you are going to cry "war crimes!"
You will need to show us the treaty/statute/declaration demonstrating that a nations army engaging an insurrection is a war crime.

na1

comongethappy wrote: »

Armour & Helicoptors in NI?
Yes there was, for a time.

Can you read what I write?

There were tanks attacking towns? Or Helicopters firing unguided missiles?

na1

Jonny7 wrote: »

The authorities in Ukraine are fighting heavily armed separatists in their own country. They have had missiles fired at their aircraft, are being attacked by mortars, snipers and even mechanised vehicles

1)that's a lie about mortars & snipers.
2)If IRA fighter shoot down the NI helicopter - does it allow UK army to siege and attack the whole city?
The army goal is DEFENDING it's people not fighting them.