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Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.
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Russian analitic view of the current information war around ukraine. The translators are not professionals , sorry for bad English.
Apparently US managed to enforce EU leaders (read: Merkel) against their own interests (both economic and security) to take a course on a tough confrontation with Russia. Given the close relationship of the EU with the US – economic, cultural, military and political – it’s not that stupid. Europe will suffer indeed from a confrontation with its neighbor, the main supplier of energy and the third most important economic partner. But confrontation with the United States would be ever more painful.
Personally I believe that Europe has made the wrong choice from a strategic perspective. But tactically this choice is likely to be less painful for European politicians and democracies generally are not willing to make painful yet necessary decisions.
Ukraine it's definitely not the reason of confrontation: it’s an occasion and a tool but not the cause. Course to the confrontation was taken in advance but the reasons used to sell it to Western public were not convincing so far. The tough fortune of gays and stray dogs in the media couldn’t justify the necessity of a new Cold War.
The war in the center of the continent just on the EU border is far more serious issue. It’s pretty obvious that Europeans were used to support the Maidan – it became apparent at some moment that the radical protesters shocked gentle European politics and observers. But Americans were playing a winning game already.
Yanukovich crushes the protest? He can be declared a criminal then and international community can be urged to overthrow the dictator with the help of the Right Sector fighters playing the role of Forces of Good. Without Russia’s backing the situation would come where it is now. Russia supports the bloody dictator killing its own people? Sanctions!
Junta seized power? Better yet – freedom-loving Ukrainian people have ‘legal’ rights to demand the withdrawal of evil neighbor’s ‘illegal’ military bases. Provocations against Navy, Russian military and their families then follow. Any Russian moves to protect its interests? It’s aggression against a sovereign state. Sanctions!
The recent actions of the Ukrainian security services – the senselessly cruel and inefficient way they suppress separatism – suggest that their true purpose is provoking Russia to use force. Russia doesn’t respond to provocations, doesn’t send troops, doesn’t supply rebels with weapons? Don’t you worry! Western politicians already stated unequivocally that a failure of the presidential elections in Ukraine or continued protests in the South and East of Ukraine (which is essentially the same) would be a reason for sanctions.
They don’t care about Ukraine and Ukrainians – they just need to impose sanctions. And if by some mystical reason Ukraine would not work as a reason they can always get back to the fate of stray dogs.
One may ask the logical question: why doing it the hard way? Because it’s democracy. Democratic system assumes that elites should convince the public of the country in advance that it’s the public itself who wants to do what elites intend to do.
It’s easy to do when you totally control the media by controlling the largest publishers and all major news outlets. As a rule. At first glance.
Frau Kanzlerin cannot just say honestly that being occupied by the US military, Germany isn’t in position to pursue an independent policy and resist the blackmail from his chief ‘NATO ally.’ She has to invent a reason so that each burger would wish himself to punish Russia for its misconduct.
But the problem is that Russia isn’t Libya neither Iran. The EU-Russia trade is third by volume, closely following those with United States and China. Besides Russian gas is an important commodity that Europe cannot replace in the short term. Physically. For any money. Russian oil can be replaced only in theory, in practice this is not possible either – the only way to do so is to cut off some other world regions from oil supplies by force.
In other words it’s not enough to explain why the ‘international community’ (i.e. the West) must punish Russia for its bloody crimes against gays, lesbians and Ukrainians. He needs to be explained why he should be punished himself in connection with all of the above. And it won’t be a symbolic punishment – it isn’t clear yet whether a Russian people or a Germany and other EU people would suffer more from the coming sanctions war.
But the TV watcher is well aware that he doesn’t give a damn to gays, lesbians and Ukrainians. And it’s very, very hard to convince him to the contrary. Not impossible… but difficult, for sure.
And if telling people honestly that thay must sacrifice own interests simply because he has no other choice – because Uncle Sam can do him a pain – then together with the economic crisis it may lead the whole political EU system to a severe crisis. Up to its own Maidan with burning tires.
That’s why despite everything seems to be pre-decided the parties continue to butt in the information space. That’s why Ukraine continues provocation but there is no really tough actions against ‘separatists’. The more tough and inhumane actions Ukrainian Nazi successors that seized power in Kiev would take, the harder it would be to sell a German people the idea that Russia and Putin personally are totally inadequate, unpredictable and dangerous for the said burger personally. In that case the buyers of the show would have to fight on two fronts – is this what they want? But if there would be no drastic actions from Ukrainian special forces then the Ukrainian South East would form an enclave by themselves, without the help from Russia. And it’s viability would hardly be less than the viability of the remaining Ukraine. Meanwhile Putin keeps silence.
All the above doesn’t mean that Russia has any mean or way to avoid sanctions, i.e. (partial at least) tearing of economic ties with the EU. Sanctions will be anyway – for stray dogs if not for Ukrainians. But EU people should understand that main target is not Russia it's EU.0 -
It's not just Russia, but also Poland and Lithuania, and occasionally Sweden, fighting with each other with the Ukraine being only the battle field. It's not that different today, with the exception that now we have, more or less, the US in place of Poland and the EU in place of Lithuania.My understanding, from reading books on Russian history by Geoffry Hopkins, is that intervention from Moscow in the region dates back to the 16th Century using local elements such as Cossacks. I'm neutral on that, but it does seem to differ from the concept of supporting terrorism that the UK has established as the means to control its people fighting in Syria - as Cossacks (AFAIK) are scattered around that region.
As for Ukraine itself, the last chance to build a united and unitary state was the time of Khmelnitsky Uprising in mid-seventeen century, but the ultra-democratic society of Cossacks could not compete with the monarchies surrounding it at that time. Since that time Ukraine is doomed to be divided.0 -
They need Novorossiysk in addition to Sevastopol, not instead of it. Sevastopol's bays are ideal for naval base, its strategical central location is far better then the East coast. And they certainly didn't want to see a NATO base there instead of their own after 2017.What about Novorossiysk?0 -
Colonel Buendia wrote: »It's not just Russia, but also Poland and Lithuania, and occasionally Sweden, fighting with each other with the Ukraine being only the battle field. It's not that different today, with the exception that now we have, more or less, the US in place of Poland and the EU in place of Lithuania.
As for Ukraine itself, the last chance to build a united and unitary state was the time of Khmelnitsky Uprising in mid-seventeen century, but the ultra-democratic society of Cossacks could not compete with the monarchies surrounding it at that time. Since that time Ukraine is doomed to be divided.
of course, not like ukraine ever was an independent state back then...the region we now call ukraine has gone through many turbulent centuries, even long before the 16th, and many nations have been involved over time - russians, poles, turks, austrians and others - yet it has always been predominantly russian, certainly russian-dominated for centuries, and the russian nation itself has its historical roots there...the idea of the ukrainians as a distinct people or ukraine as a nation or an independent state are inventions of the 19th century...all of which explains a lot...and i’d wager turbulent times lie ahead...0 -
Wurzelbert wrote: »of course, not like ukraine ever was an independent state back then...the region we now call ukraine has gone through many turbulent centuries, even long before the 16th, and many nations have been involved over time - russians, poles, turks, austrians and others - yet it has always been predominantly russian, certainly russian-dominated for centuries, and the russian nation itself has its historical roots there...the idea of the ukrainians as a distinct people or ukraine as a nation or an independent state are inventions of the 19th century...all of which explains a lot...and i’d wager turbulent times lie ahead...
This part "russian nation itself has its historical roots there" got me thinking.
of course, not like kosovo ever was an independent state back then...the region we now call kosovo has gone through many turbulent centuries, even long before the 16th, and many nations have been involved over time - serbs, turks, bulgars and others - yet it has always been predominantly serbian, certainly serbian-dominated for centuries, and the serbian nation itself has its historical roots there...the idea of the kosovras as a distinct people or kosovo as a nation or an independent state are inventions of the late 20th century...all of which explains a lot...0 -
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Thats a good example:
Crimea was taken without a single shot, and almost no casualties.
And no Kiev is really fighting with full army attacks causing 10-s being killed every day in their own country!
Guess which side do locals support in Crimea and in Eastern Ukraine?
You're using some extremely warped logic. Non-resistance doesn't mean acceptance. If some armed guys took over my town, I'd keep my head down to protect myself and my family. It doesn't mean I support them.
Ukraine made it very clear they opposed the annexation but withdrew to avoid conflict.
If you can show any widespread public support or opinion polls, that'd be great. Otherwise, you're just projecting your own personal bias.Nothern Ireland I guess?
The guy is speaking Russian with Ukrainian accent (like most of them in Eastern Ukraine)
And he doesn't hide you can contact him for the name and address.
The real problem is that all the info is filtered my western media, and something that shouldn't be seen is not shown
This is in Dublin, have you seen this in Media?
ic.pics.livejournal.com felix_edmund/67616538/91493/91493_900.jpg
What's your obsession with Northern Ireland? You keep mentioning it without any context so I'm really struggling to see your point.Nice try:
Oh please, you just cherry picked two 17 year old girls who were let go out of the 16 who were arrested.
YOu're ignoring that it reports that people have had their passports confiscated and a woman has been charged for trying to smuggle cash to the rebels.
But as long as some people are let go, it shows that the UK is clearly not doing anything, right?
Probably as it is has its own tipping point. It backed off in Crimea but do you honestly think they'd step back and allow the East to secede? Would Russia do the same in Chechnya or Dagestan?So does Ukraine want to give Russia an excuse to use force in Eastern Ukraine?
In a rushed referendum that took place under military occupation without any independent international observers in a referendum which lacked support from any other member of the Security Council?and voted in favor of Russia?
And no fights Clashes like in Odessa or Kiev?
Yup, sounds legit.
Right, so protesters are definite proof of widespread support.I've posted videos how locals are opposing APCs, police are wearing pro-Russian symbols isn't it enough?
Using that logic, I can post videos of protestors in Dublin and show that the majority of Irish people support Sinn Féin or are opposed to capitalism.
You're operating on some weird logic alright.Putin has not said a single word about deployment!
That's an exact example how propaganda works)))
Where does he say: Russia deploy new troops (in addition to existing ~20k) into Crimea recently?
Ah yeah, the tool of Western imperialism that is Reuters.
Is the Huffington Post ok?
As an aside (and speaking as a moderator) would you be able to consolidate multiple replies to the same poster into single posts? It makes your posts a lot easier to follow than having half a dozen posts consecutively.0 -
He's not claiming thatthey're Spetsnaz operatives but that they are well armed enough to shoot down three helicopters in a few days. These weren't lucky assault rifle shots, no matter how dated an Mi-24 is.Colonel Buendia wrote: »No, that does not count as a reliable source. Mr Avakov was not there and could not be an eye witness, plus he has his own agenda to portrait Donbas forces as highly skilled and well equipped Russian spetsnaz to justify the failures of his so far hugely unsuccessful military operation against the rebels. During a conflict or a war I would not trust any mass media unless backed up by a good primary source of information. On the other hand, we have a pretty good coverage of the rebel forces, including real time streams. What we see there is a bunch of mixed aged men, from their twenties to their sixties, armed with Ukranian AKs, RPKs and SVDs (Russians have been using newer models for a good while) or even WWII era guns and hunting long arms. Some are carrying old RPG-7 grenade launchers and 9K111 anti-tank missiles. There are few seized BMD vehicles but they are probably not using them anyway (which actually makes sense with the tactics they employ). That's pretty much it. It looks like the first helicopter was shot down with 9K111 while taking off. Others were probably the work of RPG and some (judging by the images of the helicopters with no major damages and the claims that fighter jets were trying to destroy some of the shot down helicopters) probably by RPKs. Ukrainian army does not have modern helicopters, the Mi-8 and Mi-24 are seriously outdated as attack helicopters as they are easy targets when they are alone. No jets were shot down. That all suggest they are unlikely to have SAMs.
Even an assault rifle takes longer than one day to become proficient in it. I haven't used a SRAAW in a few years now (AT4 SRAAW alright) but even then, it's a huge difference to hit a target on the practice range and to use it to shoot down a moving target (especially a helicopter)Colonel Buendia wrote: »Artillery is a completely different story. As for SRAAW, it's AT4 I guess? Did it really take you long to learn how to use the thing?
Mind if I ask what your own military background is?Colonel Buendia wrote: »I've been trained on 9K115 for a day instead of two. It was plenty, especially that for the most part of it it was practising to unpack and get the thing ready quickly enough and then pack it back. It does not involve a great deal of team work btw: the other person (or two) are mainly to carry the missiles (they are heavy) and get it ready to fire and reload quicker. The next day I successfully hit the target, from my first shot.
I've never used an 9k115 before so can't comment on it but I'd be fairly sceptical about being proficient in one after one day, no matter how simplistic USSR technology was.
That's a fair point: due to conscription, they would likely have some weapons training although the state of the current Ukranian military (notoriously poorly trained and equipped would cast doubts on how effective their training is. Especially when they were conscripts.Colonel Buendia wrote: »And again, the vast majority of male population in Ukraine, especially in predominantly working class areas like Donbas, have served in the armed forces and generally know the basic weapons like RPG or portable anti-tank missile systems. In this regard, you cannot really compare the civilian population of Ukraine and the Western Europe.
I'm well aware of who the Cossacks are. Regardless of how independent they are, they are also citizens and their own government is responsible for them.Colonel Buendia wrote: »You probably don't know very well who the Cossacks are. There are historically pretty much independent people, they don't ask for Putin's permission. A good part of the rebellion regions are the lands of Don Cossacks, and there are plenty of Cossacks living there now. There are very tight connections between Donbas, Lugansk and Russian Rostov, many Cossack families are divided by the border, so I think it's quite natural for people not to turn their back on their relatives and friends when they are at war. As for causing troubles, it's all very subjective.
The difference being that Western media takes place in countries with press freedom. Russia doesn't: it scores abysmally in Freedom House and Reporters Without BordersColonel Buendia wrote: »Russian propaganda would say that it's the Ukrainian Nazis in and around Ukrainian government and their US managers who are causing all the troubles; Western propaganda would say that it's evil Putin causes all this mess and if only Russia withdrew its spetsnaz, who are fighting against democratic Ukraine, from Donetsk and Lugansk, return Crimea back to Ukraine and move its armed forces to Siberia, the next day peace and order would return back to Ukraine and the reunited country will live happily ever after. What makes one piece of propaganda better than the other?
Actually he admitted that they deployed troops before the referendum sourceColonel Buendia wrote: »That's not my point. He does not need to admit what everyone knows for centuries. If I remember correctly, what he said on that occasion is that Russian forces were backing up the Crimean militia and the "polite people" during the referendum. Indeed, there were reports at that time that Russian forces are moving up north to the border (and so did Ukrainian army from the opposite direction).
There've been Russian troops in Crimea for centuries alright but that's a very different situation to them leaving their bases.
Above all, it shows that the seperatists were not local. Seriously, if there was enough to take over a building, surely at least one of them would know where their own city hall is. It shows some glaring weirdness on behalf of the separatists.Colonel Buendia wrote: »I know that it would be the last thing for me to believe in orchestrated foreign agents going to take control over a building and not knowing what building they are actually targeting, but that would be at expense of losing my faith in humanity and my own sanity. So were they retarded Russian agents? Or people from Crimea or Donbas who had never been to Kharkov before? Or maybe some locals high on heavy drugs? If you look closely at this episode, I think there is a simple and logical explanation. This opera thing was all over the news, and if I remember correctly, was reposted by US official in social networks. However, when you dig for the primary source it all ends in a facebook post by Slava Mavrichev, a young blogger from Kharkov. There are no other sources. Usually there are plenty of videos online, or at least photos, of much smaller protest events in Kharkov, but nothing this time (not counting a fake photo from February accompanying the news). Also there are usually recordings of the Zello channel used by the protesters to exchange the news and coordinate the effort, but nothing about the opera house on that day. By my standards, it clearly falls into the category of information warfare rather than something that actually took place.
If you're going to rely purely on primary sources, you're going to end up with all kinds of weirdness. I'm happy to rely on reputable secondary sources like The Economist (which also reported the Kharkiv occupation)
If you're going to disregard it as people aren't Tweeting about it, that's your call.
The difference being that the media ignore most of the hearsay. We're seeing in this thread people using videos of helicopters to try and prove what the Ukrainian government are up to but it doesn't really show much except a chopper flying around what could be anywhere.Colonel Buendia wrote: »If you look at Ukrainian mass media, never mind blogosphere, you'll see several news a day like this. A rifle that only Russian spetsnaz is using has been seized. A Russian officer phone conversation recorded. Another 20 GRU spetsnaz solders captured. Words used only by people in St.Petersburg were heard from the armed people in Slavyansk. All have potential to make a headline in Western media (and some of them do) but all luck any proof.Colonel Buendia wrote: »In Crimea they have a naval base for which they have no alternative in the Black Sea, and mostly Russian population that was sick of forced Ukrainisation for the past two decades. What's in Donbas or Lugansk?
So he might have interest in Ukraine as a friendly neighbour and an ally, that is quite likely I think. Taking Ukraine, or its part, to the Russian Federation might, or might not have benefits for Putin, but definitely has serious drawbacks. Interest in Ukraine as place to waste money, lifes of his soldiers and offices, and his own approval rating on a military operation with potential partisan warfare in Western, Central and maybe even some Eastern parts of Ukraine? Definitely not. In addition to that, time works for Putin now. With the awaited economical and political collapse of Ukraine, the longer he waits, more chances he would have greater percentage of Ukrainian population disappointed in EU association and supporting pro-Custom Union and pro-Eurasian Economic Union future for Ukraine.
On the other hand, US interests are totally the other way round. Cui bono?
A mostly Russian population after the ethnic cleansing of the Tatars. I'm not exactly what Putin's game is but he engaged in flagrant aggression and annexed territory with even China refusing to back him.0 -
This part "russian nation itself has its historical roots there" got me thinking.
of course, not like kosovo ever was an independent state back then...the region we now call kosovo has gone through many turbulent centuries, even long before the 16th, and many nations have been involved over time - serbs, turks, bulgars and others - yet it has always been predominantly serbian, certainly serbian-dominated for centuries, and the serbian nation itself has its historical roots there...the idea of the kosovras as a distinct people or kosovo as a nation or an independent state are inventions of the late 20th century...all of which explains a lot...
yes, now that you mention it...there seems to have been a trend to “invent” peoples and nations going on for a while...the palestinians come to mind among many others...think in the case of kosovo religion was the main factor above all others, and i see the fact that kosovo is an independent state nowadays as more of a freak of history than anything else...but then i am not a kosovo expert and might just not know all the details...and i do apologize to any kosovars and palestinians i may just have insulted...
but hey, maybe bavaria should go for independence as well....the necessary separatist movement is certainly in place...0 -
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Didn't you see my videos about celebrations in Crimea just after the vote?If you can show any widespread public support or opinion polls, that'd be great. Otherwise, you're just projecting your own personal bias.
And a video of Ukrainian girl who was nearly beaten up on the streets of Simferopol, just for wearing Ukrainian flag?
It wasn't me who started referring to NIWhat's your obsession with Northern Ireland? You keep mentioning it without any context so I'm really struggling to see your point.0 -
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That's what I'm calling informational warfare.I presume this is either from Chechnya or more likely Georgia 2008 when about a dozen aircraft were shot down
Very unlikely it's Ukraine - no reports of it anywhere
Of course if you watch only BBC & CNN you probably won't see it.
Try to check out different sources.
The difference is that I watch media from both sides, and you only from the one.
I do speak Russian and can tell that the guys speak Russian with Ukrainian accent, and again they are not hiding they names, as they are locals of Slavyansk.0 -
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Didn't you see my videos about celebrations in Crimea just after the vote?
And a video of Ukrainian girl who was nearly beaten up on the streets of Simferopol, just for wearing Ukrainian flag?
It wasn't me who started referring to NI
Oh, I don't deny that some Crimeans support unification. However, this does not detract from the fact that a sham referendum took place.
Who was she beaten by? Russians?
NOrthern Ireland got brought up as you kept going on about how it was illegal for an army to be used against its own citizens. You then kept bringing it up in non-sequiter posts.That's what I'm calling informational warfare.
Of course if you watch only BBC & CNN you probably won't see it.
Try to check out different sources.
The difference is that I watch media from both sides, and you only from the one.
I do speak Russian and can tell that the guys speak Russian with Ukrainian accent, and again they are not hiding they names, as they are locals of Slavyansk.
Ah yeah, the notoriously biased CNN and BBC. If I was quoting WND or Fox you might have a point but if you're going to disregard the reporting of established and reputable media in favour of random Youtube videos then be my guest.
I follow the coverage given by RT and Globalresearch.ca and it's utterly bizarre. Still, I can't expect much else from a Kremlin funded TV station and an "NGO" that is full of cranks and apologists for the Milosevic and Gaddaffi regimes.
Ah so you're engaging in Whataboutery. Sound.What exactly is "ethnic cleansing" is it like "cleansing" of Native Americans? Then what? Should the non-native US crowd leave back to Europe?
For what it's worth, I agree that the ethnic cleansing of native-Americans was utterly reprehensible but the ethnic cleansing of the Tatars took place in living memory. It's basically what Israel is doing: annexing land then claiming "Ah sure, we've been here a while like!"
I'm surprised you don't know what ethnic cleansing is given your recent quoting of the Hague regulations and war crimes.
Here's a good article on it anyway0 -
They used "SA-18 Grouse" stolen from Ukranian army in 2 cases and 1 strongly damaged by machine gun.He's not claiming thatthey're Spetsnaz operatives but that they are well armed enough to shoot down three helicopters in a few days. These weren't lucky assault rifle shots, no matter how dated an Mi-24 is.
Both correct. Almoust all man had Ukranian military traning but that training is very poore as Ukraninan army is almoust nothing. That's why helicopters pilots also not trained and do stupid like hanging long time without move.That's a fair point: due to conscription, they would likely have some weapons training although the state of the current Ukranian military (notoriously poorly trained and equipped would cast doubts on how effective their training is. Especially when they were conscripts.
Both sides is very bad in military terms. Rebels are not trained well as most of them just civils. Not enaugh weapon. Lot of them use hunting rifles. Ukraninan army is bad trained not motivated to attack own citizen. Also weapon is in very old and bad condition. Only nazi forces are active but they are mostly not trained at all.
government is never responce for citizen activity except they are in official mission.I'm well aware of who the Cossacks are. Regardless of how independent they are, they are also citizens and their own government is responsible for them.
1.Putin never said that.Actually he admitted that they deployed troops before the referendum
There've been Russian troops in Crimea for centuries alright but that's a very different situation to them leaving their bases.
2."Navy base" is actually lot of objects in different places. Troops can move between them and around by agreement.0 -
[QUOTE=Lockstep;90276718
Actually he admitted that they deployed troops before the referendum [/QUOTE]
Did you hear word 'deployment' there? Can you read lips?
This is what propaganda is for.
Another good example:
during the press conference Putin was explaining the terrible condition of Crimea's resorts during Ukraininan rule, he was saying:
-We were asking hotel owners how could the tourists stay in such terrible places like that? And they were answering:
-Oh, there were mostly miners from Donbass, and all they need is a shot of vodka and leave for the beach.
And what Ukraininan media did, the cut the begin of his conversation and leave:
Putin: "miners from Donbass, and they need nothing but a shot of vodka and leave for the beach"0 -
Colonel Buendia wrote: »Ukrainian army does not have modern helicopters, the Mi-8 and Mi-24 are seriously outdated as attack helicopters as they are easy targets when they are alone.
Neither does the Syrian military - yet aggregate forces of over 50,000 FSA (ex military) and various rebel and jihadist groups, some backed by billions from Saudi and Qatar seem to be having much less success that these militia groups in Ukraine
There's been protests around Kiev for months, those protesters had shields, helmets, some even managed to scrape together pistols and air rifles - we thought they were organised
Yet seemingly overnight this militia in the East sprung up, heavily armed from the get-go, seized multiple buildings in several towns and cities in a surprisingly coordinated operation and continue to give the Ukrainian military a difficult fight
Not sure which was faster - the sudden Russia annexation of Crimea or this militia0 -
Source?They used "SA-18 Grouse" stolen from Ukranian army in 2 cases and 1 strongly damaged by machine gun.
Actually, it is. If a government allows its citizens to head abroad to destabilise another government and does nothing to stop them, it has a responsibility.government is never responce for citizen activity except they are in official mission.1.Putin never said that.
2."Navy base" is actually lot of objects in different places. Troops can move between them and around by agreement.
Actually he did.
Link
I'm not sure what you mean by your second point, can you expand on it please?
See above.Did you hear word 'deployment' there? Can you read lips?
Mysterious unmarked but heavily soldiers in Crimea appeared during the referendum. leaving aside how dodgy the whole thing wasThis is what propaganda is for.
Another good example:
during the press conference Putin was explaining the terrible condition of Crimea's resorts during Ukraininan rule, he was saying:
-We were asking hotel owners how could the tourists stay in such terrible places like that? And they were answering:
-Oh, there were mostly miners from Donbass, and all they need is a shot of vodka and leave for the beach.
And what Ukraininan media did, the cut the begin of his conversation and leave:
Putin: "miners from Donbass, and they need nothing but a shot of vodka and leave for the beach"
What a bizarre and off-topic statement. Hitting Ukraine where it hurts. THE STATE OF THEIR HOTELS. SEND IN THE UN.0 -
What a nice joke!
Russia estimated that the Georgian Air Force lost three Su-25 strike aircraft and two L-29 jets.[334] Three AN-2 aircraft were destroyed during the bombardment of Marneuli Air Force base.
Russia has officially confirmed the loss of three Su-25 strike aircraft and one Tu-22M3 long-range bomber,[308]
That's not including other aircraft shot down0 -
RTE reporting that Putin has said Russian troops are pulling back from it's borders, plus he's asked Separatists to leave the buildings they've occupied in Ukrainian cities/towns so talks can proceed. NATO General has said there is no sign yet of Russian troop movements away from it's border with the Ukraine.0
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She wasn't beaten, mocked, i'd say. All of the people there are locals. Just a street of Simferopol - capital of Crimea (btw I was there recently)Oh, I don't deny that some Crimeans support unification. However, this does not detract from the fact that a sham referendum took place.
Who was she beaten by? Russians?
Having the army standing on the streets to support the order and running a military operation with full use of the air & ground forces - is a bit of difference isn't it. That what I was trying to explain.NOrthern Ireland got brought up as you kept going on about how it was illegal for an army to be used against its own citizens. You then kept bringing it up in non-sequiter posts.
'the random Youtube videos' have more creditability than absolute nonsence showed on CNN:
Ah yeah, the notoriously biased CNN and BBC. If I was quoting WND or Fox you might have a point but if you're going to disregard the reporting of established and reputable media in favour of random Youtube videos then be my guest..
There was a recent story broadcasted by CNN (don't want to search but it can be found), when the same guy in the hospital was reported by Russian news channels as a different origin, but with the same name. The CNN claimed that this is Moscow propaganda showing the same guy in different hospital reports, using the same name!
First of all, don't you find it's quire weird for the propaganda to report the person as belonging to different opposing sides with the same name?
And what actually has happened: the guy traveled from Germany where he got some good sum of money from his sponsors to support pro-maidan fighers, but he got robbed and beated by some other group, but when he ended up in a hospital controlled by pro-Russians he report his name and himself as a pro-Russian activist - and this was recorded in first interviews, then the witnesses confirmed that they've seen him with pro-maidan forces, and he was questioned by rebels, and finally admit that he was helping pro-maidan, and this is when second interview were coming from. All the information was his worlds, nothing was added by reporters. And if CNN is saying this is a lie, then they should blame the only person him there is nothing to do with Russian reporters. They just conveyed his words0 -
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Quite the turn-around but very good news if it holds0
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That's 's a good indication that they really have a supports from locals.Neither does the Syrian military - yet aggregate forces of over 50,000 FSA (ex military) and various rebel and jihadist groups, some backed by billions from Saudi and Qatar seem to be having much less success that these militia groups in Ukraine0 -
What exactly is your point here, that pro-Ukrainian people are being beaten in Crimea?She wasn't beaten, mocked, i'd say. All of the people there are locals. Just a street of Simferopol - capital of Crimea (btw I was there recently)
Yes but when the rebels have the means to shoot down helicopters, you know you're not in regular civil disturbance mode (which the cops are meant to deal with)Having the army standing on the streets to support the order and running a military operation with full use of the air & ground forces - is a bit of difference isn't it. That what I was trying to explain.'the random Youtube videos' have more creditability than absolute nonsence showed on CNN:
There was a recent story broadcasted by CNN (don't want to search but it can be found), when the same guy in the hospital was reported by Russian news channels as a different origin, but with the same name. The CNN claimed that this is Moscow propaganda showing the same guy in different hospital reports, using the same name!
First of all, don't you find it's quire weird for the propaganda to report the person as belonging to different opposing sides with the same name?
And what actually has happened: the guy traveled from Germany where he got some good sum of money from his sponsors to support pro-maidan fighers, but he got robbed and beated by some other group, but when he ended up in a hospital controlled by pro-Russians he report his name and himself as a pro-Russian activist - and this was recorded in first interviews, then the witnesses confirmed that they've seen him with pro-maidan forces, and he was questioned by rebels, and finally admit that he was helping pro-maidan, and this is when second interview were coming from. All the information was his worlds, nothing was added by reporters. And if CNN is saying this is a lie, then they should blame the only person him there is nothing to do with Russian reporters. They just conveyed his words
Oh yes, there's definetely propaganda going on but I'd still support things like the BBC or CNN over say, random youtube clips or someone's blog.
It goes both ways by the way0 -
Inside. You can trust or not. Up to youSource?
It's probably you wish but it's not true. Any person can do whatever if it's not against law. And even law works only inside jurisdiction.Actually, it is. If a government allows its citizens to head abroad to destabilise another government and does nothing to stop them, it has a responsibility.
No. I'll try to translate what hi said. "In Crimea people coul do it easier as they fill support". Some press convert it that "Putin confirmed russian forces in Crimea".Actually he did.
Navy base in crimea is a lot of objects not only bay with ships. It's power plant stations, beacons, locators, airfields plus non military object like towns for families etc. That objects in different locations some far enaugh. The troops (by the way up to 25000) can move between them for do tasks. Some of that movement shows in press as "russian invasion".I'm not sure what you mean by your second point, can you expand on it please?
The "green polite people" is not officially army soldiers. That what can be 100% sure. Some of them definetelly former soldiers.0 -
No. I'll try to translate what hi said. "In Crimea people coul do it easier as they fill support". Some press convert it that "Putin confirmed russian forces in Crimea".
Putin directly admitted Russian troops were in Crimea before the referendum
Here it is from a Russian source
http://rt.com/news/crimea-defense-russian-soldiers-108/Navy base in crimea is a lot of objects not only bay with ships. It's power plant stations, beacons, locators, airfields plus non military object like towns for families etc. That objects in different locations some far enaugh. The troops (by the way up to 25000) can move between them for do tasks. Some of that movement shows in press as "russian invasion".
The "green polite people" is not officially army soldiers. That what can be 100% sure. Some of them definetelly former soldiers.
Then what's the explanation for Russian troops masquerading as militia units and illegally surrounding/capturing Ukrainian bases0 -
Then I won't. No offense to you but anonymous internet sources aren't something I like to base my views on.Inside. You can trust or not. Up to you
Yes but states usually take a dim view of their citizens fomenting dissent in other countries. Britain is taking action at its citizens for heading to fight in Syria for example.It's probably you wish but it's not true. Any person can do whatever if it's not against law. And even law works only inside jurisdiction.No. I'll try to translate what hi said. "In Crimea people coul do it easier as they fill support". Some press convert it that "Putin confirmed russian forces in Crimea".
Navy base in crimea is a lot of objects not only bay with ships. It's power plant stations, beacons, locators, airfields plus non military object like towns for families etc. That objects in different locations some far enaugh. The troops (by the way up to 25000) can move between them for do tasks. Some of that movement shows in press as "russian invasion".
The "green polite people" is not officially army soldiers. That what can be 100% sure. Some of them definetelly former soldiers.
Moving around is fine but its when there are well armed soldiers backing local militias that serious questions need to be asked.0 -
Exactly correct. While rare, and AFAIR only happens in Ireland in one circumstance, is a legal sanction that can be imposed on a countrie's citizens outside their own jurisdiction. However, there is the on the other hand the precedent of mercenary companies (eg Blackwater) which fight/advise overseas which (at a guess) are legal.Yes but states usually take a dim view of their citizens fomenting dissent in other countries. Britain is taking action at its citizens for heading to fight in Syria for example.0 -
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