Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Jonny7

As I'm concerned the several hundred separatists in the east and several hundred hardcore members of far-right groups in the west are cut from the same cloth

and they are both being played to ferment instability in a country that doesn't want or need it

gandalf

Jonny7 wrote: »

As I'm concerned the several hundred separatists in the east and several hundred hardcore members of far-right groups in the west are cut from the same cloth

and they are both being played to ferment instability in a country that doesn't want or need it

They are totally and utterly being played.

They are marionettes being manipulated in Vladamir's big dangerous ego driven Puppet theatre.

comongethappy

DubVelo wrote: »

The most fascist regime this side of North Korea calling others fascists and Neo-Nazis is so feckin' bizzare.

Nominally the likes of North Korea & Belarus are left/communist/Socialist.

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a more right wing country than Russia.

Calling the Kiev government fascist has more irony than a lorry of girders.
The double standard seemingly far beyond the Kremlin & its avid supporters.



On another note, terrific turnout for that "referendum" at the weekend.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-a-country-is-born--after-a-vote-by-10063-per-cent-of-its-population-9359411.html

Wurzelbert

comongethappy wrote: »

Nominally the likes of North Korea & Belarus are left/communist/Socialist.

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a more right wing country than Russia.

Calling the Kiev government fascist has more irony than a lorry of girders.
The double standard seemingly far beyond the Kremlin & its avid supporters.

[...]

imo the whole left vs. right thing doesn’t really apply anymore and i think the words “left and “right” are used far too liberally nowadays, as are “fascist”, “nazi” and “communist” and some others...

DubVelo

Wurzelbert wrote: »

imo the whole left vs. right thing doesn’t really apply anymore and i think the words “left and “right” are used far too liberally nowadays, as are “fascist”, “nazi” and “communist” and some others...

'Fascist' would be pretty spot on though when applied to the Putin regime.

comongethappy

Wurzelbert wrote: »

imo the whole left vs. right thing doesn’t really apply anymore and i think the words “left and “right” are used far too liberally nowadays, as are “fascist”, “nazi” and “communist” and some others...

Fair enough.

Labels have their use of course.
However its what a government does to its people & others that counts.

Elmer Blooker

comongethappy wrote: »

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a more right wing country than Russia.

Please explain further, I know what you think of Putin and his control of the media (so we're told anyway?) and gay rights etc....
I would think Ireland is up there as one of the more right wing countries in Europe. We've had two identical right wing political parties in power since the foundation of the state, in any other country the "Labour" party (or Social Democrats on the continent) are centre left, here they are no different to the two biggest parties. The tragic Savita case shows the conservatism and backwardness of the laws in this country, an unbelievable 49.9% of the electorate opposed divorce and it wasn't in the 1950s, it was the 1990s!! What's health care and education like in Russia? Is it only for the well off like here? Perhaps you could enlighten me?
Prepare for Fianna Fail's comeback in the 2016 general election - maybe "democracy" should be banned in Ireland?

Wurzelbert

DubVelo wrote: »

'Fascist' would be pretty spot on though when applied to the Putin regime.

guess that depends on how one understands fascism and putin...fascist or imperialistic or whatever people call him, i think it’s an oversimplification either way...

jimeryan22

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Please explain further, I know what you think of Putin and his control of the media (so we're told anyway?) and gay rights etc....
I would think Ireland is up there as one of the more right wing countries in Europe. We've had two identical right wing political parties in power since the foundation of the state, in any other country the "Labour" party (or Social Democrats on the continent) are centre left, here they are no different to the two biggest parties. The tragic Savita case shows the conservatism and backwardness of the laws in this country, an unbelievable 49.9% of the electorate opposed divorce and it wasn't in the 1950s, it was the 1990s!! What's health care and education like in Russia? Is it only for the well off like here? Perhaps you could enlighten me?
Prepare for Fianna Fail's comeback in the 2016 general election - maybe "democracy" should be banned in Ireland?

The usual Russia's bad, America and Europe is good ****e.. Putins a savage dictator just waiting to slaughter millions of course and take over the world...
Well we'll see won't we..?
Just hope we see a load of retractions once it doesn't happen..
The anti Russian sentiment on every one of these threads about Ukraine is a discrace..

gandalf

jimeryan22 wrote: »

The usual Russia's bad, America and Europe is good ****e.. Putins a savage dictator just waiting to slaughter millions of course and take over the world...
Well we'll see won't we..?
Just hope we see a load of retractions once it doesn't happen..
The anti Russian sentiment on every one of these threads about Ukraine is a discrace..

When did I say America was good?

I can't criticise Russia without being labeled pro-American?

What Putin is doing is wrong? He is meddling in the internal affairs of another country and is using arguments that mirror those of another "strong man" 76 years ago.

He is actively supporting a situation where people have been killed and if things get out of control many many more will pay the same price for his brinkmanship.

comongethappy

Its the likes of Elmer that can't fathom that disliking one regime is NOT explicit support for an opposing regime.

Can't a girl dislike many regimes?

Jiimmy, you find the "Russia bad, America good" attitude a disgrace, as you said.

Though such black & white views are rare here, can you not see the explicit anti-America / Pro-Putin attitude of Elmer, Eggy & Na1 as being no different?

jimeryan22

gandalf wrote: »

When did I say America was good?

I can't criticise Russia without being labeled pro-American?

What Putin is doing is wrong? He is meddling in the internal affairs of another country and is using arguments that mirror those of another "strong man" 76 years ago.

He is actively supporting a situation where people have been killed and if things get out of control many many more will pay the same price for his brinkmanship.

When did I accuse you of making any statement...? I did not.
In fact if you read my post I said the sentiment.. I directed it nobody.
And what is America and Europe doing then...? Love the way this is all so 1 sided
So the US didn't spend money giving it to NGO's to help unsettle the place no..?

jimeryan22

comongethappy wrote: »

Its the likes of Elmer that can't fathom that disliking one regime is NOT explicit support for an opposing regime.

Can't a girl dislike many regimes?

Jiimmy, you find the "Russia bad, America good" attitude a disgrace, as you said.

Though such black & white views are rare here, can you not see the explicit anti-America / Pro-Putin attitude of Elmer, Eggy & Na1 as being no different?

Sorry. Only saw this after my other reply... No I don't think that, because of the fact throughout the thread from day 1 the anti Russian sentiment has been quite clear.. I condone putins actions as much as I condone our lots activity from the west... It's as black and white as 2 major powers still on the same old trip of serving their own interests, Certainly not the interests of Ukraine... Everyone here seems to think they are impartial.. But they are hardly that when just spitting out rhetoric that it's all just Russia.. When we know it's not.. 2 to tango an all that

gandalf

jimeryan22 wrote: »

When did I accuse you of making any statement...? I did not.

You didn't directly of course but you implied that those who are criticising Russia are all pro-US/ pro-Eu when that is not the case.

In fact if you read my post I said the sentiment.. I directed it nobody.
And what is America and Europe doing then...? Love the way this is all so 1 sided
So the US didn't spend money giving it to NGO's to help unsettle the place no..?

Can you provide links to this NGO funding you're talking about (apologies if it has been posted already in the thread but it is a big one with a lot of mis-information in it to trawl through!).

I think those who are as long in the tooth as I realise that every player in this situation has an agenda and in most cases the welfare of ordinary Ukrainians is quite far down their list of priorities. However only one player from the information I have seen (from numerous sources) is actively sending in military assets and support to destabilise the situation to the extent that people are now losing their lives and that is the one I am directing most of my ire at and I cannot understand others who cannot see these actions for what they are.

jimeryan22

gandalf wrote: »

You didn't directly of course but you implied that those who are criticising Russia are all pro-US/ pro-Eu when that is not the case.



Can you provide links to this NGO funding you're talking about (apologies if it has been posted already in the thread but it is a big one with a lot of mis-information in it to trawl through!).

I think those who are as long in the tooth as I realise that every player in this situation has an agenda and in most cases the welfare of ordinary Ukrainians is quite far down their list of priorities. However only one player from the information I have seen (from numerous sources) is actively sending in military assets and support to destabilise the situation to the extent that people are now losing their lives and that is the one I am directing most of my ire at and I cannot understand others who cannot see these actions for what they are.

The links are back in the thread alright.. I'll try find them now for you..
Why was the head if the CIA there then by the way..?

jimeryan22

NGO source link..

http://www.ned.org/where-we-work/eurasia/ukraine

gandalf

jimeryan22 wrote: »

NGO source link..

http://www.ned.org/where-we-work/eurasia/ukraine

Thanks for that but tbh its hardly the equivalent of sending in troops and organising Ukrainian citizens to rise up and actively take arms against their government?

As for the CIA head you mentioned in your previous post he wouldn't be a concern to me. What would be a concern are the un-named operatives from numerous intelligence agencies active in the Ukraine especially given the destablisation in the East of the country.

jimeryan22

gandalf wrote: »

Thanks for that but tbh its hardly the equivalent of sending in troops and organising Ukrainian citizens to rise up and actively take arms against their government?

As for the CIA head you mentioned in your previous post he wouldn't be a concern to me. What would be a concern are the un-named operatives from numerous intelligence agencies active in the Ukraine especially given the destablisation in the East of the country.

Is it not..? Paying for somebody to do it for you rather than do it yourself is not the same..? Hmmm. Ok
And it's definately worrying you think the head of the CIA "secretly" under another name visiting the country in the height of tensions is nothing to worry about..
But fair enough

Elmer Blooker

comongethappy wrote: »

Its the likes of Elmer that can't fathom that disliking one regime is NOT explicit support for an opposing regime.

Can't a girl dislike many regimes?

Jiimmy, you find the "Russia bad, America good" attitude a disgrace, as you said.

Though such black & white views are rare here, can you not see the explicit anti-America / Pro-Putin attitude of Elmer, Eggy & Na1 as being no different?

I'm not 100% pro Putin, I just see him for what he is which is a "strong man" leader in the Russian tradition, something we don't really understand here in the west. It appears there is something in the Russian psyche that respects, almost demands a strong man in power - history shows that. It appears he is very popular in Russia especially among the new emerging middle class.
Gorbachev's experiment with western type politics or "Glasnost" in Russia failed miserably, Russia was humiliated by NATO and is now making a stand against the expansionist aggression of that organization in Ukraine and especially Crimea.
As for my "explicit" anti-America views? I would be grateful if they kept their noses out of European affairs, the EU can benefit from more trade with Russia and NOT less, that new middle class I mentioned will buy good quality Irish food - it's a huge market and getting bigger and will mean more jobs here.

gandalf

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Is it not..? Paying for somebody to do it for you rather than do it yourself is not the same..? Hmmm. Ok

LOL so sending in men with guns is the same as funding organisations who according to that link are involved with freedom of the press or democracy issues?

You really need to look at your priorities here.

And it's definately worrying you think the head of the CIA "secretly" under another name visiting the country in the height of tensions is nothing to worry about..
But fair enough

I would assume that the head of the CIA does not get his hands dirty personally so he alone would not be of concern to me.

If you read what I said you would have seen that I said "What would be a concern are the un-named operatives from numerous intelligence agencies active in the Ukraine especially given the destablisation in the East of the country. "

That statement covers, the US, Russian and all European players involved in this situation but again the only one of those players is directly involved in sending troops over a sovereign border and taking part in an illegal land grab and destabilisation project.

comongethappy

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

the EU can benefit from more trade with Russia

Why is trade with Russia good, yet a common trade area agreement with Ukraine an over-reach by the expansionist west?
(Which is what started the whole pi**ing contest originally).

Jonny7

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

What's health care and education like in Russia? Is it only for the well off like here? Perhaps you could enlighten me?

We live on average ten years longer than Russian men and the infant mortality in Ireland rate is half what it is in Russia. Our education system is globally ranked several places higher than the Russia education system.

The biggest difference is in politics really, they have, by our standards, a very authoritarian system, e.g. press freedom is very low, corruption is high, opposition is almost non-existent (many under house arrest etc), and freedom is speech is more controlled, for example the recent "blogger's law" signed in

Lockstep

Off the top of my head, Russia scores badly in the following areas:

It is corrupt

It has extremely poor press freedom

Democratic freedoms are atrocious

Then there's the whole issue of LGBT rights in Russia.
While Russia does have a good welfare system, oil and gas revenue account for half of its taxes so just what will happen if prices change are a huge cause of concern. It's social spending is not sustainable.

Wurzelbert

Jonny7 wrote: »

[...]
The biggest difference is [...], corruption is high, [...]

thank god there’s no corruption ireland...

comongethappy

Wurzelbert wrote: »

thank god there’s no corruption ireland...

Its a stretch to imply that corruption doesn't exist in Ireland.
That is not claimed.

You could accept that some countries are more corrupt than others.

jimeryan22

gandalf wrote: »

LOL so sending in men with guns is the same as funding organisations who according to that link are involved with freedom of the press or democracy issues?

You really need to look at your priorities here.



I would assume that the head of the CIA does not get his hands dirty personally so he alone would not be of concern to me.

If you read what I said you would have seen that I said "What would be a concern are the un-named operatives from numerous intelligence agencies active in the Ukraine especially given the destablisation in the East of the country. "

That statement covers, the US, Russian and all European players involved in this situation but again the only one of those players is directly involved in sending troops over a sovereign border and taking part in an illegal land grab and destabilisation project.

Priorities..? The NGOs helped start the Agro on the streets mate, armed agro I might add... And the protestors, not the various intelligence agencies you cite are who have been responsible for deaths.. Correct..? Not soldiers or intelligence people...

And with regards to the CIA boss that you so dismiss... Of course he wouldn't be getting his hands dirty.. Sure he's a pen pusher.. But he most likely would be there to "advise". I mean, "stir"

jimeryan22

comongethappy wrote: »

Its a stretch to imply that corruption doesn't exist in Ireland.
That is not claimed.

You could accept that some countries are more corrupt than others.

But according to locksteps last post with links.. It shows on the global corruption map as North America the least corrupt nation on the earth... That's just silly isn't it..? Cause it's not true
Also, you think our lot any less corrupt..? Yeah sure they only lied like **** scaremongering the country into voting yes on bail outs.. So they could bail out their buddy's banks with my money..
With the lie everywhere will collapse if we didn't... If that's not corruption. I don't know what is

Jonny7

Wurzelbert wrote: »

thank god there’s no corruption ireland...

No one mentioned that, the comparison is with Russia

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

Ireland #21
Russia #127

Jonny7

jimeryan22 wrote: »

But according to locksteps last post with links.. It shows on the global corruption map as North America the least corrupt nation on the earth... That's just silly isn't it..? Cause it's not true

Scroll down to the rankings

gandalf

jimeryan22 wrote: »

But according to locksteps last post with links.. It shows on the global corruption map as North America the least corrupt nation on the earth... That's just silly isn't it..? Cause it's not true
Also, you think our lot any less corrupt..? Yeah sure they only lied like **** scaremongering the country into voting yes on bail outs.. So they could bail out their buddy's banks with my money..
With the lie everywhere will collapse if we didn't... If that's not corruption. I don't know what is

Jaysus your rabid anti-Americanism is blinding you. According to the link Denmark is the least corrupt nation on the earth. The US is in 19th position.