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Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

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    #1442
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Ill answer this for you no problem... In my own humble opinion Putin is playing the long game, he's not stupid enough like everyone seems to think to just go invading Ukraine, well I can't see it.. I more see him sitting back, let the IMF **** Ukraine like everywhere else and wait to dig them out as it were.. My opinion of course.. But I don't see Putin making moves like what's been made out everywhere.. You tell me seeing as you are so sure..?

    And is he right?


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    #1443
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    gandalf wrote: »
    And Russia carved up Poland in agreement with the Germans? Your point is?

    You have heard of Katyn. It appears that you are suffering from selective history amnesia.

    You also should note that I said the US are not going to make a mistake again that costs them more lives in the long run. Its better for them to face down the Nationalistic Bully now rather than a more emboldened one later ;)

    Your not right in the head mate.. You make no sense... You said about the big I ams America jumping into the war because of nationalism.. Which as I said. You were wrong... And yet again, like I said the first time.. America is probably the most nationalistic country on the earth.. So what are you talking about.. They'll stop nobody.. They're more likely to have a second revolution pal.. Obamas approvals in the toilet, and he's becoming dictortorial with his "presidential orders"... Selective history amnesia..? Good one. Lol...


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    #1444
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    gandalf wrote: »
    And is he right?

    Come on mate. Don't try and put words in my mouth... I by no means romanticise Putin... He's a joke gangster like the rest... But, no matter, He didn't start all this, and he hasn't threatened anybody...


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    #1445
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    gandalf wrote: »
    Nice sidestep Jimeryan22.This is an armed insurrection mainly being perpetrated by outside forces. The government of the Ukraine have an obligation to maintain their legitimate borders and integrity by confronting these armed elements and unfortunately when these mercenaries hide within the civilian population then innocents will be killed.

    So you classify missile systems, anti-aircraft guns and armoured vehicles as small arms :rolleyes:

    Straight question to you jimeryan22, do you agree with the Russians leaving the border open, allowing men and weapons to pour into another country like they currently are with Eastern Ukraine?

    Oh yeah before I forget... The thing you said about weapons pouring in is also wrong... They've plenty in the country already.......

    http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2014/06/sending-weapons-ukraine-wont-help/85666/?oref=d-channelriver


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    #1446
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Come on mate. Don't try and put words in my mouth... I by no means romanticise Putin... He's a joke gangster like the rest... But, no matter, He didn't start all this, and he hasn't threatened anybody...

    So you're saying that Russians are innocent bystanders then?


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    #1447
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Your not right in the head mate.. You make no sense... You said about the big I ams America jumping into the war because of nationalism.. Which as I said. You were wrong... And yet again, like I said the first time.. America is probably the most nationalistic country on the earth.. So what are you talking about.. They'll stop nobody.. They're more likely to have a second revolution pal.. Obamas approvals in the toilet, and he's becoming dictortorial with his "presidential orders"... Selective history amnesia..? Good one. Lol...

    Hang on you brought the discussion back to the US during Ww2 and I provided a link showing Russia engaged in far worse behaviour and you now deem it out of bounds. If you don't want to discuss past indegressions then don't go there.


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    #1448
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Oh yeah before I forget... The thing you said about weapons pouring in is also wrong... They've plenty in the country already.......

    http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2014/06/sending-weapons-ukraine-wont-help/85666/?oref=d-channelriver

    That doesn't prove weapons aren't being supplied by Russia though now does it ;)


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    #1449
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Your not right in the head mate.. You make no sense... You said about the big I ams America jumping into the war because of nationalism.. Which as I said. You were wrong... And yet again, like I said the first time.. America is probably the most nationalistic country on the earth.. So what are you talking about.. They'll stop nobody.. They're more likely to have a second revolution pal.. Obamas approvals in the toilet, and he's becoming dictortorial with his "presidential orders"... Selective history amnesia..? Good one. Lol...

    Yellow card for being rude and aggressive...red card for being rude and aggressive...next up is a short ban (say 3 days) for being rude and aggressive.

    Word of advice: when you find yourself typing "mate" or "pal" in a post, step away from the keyboard.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #1450
    Jonny7
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Yeah they did yeah... That's why the new guy. Chocolate king worked as one of yanukovychs buddy's, look it up.. And is also just as corrupt.. Again look it up...

    Candidates from all spectrums applied, including far-right, Communist and pro-Russian

    The elections that have been held were widely seen as fair and transparent

    The Ukrainians have voted this guy in and it doesn't matter how rich he is, JFK was rich - what matters is if he will help fix Ukraine and bring them a better future

    If he doesn't, you can be very sure they will have no qualms about ejecting him - and he knows that
    If you can't understand the nuland/ngo's/link. Us involvement I can't help you jonny.. I'll find ngo's for you now then I'm done.. Same old **** on this thread and it's getting real boring
    http://www.ned.org/where-we-work/eurasia/ukraine

    What has this particular NGO actually done in Ukraine that you are so opposed to?


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    #1451
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    gandalf wrote: »
    So you're saying that Russians are innocent bystanders then?

    Did I...? No I didn't. Read my last post again... And please, stop trying to know how someone else thinks... Your a mile off


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    #1452
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Did I...? No I didn't. Read my last post again... And please, stop trying to know how someone else thinks... Your a mile off

    I'm just trying to figure out why you cannot see that Russia's actions are not helping the situation in Eastern Ukraine but are making it far worse and far more dangerous for the Ukrainians they claim to "care" about and making Europe far more dangerous for us Europeans. The biggest bad bear at the moment is not America.


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    #1453
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    gandalf wrote: »
    I'm just trying to figure out why you cannot see that Russia's actions are not helping the situation in Eastern Ukraine but are making it far worse and far more dangerous for the Ukrainians they claim to "care" about and making Europe far more dangerous for us Europeans. The biggest bad bear at the moment is not America.
    I've never said at any point in this entire thread that Russia is not without its own blame in all this... But I am no Russian sympathiser I've just seen again throughout this whole thread nothing but anti Russian sentiment... That's pretty sickening, as is the west is without shame in this... People have done nothing but talk up us and eu as if they're are saints... They're as corrupt.. I just don't live in this little perfect eu world where we in the west are the goodies and Russians the baddies... I mean. It's kiddie ****.. Surely people can use their brain cells and see it's not so black and white... And with the stuff coming out over the past months with regards to the us's actions I won't pretend ...
    I was in the army long enough to see my share of **** in the world in multiple country's around the world... So I won't pretend any of them are any good... Corrupt elite leading us ALL to a very dark part of history.. I won't defend them while they do it.. And point fingers at other nations peoples...


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    #1454
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Candidates from all spectrums applied, including far-right, Communist and pro-Russian

    The elections that have been held were widely seen as fair and transparent

    The Ukrainians have voted this guy in and it doesn't matter how rich he is, JFK was rich - what matters is if he will help fix Ukraine and bring them a better future

    If he doesn't, you can be very sure they will have no qualms about ejecting him - and he knows that





    What has this particular NGO actually done in Ukraine that you are so opposed to?


    I mentioned his corruption jinny. Not his money... Again. Look up his history


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    #1455
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    I've never said at any point in this entire thread that Russia is not without its own blame in all this... But I am no Russian sympathiser I've just seen again throughout this whole thread nothing but anti Russian sentiment... That's pretty sickening, as is the west is without shame in this... People have done nothing but talk up us and eu as if they're are saints... They're as corrupt.. I just don't live in this little perfect eu world where we in the west are the goodies and Russians the baddies... I mean. It's kiddie ****.. Surely people can use their brain cells and see it's not so black and white... And with the stuff coming out over the past months with regards to the us's actions I won't pretend ...
    I was in the army long enough to see my share of **** in the world in multiple country's around the world... So I won't pretend any of them are any good... Corrupt elite leading us ALL to a very dark part of history.. I won't defend them while they do it.. And point fingers at other nations peoples...

    Ok let me state this for one last time.

    I don't see proof US boots on the ground in the Ukraine. I don't see proof that EU boots are on the ground in the Ukraine. There is plenty of proof that there are Russian boots on the ground. Some of the major players in the Pro-Russian Sepratist movement are RUSSIAN. There is nothing simplistic or childlike about that. It is a fact. You seem to have issues with accepting these facts and condemning this and are intent on throwing up smokescreens about a corrupt world elite conspiracy.


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    #1456
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    gandalf wrote: »
    Hang on you brought the discussion back to the US during Ww2 and I provided a link showing Russia engaged in far worse behaviour and you now deem it out of bounds. If you don't want to discuss past indegressions then don't go there.

    Sorry..? I think you'll find, you brought the conversation to ww1 with your statement... Not me..


    Your statement:
    What I am seeing is a mirror of a situation we had in Europe 76 years ago where a country wanted to rebuild an Empire it had lost and the other powers in place ignored them and millions of people paid the ultimate price.


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    #1457
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    gandalf wrote: »
    Ok let me state this for one last time.

    I don't see proof US boots on the ground in the Ukraine. I don't see proof that EU boots are on the ground in the Ukraine. There is plenty of proof that there are Russian boots on the ground. Some of the major players in the Pro-Russian Sepratist movement are RUSSIAN. There is nothing simplistic or childlike about that. It is a fact. You seem to have issues with accepting these facts and condemning this and are intent on throwing up smokescreens about a corrupt world elite conspiracy.

    And you said to me I don't read..?
    Where did I say us or eu boots on ground...???????? Show me
    Of course there is Russians there it's in their back garden for Christ sake...
    I'm intent on no such thing.. You just keep misquoting don't you


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    #1458
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Sorry..? I think you'll find, you brought the conversation to ww1 with your statement... Not me..

    BTW that's WW2 and as a comparison it is extremely valid where a aggressive nationalistic country laid claim and took over territory in another country without the permission of that country.

    A very valid and apt comparison.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/461770/Expert-likens-possible-Putin-action-on-Ukraine-to-Hitler-s-1938-move-on-Czechoslovakia


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    #1459
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    And you said to me I don't read..?
    Where did I say us or eu boots on ground...???????? Show me
    Of course there is Russians there it's in their back garden for Christ sake...
    I'm intent on no such thing.. You just keep misquoting don't you

    You're seem to be implying that its the US and EU's fault that this situation exists. The country outside the Ukraine that is most responsible for this mess is Russia and thank you I take this statement as your admission of this.


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    #1460
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    gandalf wrote: »
    Ok let me state this for one last time.

    I don't see proof US boots on the ground in the Ukraine. I don't see proof that EU boots are on the ground in the Ukraine. There is plenty of proof that there are Russian boots on the ground. Some of the major players in the Pro-Russian Sepratist movement are RUSSIAN. There is nothing simplistic or childlike about that. It is a fact. You seem to have issues with accepting these facts and condemning this and are intent on throwing up smokescreens about a corrupt world elite conspiracy.
    It was plenty Irish volunteers fighting during Spanish war - should Ireland be blamed for support of pro-Stalin regime?


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    #1461
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    gandalf wrote: »
    You're seem to be implying that its the US and EU's fault that this situation exists. The country outside the Ukraine that is most responsible for this mess is Russia and thank you I take this statement as your admission of this.

    You do that. You've been taking what you want from what I say all along anyway...


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    #1462
    Elmer Blooker
    Registered Users Posts: 6,125 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    gandalf wrote: »
    Ok let me state this for one last time.

    I don't see proof US boots on the ground in the Ukraine. I don't see proof that EU boots are on the ground in the Ukraine. There is plenty of proof that there are Russian boots on the ground. Some of the major players in the Pro-Russian Sepratist movement are RUSSIAN. There is nothing simplistic or childlike about that. It is a fact. You seem to have issues with accepting these facts and condemning this and are intent on throwing up smokescreens about a corrupt world elite conspiracy.
    Yes, they are Russian - ethnic Russians born and bred in Eastern Ukraine who fear with justification the extreme nationalists in the Kiev government.
    The US is too smart to put "boots on the ground" in Ukraine but they certainly have "advisors" aka CIA lurking in the background. By the way the Provisional IRA waged a campaign for years by smuggling weapons from the Republic into Northern Ireland without the complicity and support of any Dublin government. It is very easy to smuggle weapons across a border if an organization is dedicated to a cause.
    * It is NOT my intention to debate the NI conflict.


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    #1463
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    gandalf wrote: »
    BTW that's WW2 and as a comparison it is extremely valid where a aggressive nationalistic country laid claim and took over territory in another country without the permission of that country.

    A very valid and apt comparison.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/461770/Expert-likens-possible-Putin-action-on-Ukraine-to-Hitler-s-1938-move-on-Czechoslovakia

    Like I said. YOU brought it up... Not me... And it's in no way comparable so carry on...


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    #1464
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    Yes, they are Russian - ethnic Russians born and bred in Eastern Ukraine who fear with justification the extreme nationalists in the Kiev government.
    The US is too smart to put "boots on the ground" in Ukraine but they certainly have "advisors" aka CIA lurking in the background. By the way the Provisional IRA waged a campaign for years by smuggling weapons from the Republic into Northern Ireland without the complicity and support of any Dublin government. It is very easy to smuggle weapons across a border if an organization is dedicated to a cause.
    * It is NOT my intention to debate the NI conflict.

    And the Chechens are they there as well?

    What about Russian citizens like Aleksandr Borodai, Aleksandr Mozhayev and Igor Girkin all in the thick of action?

    Its very easy to smuggle arms across the border when Russia is complicit in the whole operation you mean ;)


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    #1465
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Like I said. YOU brought it up... Not me... And it's in no way comparable so carry on...

    It is totally comparable to the current situation. In fact it nearly appears as an exact mirror of the operation 76 years ago.


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    #1466
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    gandalf wrote: »
    It is totally comparable to the current situation. In fact it nearly appears as an exact mirror of the operation 76 years ago.

    No. No it doesn't...


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    #1467
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    No. No it doesn't...

    Explain how it isn't. I have numerous articles here from different commentators and politicians who have also drawn that conclusion. Please enlighten us how it isn't the same then?

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/schaeuble-compares-putin-moves-in-crimea-to-policies-of-hitler-a-961696.html

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-abrams/crimea-ukraines-sudetenland_b_4887131.html

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116875/hillary-clinton-compares-putin-hitler-over-crimea-ukraine

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-ukraine-carries-the-echoes-of-sudetenland/2014/03/10/36ba5b6c-a873-11e3-8599-ce7295b6851c_story.html

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/21/world/europe/prince-charles-putin-hitler-comparison/


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    #1468
    vadzen
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭vadzen


    It is cheap show...
    If Putin is so independent and against USA and NATO:
    why did Putin allowed to open USA military base in Ulyanovsk???!!!
    why does Putin keep his daughters abroad safety?
    why does Putin keep Russian money in USA?
    why does Putin keep so close Ben Lazar?
    why did Obama not block Putin visa to USA?
    Questions for thinking (not repeating other words) people only. I am not waiting for answers.

    War is good choice to switch attention from internal economical and political problems outside.

    In this political show people, include civilian people, are dying, really dying.
    Reason for that is just 1. They have voted for independence from Ukraine and Russia.


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    #1469
    Jonny7
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    I mentioned his corruption jinny. Not his money... Again. Look up his history
    Yeah they did yeah... That's why the new guy. Chocolate king worked as one of yanukovychs buddy's, look it up.. And is also just as corrupt.. Again look it up...

    He wasn't "Yanukovych's buddy", you appear to be mixing up names at this point

    I doubt he's squeaky clean, likewise I doubt the Ukrainian majority who overwhelming voted for him over the other candidates are in the dark about his past.

    But claiming he is "just as corrupt" as a man who has stolen billions and is wanted by several countries on serious laundering charges is perhaps a bit over the top

    We'll see how he performs - he'll certainly be under a lot of scrutiny, and he's in a very un-enviable position of trying to right a wrecked economy in one of the most corrupt countries in the world, even more so than their powerful neighbour who appear to be doing everything in their power to destabilise Ukraine

    Ukrainians have had to sit there and watch neighbours like Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, even Romania grow at an almost exponential rate - while they have remained relatively one of the worst performing countries in the region, and that includes an effing dictatorship next door - they've had close ties with Russia for 20 years and it's led to little or no growth, they want to try Europe

    Apparently doing so is some sort of crime under Russia's eyes whom appear to view Ukraine as a restless province to be punitively punished rather than the sovereign country which they are

    The people of Ukraine have democratically chosen a man who is choosing to do more business with the "West". They are an independent country and it's clearly their right to do so.


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    #1470
    Elmer Blooker
    Registered Users Posts: 6,125 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    interesting to note that chocolate king President Porochenko has declared that he has no intention of selling his own private TV Channel 5.
    Why oh why would the President of a European democracy want his own private TV channel? ....... plus ca change! :rolleyes:


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    #1471
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    [...] Putin [...] didn't start all this, and he hasn't threatened anybody...
    Getting back to this thread a little late, and I suspect it's pointless to do so, but you seem entirely unaware that (a) Russia invaded Crimea and (b) the Duma has passed legislation "permitting" the Russian army to invade mainland Ukraine and (c) the Russian border with Ukraine seems unusually porous to hundreds of heavily armed militants - something quite odd in a country with Russia's reputation for blocking easy travel in and out of the country.


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