Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

comongethappy

jimeryan22 wrote: »

But according to locksteps last post with links.. It shows on the global corruption map as North America the least corrupt nation on the earth... That's just silly isn't it..? Cause it's not true
Also, you think our lot any less corrupt..? Yeah sure they only lied like **** scaremongering the country into voting yes on bail outs.. So they could bail out their buddy's banks with my money..
With the lie everywhere will collapse if we didn't... If that's not corruption. I don't know what is

You didn't read the link.

Yes I do believe Ireland is not particularly corrupt relative to the rest the world.
We experience very little corruption going about our daily lives compared to most of the world.

Not sure why you are defending Russia in this regard?

People don't just make up these corruption or press freedom indexes.

Lockstep

Noone is saying Ireland is free from corruption. However, to compare this with a corrupt morass like Russia is just being obtuse.

jimeryan22

Apologies to all for not reading chart properly first before my comments...
My mistake..

to whoever said anti american.. How many times can I say..? I am no such thing.. But I'm also not blatantly pro Russian.. Or anti Russian..

I just don't buy into the whole big bad Russia, and perfect picture of democracy we call the west.. What you mean is. We're better shielded from the corruption in our neck of the world, not really that there's any less of it

Lockstep

The west isn't perfect by any means (particularly the US and its foreign policy) but personally, I'd much, much prefer to live in a Western state than Russia.

Wurzelbert

Jonny7 wrote: »

No one mentioned that, the comparison is with Russia

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

Ireland #21
Russia #127

of course….wasn’t all serious, just found it funny when the fact that corruption is high in russia was listed as one of the biggest differences between the two countries…and of course corruption is not something you can measure anyway, this index is based on “expert opinion” i.e. politics and all comes into it, not like rock-hard data exactly…

jimeryan22

Lockstep wrote: »

The west isn't perfect by any means (particularly the US and its foreign policy) but personally, I'd much, much prefer to live in a Western state than Russia.

Finally, Worded in such a way I can actually agree... Yes, I would rather live in the west too.. But I won't justify or condone things done in "our" name that I don't agree with.. Also I won't pretend we live in this bastion of tranquility, but also I won't put down every member of Russia because of the fact they're unlucky enough to have these ****heads running the place for the last so many years...
When they finally catch up with bush and Blair and the likes and lock them up, I wonder will we still think of ourselves as better than the rest

DubVelo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Apologies to all for not reading chart properly first before my comments...
My mistake..

to whoever said anti american.. How many times can I say..? I am no such thing.. But I'm also not blatantly pro Russian.. Or anti Russian..

I just don't buy into the whole big bad Russia, and perfect picture of democracy we call the west.. What you mean is. We're better shielded from the corruption in our neck of the world, not really that there's any less of it

What's also better is that here we're free to bitch and moan about the corruption, free to publish pieces about it in the media, free to lobby for change and free to run for elections and do something about it ourselves.

Regarding 'big bad Russia' I suggest you spend a little time reading Russian media, bearing in mind there is no longer a free press there and what you are reading is basically the voice of the Kremlin. And also the only voice most Russians may hear.

Pravda, Moscow Times, RT.com and ITAR-TASS should get you started. All have english language content.

Elmer Blooker

Corruption comes in different forms, in less developed countries the corrupt system is enforced through the barrel of a gun whether it be secret police or the army, here in the free and democratic west we are more refined and its generally done by the stroke of a pen by a cabal of bankers, big business etc,
Where do you think our water and property taxes are going?

comongethappy wrote: »

Why is trade with Russia good, yet a common trade area agreement with Ukraine an over-reach by the expansionist west?
(Which is what started the whole pi**ing contest originally).

The industrial heartland of Ukraine is in the east has been an intrinsic part of the Soviet/Russian economy for decades - long before the EU even existed. Western business interests covet the region.
If it was the other way around and Eastern Ukraine was an area of poor unproductive farmland rather than an area of heavy industry and mineral wealth then this referendum would be legal and of course recognised as "international law"
NATO membership comes after EU membership and next would be Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan to join the club??

jimeryan22

It all becomes clearer as the days go on.........Money,money,money,money..

http://burisma.com/hunter-biden-joins-the-team-of-burisma-holdings/

Oh what a coincidence...!!!

Elmer Blooker

Mr. Biden has experience in public service and foreign policy. He is a director for the U.S. Global Leadership Coalition, The Center for National Policy, and the Chairman’s Advisory Board for the National Democratic Institute. Having served as a Senior Vice President at MBNA bank, former U.S. President Bill Clinton appointed him an Executive Director of E-Commerce Policy Coordination under Secretary of Commerce William Daley. Mr. Biden served as Honorary Co-Chair of the 2008 Obama-Biden Inaugural Committee.

clearly appointed by Washington and the gullible Ukrainians have no say in the matter - serves them right!

jimeryan22

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

clearly appointed by Washington and the gullible Ukrainians have no say in the matter - serves them right!

That's just wild conspiracy theory that the US has anything to do with this Ukraine thing..!!! Hahahahahahaha. Yeah right..

Jonny7

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Where do you think our water and property taxes are going?

To the government

NATO membership comes after EU membership and next would be Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan to join the club??

We're not a member of NATO, nor is Malta, Cyprus, Finland, Sweden, Austria

clearly appointed by Washington and the gullible Ukrainians have no say in the matter - serves them right!

He's a private citizen and can work where he wants, reading his bio it's not surprising to see why the company would want him

Of course if you have evidence that the United States government forced a Ukrainian company to hire this man, and that they had no say in the matter, please share

jimeryan22

Jonny7 wrote: »

To the government



We're not a member of NATO, nor is Malta, Cyprus, Finland, Sweden, Austria



He's a private citizen and can work where he wants, reading his bio it's not surprising to see why the company would want him

Of course if you have evidence that the United States government forced a Ukrainian company to hire this man, and that they had no say in the matter, please share

Jonny, Why put words in people's mouths...? Never said forced..
But you don't find it a little strange/coincidental that the Vice President of the United States of America's son has suddenly been brought into the largest gas company in Ukraine..????
Dirty under the table deal I'd be thinking, not made take him on...

Jonny7

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Jonny, Why put words in people's mouths...? Never said forced..

Responding to this "clearly appointed by Washington and the gullible Ukrainians have no say in the matter"

Strange, I am pretty sure the company would have a say in whom they hire. If he's being forced on them by Washington, I'd sure like to know how, because that's pretty damn interesting

But you don't find it a little strange/coincidental that the Vice President of the United States of America's son has suddenly been brought into the largest gas company in Ukraine..????

Yet the company states "R. Hunter Biden will be in charge of the Holdings’ legal unit and will provide support for the Company among international organizations"

Have you read his bio? I couldn't think of a company who wouldn't want this guy, especially one that is looking to expand internationally

jimeryan22

Jonny7 wrote: »

Responding to this "clearly appointed by Washington and the gullible Ukrainians have no say in the matter"

Strange, I am pretty sure the company would have a say in whom they hire. If he's being forced on them by Washington, I'd sure like to know how, because that's pretty damn interesting



Yet the company states "R. Hunter Biden will be in charge of the Holdings’ legal unit and will provide support for the Company among international organizations"

Have you read his bio? I couldn't think of a company who wouldn't want this guy, especially one that is looking to expand internationally

I read his bio alright... Sure I posted the article... Easy to have an education like that though when you come from his background...
But you still don't find it coincidental..? At all..? Even after daddy was only over a couple of weeks ago.. If he was anyone else but joe bidens son, I don't think it would be questionable at all

jimeryan22

By the way jonny... I like the way you can disagree with someone and not end up in an arguement... Namely you don't be rude just because you have a different opinion.. Respect mate
Others should take note..

Elmer Blooker

Jonny7 wrote: »

To the government

We're not a member of NATO, nor is Malta, Cyprus, Finland, Sweden, Austria


He's a private citizen and can work where he wants, reading his bio it's not surprising to see why the company would want him

Of course if you have evidence that the United States government forced a Ukrainian company to hire this man, and that they had no say in the matter, please share

Yes to the government but NOT on services which is where one would expect their taxes to go. Come on, we all know where these never ending stealth taxes are going!

Who's says they're a Ukrainian company? US business interests moving into a country that they have just destabilized (oops! I meant to say "regime change") has never happened before?
You say the company wanted him - please share.

Jonny7

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Yes to the government but NOT on services which is where one would expect their taxes to go. Come on, we all know where these never ending stealth taxes are going!

Where?

Who's says they're a Ukrainian company?

They do

US business interests moving into a country

The son of the vice-president is taking up a job in a Ukrainian company. Where I work has two dozen directors of all nationalities

Many countries have business interests in Ukraine, it's the general nature of international business

Here's us sending a trade mission to Ukraine
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/enterprise-irelands-ukraine-mission-26382628.html

You say the company wanted him - please share.

“The company’s strategy is aimed at the strongest concentration of professional staff and the introduction of best corporate practices, and we’re delighted that Mr. Biden is joining us to help us achieve these goals,” Alan Apter, Burisma Holdings’ chairman of the board of directors, said in a statement

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/05/hunter-biden-ukraine-gas-board-106631.html#ixzz31jGq7GgK

jimeryan22

Ooops....

http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/rumors-of-american-mercenaries-in-ukraine-spread-to-germany-1.283154

Wurzelbert

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Ooops....

http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/rumors-of-american-mercenaries-in-ukraine-spread-to-germany-1.283154

yeah, it's making the round in germany and all the way into government circles

Jonny7

The source is Bild, German version of the Sun, the "rumours" have been circulating since March, before we even knew there were separatists in the east

Perhaps the first thing the new interim government did was hire "400" loudmouth gung-ho American mercenaries and keep the whole thing a perfect secret without any journalists copping on or a single Ukrainian soldier leaking .. considering many have Russia sympathies..

I have to say if true it's an incredible feat of organisation and secrecy

Jonny7

Why has this thread turned into conspiracy central all of a sudden?

jimeryan22

Jonny7 wrote: »

The source is Bild, German version of the Sun, the "rumours" have been circulating since March, before we even knew there were separatists in the east

Perhaps the first thing the new interim government did was hire "400" loudmouth gung-ho American mercenaries and keep the whole thing a perfect secret without any journalists copping on or a single Ukrainian soldier leaking .. considering many have Russia sympathies..

I have to say if true it's an incredible feat of organisation and secrecy

American Merc's are nothing like ya average yank jonny... Walking round loud and proud, smoking cigars, and talking loudly...

jimeryan22

Jonny7 wrote: »

Why has this thread turned into conspiracy central all of a sudden?

Yawn...!!! That term, so boring at this stage jonny.. Come on think up your own term instead of just spitting out the most clique term ever made up by a government

Elmer Blooker

Wurzelbert wrote: »

yeah, it's making the round in germany and all the way into government circles

This is good news! I always knew the Germans weren't keen on sanctions against Russia (maybe a few token sanctions just to please the yank$)
Are Merkel's phone calls still being recorded?

Jonny7

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

This is good news! I always knew the Germans weren't keen on sanctions against Russia (maybe a few token sanctions just to please the yank$)
Are Merkel's phone calls still being recorded?

A few days ago France and Germany announced further sanctions for Russia if the elections don't go ahead

Elmer Blooker

Jonny7 wrote: »

Why has this thread turned into conspiracy central all of a sudden?

In the 1970s anyone who said the US were involved in the coup in Chile (and the thousands of murders that followed) were no doubt called conspiracy theorists. Its now known that a US company called ITT were behind it but look how long it took for the truth to come out. The CIA obviously used the company as a front.
40 years ago I know but nothing has changed.

Involvement in 1973 Pinochet coup in Chile[edit]
In 1970, ITT owned 70% of Chitelco (the Chilean Telephone Company) and funded El Mercurio, a Chilean right-wing newspaper. Declassified documents released by the CIA in 2000 suggest that the company financially helped opponents of Salvador Allende's government prepare a military coup

More sanctions? So you're telling me that Germany wants it's gas supply cut off. I wouldn't pay much heed to the French - the clock stopped for them in 1945!

Jonny7

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

More sanctions? So you're telling me that Germany wants it's gas supply cut off.

At the height of the Cold War, the gas still flowed, why? because it's just as important to the Russians as it is to the Germans or other countries

Unfortunately for Russia, recent actions are driving many of it's customers to start contemplating different suppliers

One country is already hurriedly building a liquified gas terminal to bypass Russian supply, with several others likely to follow

I wouldn't pay much heed to the French - the clock stopped for them in 1945!

There's 22 billion in trade between them, and considering France is the larger and healthier economy - Russia will not want to push European countries too far, Moscow has already projected only 1% growth this year, possibly as low as 0%

Jonny7

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Yawn...!!! That term, so boring at this stage jonny.. Come on think up your own term instead of just spitting out the most clique term ever made up by a government

Even the use of the phrase is a conspiracy

jimeryan22

Jonny7 wrote: »

Even the use of the phrase is a conspiracy

Haha. Clutching at straws jonny